The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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First of all CTC are not a mickey mouse company.
CTC are part of the "top 4" - CTC, Oxford, FTE, Cabair
Regardless of what the glossy brochures say, you will NOT get a job at 250hrs with a shinny jet operator.
NOw we start the most boring thread ever.
Why go integrated? Why the rush? Why not go modular - pay as you fly rather than risking Mummy and Daddy's nice little semi?
I've been nice with my reply. Why go integrated? Especially now?
CTC are part of the "top 4" - CTC, Oxford, FTE, Cabair
Regardless of what the glossy brochures say, you will NOT get a job at 250hrs with a shinny jet operator.
NOw we start the most boring thread ever.
Why go integrated? Why the rush? Why not go modular - pay as you fly rather than risking Mummy and Daddy's nice little semi?
I've been nice with my reply. Why go integrated? Especially now?
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the big advantage I see for CTC is that you get a type rating without having to fork out £20,000 (as far as I understand please somebody correct me if I am wrong). If I went with FTE or Oxford it would cost me £80,000 and still no guarantee of a type rating.
NO NO NO.
NO NO NO.
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Really BSmuppet? I thought that at least was one of the only PR things that CTC do deliver on, with my friend in EZY not having had to pay for type rating whereas others do.
I find it a bit disconcerting that the only people advocating training at the moment are those going through selection. Are there any trained/training pilots who would consider now a suitable time as any other to enter training? Espeically with the extra 9 grand looming if I did decide to delay my entry.
I find it a bit disconcerting that the only people advocating training at the moment are those going through selection. Are there any trained/training pilots who would consider now a suitable time as any other to enter training? Espeically with the extra 9 grand looming if I did decide to delay my entry.
Jimmbo, if you read back through the previous few pages of this thread you will see that there a number of ex-cadets and current cadets who post regularly. I'm sure any of them will be pleased to help if you have specific questions about the course. As I said in an earlier post, the people who have been there and done it are the ones you are most likely to get straight answers from - not the ones trying to get you to part with £60k (or even £69k!)
That's very interesting about the bond going up by £9k. Seems strange when in the past they had people fighting to get in, and now people are having to fight just to get the finance. Whatever you do - and this applies to anyone reading - do NOT let this force you into making a decision about committing to the course before you are ready to.
£69,000... With the £7k foundation course, this means it's now going to total £76k (unless they're re-including the foundation course in the total cost.) That's £12,000 more than it was two and a half years ago. In the middle of a recession as well!
Something sounds strange to me.
That's very interesting about the bond going up by £9k. Seems strange when in the past they had people fighting to get in, and now people are having to fight just to get the finance. Whatever you do - and this applies to anyone reading - do NOT let this force you into making a decision about committing to the course before you are ready to.
£69,000... With the £7k foundation course, this means it's now going to total £76k (unless they're re-including the foundation course in the total cost.) That's £12,000 more than it was two and a half years ago. In the middle of a recession as well!
Something sounds strange to me.
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One more thing,
I wrote a slightly tongue-in-cheek post earlier on another thread. Can't remember what one.
Basically, it pointed out that when it comes to hiring (even when the market picks up), would the Chief Pilot/HR. team have much confidence in the decision making abilities of a guy who signed up to an Integrated scheme at the height of a recession where "experts" (contradiction in terms I know) say it will take a few years for us to get out of it?
Something to bear in mind - without going into an integrated vs mod debate. Discuss
I wrote a slightly tongue-in-cheek post earlier on another thread. Can't remember what one.
Basically, it pointed out that when it comes to hiring (even when the market picks up), would the Chief Pilot/HR. team have much confidence in the decision making abilities of a guy who signed up to an Integrated scheme at the height of a recession where "experts" (contradiction in terms I know) say it will take a few years for us to get out of it?
Something to bear in mind - without going into an integrated vs mod debate. Discuss
BSMuppet, from Jimmbo's first post it sounds very much to me like he's undergoing selection for Wings Cadets, not Wings ATP. The bit about "wanting to start pilot training for 10 years" is a clue.
Those two lines from your post suggest you are confusing the CTC Wings ATP scheme, and the Airline Training Partnership ATP (nothing to do with CTC) scheme. That's how it comes across anyway. Can we keep this thread on the subject of Wings Cadets, to avoid confusion?
EDIT to add:
For clarity, and to clear up a common misconception:
"CTC Wings" encompasses both Cadets and ATP. Cadets is 0-fATPL, ATP is for those who already have CPL/IR. Confusion starts to arise when people refer to them as "Wings" and "ATP". This is incorrect - the CTC ATP course is a part of the Wings Scheme. And to the best of my knowledge, EZY's relationship with CTC is intact.
Now, back to talking about the cadet scheme...!
I may be wrong but I think you are confusing the CTC Wings and the CTC ATP.
apparently ATP & EZY are not having the best relationship at present.
EDIT to add:
For clarity, and to clear up a common misconception:
"CTC Wings" encompasses both Cadets and ATP. Cadets is 0-fATPL, ATP is for those who already have CPL/IR. Confusion starts to arise when people refer to them as "Wings" and "ATP". This is incorrect - the CTC ATP course is a part of the Wings Scheme. And to the best of my knowledge, EZY's relationship with CTC is intact.
Now, back to talking about the cadet scheme...!
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the point is this - from the FAQ
• Am I guaranteed a job?
No airline sponsorship programme guarantees a job. The commitment we give is that, subject to a satisfactory performance in training and no change to our partner airline recruitment plans, we will make every effort to ensure that our graduates are placed through us
SO your question to me:
I thought that at least was one of the only PR things that CTC do deliver on, with my friend in EZY not having had to pay for type rating whereas others do
..is purely based on whether you get a job with a partner airline. Now this is the same with all of the Top 4.
No one guarantees a job. You really need to explain this to you parents first.
• Am I guaranteed a job?
No airline sponsorship programme guarantees a job. The commitment we give is that, subject to a satisfactory performance in training and no change to our partner airline recruitment plans, we will make every effort to ensure that our graduates are placed through us
SO your question to me:
I thought that at least was one of the only PR things that CTC do deliver on, with my friend in EZY not having had to pay for type rating whereas others do
..is purely based on whether you get a job with a partner airline. Now this is the same with all of the Top 4.
No one guarantees a job. You really need to explain this to you parents first.
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Jimmbo,
Is there a reason why you must start in training this year? Why not pass selection and wait 12 months and see how CTC cope with the downturn? Although CTC will try and paint the glossy 'sponsorship' route, they are simply a business, and you pay for the training. There is no sponsorship.
Also, one has to be mindful that in any normal business producing a product, output is varied with demand. My airline has cut back on routes this past winter due to poor yields, aircraft manufacturers are scaling back production, but CTC is steaming full ahead.
With a vastly reduced demand for their output (their trained pilots) CTC are continuing to pump out newly qualified cadets. Of course, their business will only survive with positive cash flow, and hence they need cadets. However, long-term, it is simply not sustainable. My airline has just over 300 pilots and 31 aircraft. We have hired 5 people (not from CTC!) in the recent months, only on short-term contracts, simply because we haven't bought any new aircraft, and no-one is leaving, since no-one is recruiting. Monarch has a similar number of pilots. There is not a never ending demand for pilots. Once airlines no longer expand their fleets, recruitment slows considerably, and in some cases airlines retrench.
Soon the UK will be full of pilots with 400hrs on an Airbus, and a lot of debt. Once EZY stop expanding their fleet, then there will not be a need for summer only contracts either, then what will happen? CTC business model is premised on expanding airlines, and the wheels come off their scheme once that stops but they keep the output of cadets geared to the needs of adding 2/3 aircraft per month. In normal sponsorship schemes, the output is matched pretty much to the needs of the airline, hence why in the past the BA/BMI schemes came and went as the needs of their business changed.
My advice to you is wait and see.
Is there a reason why you must start in training this year? Why not pass selection and wait 12 months and see how CTC cope with the downturn? Although CTC will try and paint the glossy 'sponsorship' route, they are simply a business, and you pay for the training. There is no sponsorship.
Also, one has to be mindful that in any normal business producing a product, output is varied with demand. My airline has cut back on routes this past winter due to poor yields, aircraft manufacturers are scaling back production, but CTC is steaming full ahead.
With a vastly reduced demand for their output (their trained pilots) CTC are continuing to pump out newly qualified cadets. Of course, their business will only survive with positive cash flow, and hence they need cadets. However, long-term, it is simply not sustainable. My airline has just over 300 pilots and 31 aircraft. We have hired 5 people (not from CTC!) in the recent months, only on short-term contracts, simply because we haven't bought any new aircraft, and no-one is leaving, since no-one is recruiting. Monarch has a similar number of pilots. There is not a never ending demand for pilots. Once airlines no longer expand their fleets, recruitment slows considerably, and in some cases airlines retrench.
Soon the UK will be full of pilots with 400hrs on an Airbus, and a lot of debt. Once EZY stop expanding their fleet, then there will not be a need for summer only contracts either, then what will happen? CTC business model is premised on expanding airlines, and the wheels come off their scheme once that stops but they keep the output of cadets geared to the needs of adding 2/3 aircraft per month. In normal sponsorship schemes, the output is matched pretty much to the needs of the airline, hence why in the past the BA/BMI schemes came and went as the needs of their business changed.
My advice to you is wait and see.
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or.....
go mod!!! Take a few years doing weekends ready for 2012/2013. With very little debt and with no risk to Mommy and daddy's retirement plans.
Unless you have VERY rich parents, getting your parents to sacrifice 30/40 years of hard work is perhaps the most selfish thing anyone can do, especially when there is a recession on!
Honestly, I don't want to start a cat fight here, but who would hire you when you (and others) make decisions such as this?
go mod!!! Take a few years doing weekends ready for 2012/2013. With very little debt and with no risk to Mommy and daddy's retirement plans.
Unless you have VERY rich parents, getting your parents to sacrifice 30/40 years of hard work is perhaps the most selfish thing anyone can do, especially when there is a recession on!
Honestly, I don't want to start a cat fight here, but who would hire you when you (and others) make decisions such as this?
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Thank you for the input guys,
I certainly have no wish to ruin my parent's hard work BSmuppet. Since my partner I hopefully should be in a position to afford our own mortgage this year, if I pass selection and hold fire at least a year I can see that I would be in a far better position financially and job security-wise (although it is mildly crushing as I had in my mind a July start).
In the long term, a 9 grand increase does not bother me so much if I am relatively safe in the knowledge of my chances of gaining permanent employment at the end of training.
With all this in mind, would you support waiting 1 year before joining the wings program or go modular instead. I prefer the idea of integrated partly as I am admittingly a little lost in how one would progress through a modular route. But it also appears that those through integrated schemes have seniority in the holding pools. Is this no longer the case?
I certainly have no wish to ruin my parent's hard work BSmuppet. Since my partner I hopefully should be in a position to afford our own mortgage this year, if I pass selection and hold fire at least a year I can see that I would be in a far better position financially and job security-wise (although it is mildly crushing as I had in my mind a July start).
In the long term, a 9 grand increase does not bother me so much if I am relatively safe in the knowledge of my chances of gaining permanent employment at the end of training.
With all this in mind, would you support waiting 1 year before joining the wings program or go modular instead. I prefer the idea of integrated partly as I am admittingly a little lost in how one would progress through a modular route. But it also appears that those through integrated schemes have seniority in the holding pools. Is this no longer the case?
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All that matters is that whoever you train with knows people who know people. CTC have an excellent track record in placing their cadets. The modular routes downside has been the lack of a obtaining the fast-track into airlines, and at the end of the day, it can be a risk.
Integrated don't get seniority, it is just that some airlines only take integrated out of flying school for the first job. For example, BA only take integrated onto their SSP scheme.
CTC is probably the best chance of getting a job, which is why many who apply to it do so. It saves them the hassle of job hunting!
Integrated don't get seniority, it is just that some airlines only take integrated out of flying school for the first job. For example, BA only take integrated onto their SSP scheme.
CTC is probably the best chance of getting a job, which is why many who apply to it do so. It saves them the hassle of job hunting!
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Unless you have VERY rich parents, getting your parents to sacrifice 30/40 years of hard work is perhaps the most selfish thing anyone can do, especially when there is a recession on!
Honestly, I don't want to start a cat fight here, but who would hire you when you (and others) make decisions such as this?
Honestly, I don't want to start a cat fight here, but who would hire you when you (and others) make decisions such as this?
Jimmbo, your question shows good fore-thought and shows you do have some care within you and for that you should be commended. Not least because of this comment:
I find it a bit disconcerting that the only people advocating training at the moment are those going through selection. Are there any trained/training pilots who would consider now a suitable time as any other to enter training? Espeically with the extra 9 grand looming if I did decide to delay my entry.
Now is quite possibly one of the worst times in the history of aviation to train to be an airline pilot, second only to starting anywhere from 12-15 months ago. That is the unfortunate reality. I certainly, really wouldn't recommend securing any loan above £30000 on your parents home, it is VERY, VERY dangerous. There or below the debt is going to be manageable with the average salary and living at home.
If your parents are that willing to commit and they do have enough equity have they considered remortgaging? The repayments would be alot less. I really don't know how viable that is though.
My head, my heart, my gut and my experience all tell me that this is not the time to be embarking on an integrated course.
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Jimbo,
The declaration that you admittedly do not know how to progress via the modular route sends alarm bells ringing as it shows you have done really little research in terms of:
1. What airlines take integrated/mods
2. How cheaper it is
3. How you can work and fly/study over 3 years.
The deal is this. When things were rosy, certain airlines would only take 250hr cadets from integrated courses. BA being one of the very few and they would have been cherry picked - i.e Oxford, FTE, CTC would have picked just a handful of cadets as they would not want to be embarassed - so 1st time passes for everything, 90% odd averages in the ATPLs etc. And pass their own tests.
Now going integrated for the very slim chance of even getting an interview with BA is a very big risk - unless you could afford it.
Now fast forward to today. BA do not hire staight-out-of-training cadets at the moment. And who knows how long this will take?
The way to get to a shiny jet - especially in today's market- is to start off at the very bottom like US pilots do. Crop spraying or something like that. Or if you have £30K lying about at the end of your training, you can hand it over to Mr O' Leary. In both cases, it doesn't matter whether you went integrated or modular. And in today's market, that isn't going to happen anyway.
Seriously, if you don't know themod way then read up on it. Only then can you make an informed decision.
You have to ask yourself whether you can afford the loan repayments whilst flying at the bottom end of the scale. My flight instructor can't even afford a beer after work. And he is one of the "lucky" ones who actually managed ot get a job! And it cost him £6K for the Flight Instructor course! Which he had to get another loan for.
The declaration that you admittedly do not know how to progress via the modular route sends alarm bells ringing as it shows you have done really little research in terms of:
1. What airlines take integrated/mods
2. How cheaper it is
3. How you can work and fly/study over 3 years.
The deal is this. When things were rosy, certain airlines would only take 250hr cadets from integrated courses. BA being one of the very few and they would have been cherry picked - i.e Oxford, FTE, CTC would have picked just a handful of cadets as they would not want to be embarassed - so 1st time passes for everything, 90% odd averages in the ATPLs etc. And pass their own tests.
Now going integrated for the very slim chance of even getting an interview with BA is a very big risk - unless you could afford it.
Now fast forward to today. BA do not hire staight-out-of-training cadets at the moment. And who knows how long this will take?
The way to get to a shiny jet - especially in today's market- is to start off at the very bottom like US pilots do. Crop spraying or something like that. Or if you have £30K lying about at the end of your training, you can hand it over to Mr O' Leary. In both cases, it doesn't matter whether you went integrated or modular. And in today's market, that isn't going to happen anyway.
Seriously, if you don't know themod way then read up on it. Only then can you make an informed decision.
You have to ask yourself whether you can afford the loan repayments whilst flying at the bottom end of the scale. My flight instructor can't even afford a beer after work. And he is one of the "lucky" ones who actually managed ot get a job! And it cost him £6K for the Flight Instructor course! Which he had to get another loan for.
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The sad thing is the T&Cs that present pilots once enjoyed are being eroded by this slapdash attitude to training. And its about time Integrated schools were regulated in terms of supply and demand.
The mere fact that integrated cadets come out with eye-watering debts means airlines can exploit the T&Cs. Ryanair will chuck you out once you become more expensive and will replace you with eager eyed pilots willing to pay 30K for a 737TR. easyJet starving its pilots of bloody tea and coffee.
And the lower T&Cs will be expereinced by us wannabees. This really needs to be sorted out. And it needs to happen now.
The mere fact that integrated cadets come out with eye-watering debts means airlines can exploit the T&Cs. Ryanair will chuck you out once you become more expensive and will replace you with eager eyed pilots willing to pay 30K for a 737TR. easyJet starving its pilots of bloody tea and coffee.
And the lower T&Cs will be expereinced by us wannabees. This really needs to be sorted out. And it needs to happen now.
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recession
people talk here as if CTC turn you out in a matter of weeks. It takes over a year to train! the economy will be in a different shape.
As for CTC raising their costs, its my understanding that they have been at £60,00 for last 10 years of however long its been, how can they possibly sustain £60,000! all the other FTO's are charging £80,000+ they have to raise their costs some where just to remain in business.
My argument is, as long as you can afford it without risking too much and as long as you have a back up plan, now is an excellent time to train, you wont start for at least 2-3 months so your looking at the best part of 2 years maybe more before you find yourself looking for a job, the situation is grim at the moment but it wont stay like this.
As for CTC raising their costs, its my understanding that they have been at £60,00 for last 10 years of however long its been, how can they possibly sustain £60,000! all the other FTO's are charging £80,000+ they have to raise their costs some where just to remain in business.
My argument is, as long as you can afford it without risking too much and as long as you have a back up plan, now is an excellent time to train, you wont start for at least 2-3 months so your looking at the best part of 2 years maybe more before you find yourself looking for a job, the situation is grim at the moment but it wont stay like this.
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Matty,
CTC make money from partner airlines too, so this should be added to the revenue obtained from a cadet.
CTC have a contract with EZY worth many millions, which can be seen from their press releases.
CTC make money from partner airlines too, so this should be added to the revenue obtained from a cadet.
CTC have a contract with EZY worth many millions, which can be seen from their press releases.
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Matty/Jimbo,
What I can't understand is why the rush?
Even if you have a crystal ball telling you that the recession will end 2 weeks before your MCC course, why would you knowingly get yourself into such a large debt? When you can simply do it the cheaper, more flexible and secure way?
Also jimmbo, without prying as its none of my business but if you hope to have a mortgage soon with your partner how can you afford the course?
Matty,
I saw your post regarding repayments for a 50-60K loan and for once, there were excellent replies but didn't the replies scare you?
The novelty wearing off yet having close to £2K coming out in loan repayments per month! Guys working as dustmen! Even dispatch guys who can't affort the "£1980" repayments per month. People giving you advice on going modular. Enjoying your PPL and assessing the market in 5-6 months time?
I haven't seen WWW for ages on here. I think he has come to the end of his tether.
What I can't understand is why the rush?
Even if you have a crystal ball telling you that the recession will end 2 weeks before your MCC course, why would you knowingly get yourself into such a large debt? When you can simply do it the cheaper, more flexible and secure way?
Also jimmbo, without prying as its none of my business but if you hope to have a mortgage soon with your partner how can you afford the course?
Matty,
I saw your post regarding repayments for a 50-60K loan and for once, there were excellent replies but didn't the replies scare you?
The novelty wearing off yet having close to £2K coming out in loan repayments per month! Guys working as dustmen! Even dispatch guys who can't affort the "£1980" repayments per month. People giving you advice on going modular. Enjoying your PPL and assessing the market in 5-6 months time?
I haven't seen WWW for ages on here. I think he has come to the end of his tether.
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Loan
On a loan of £40,000 repayments wouldn't be anywhere near £2000. I just think this is an excellent time to train, things will be different in 2 years, and if they are not I'm confident in my own ability to be able to find alternative employment and get by until the situation does get better, which it will.
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Matty,
it seems you have already made your decision and I wish you good luck and hope for all our sakes that what you said is true.
I won't take the mick out of your positivity about the recession. We never saw it coming (www did
) so likewise we might come out of it just as fast.
I honestly wish you good luck.
However I maintain that I do not agree with this method of training without any regulation to the supply and demand.
"I just think this is an excellent time to train, things will be different in 2 years"
Out of interest where did you hear that now is a good time to start training? In the latest AFE newspaper, there was a massive spread about how the industry is in a worse condition than ever. But at the bottom, there was an article from the top guy at Cabair saying that he believes now is the best time to start training.
I chuckled somewhat
it seems you have already made your decision and I wish you good luck and hope for all our sakes that what you said is true.
I won't take the mick out of your positivity about the recession. We never saw it coming (www did
) so likewise we might come out of it just as fast. I honestly wish you good luck.
However I maintain that I do not agree with this method of training without any regulation to the supply and demand.
"I just think this is an excellent time to train, things will be different in 2 years"
Out of interest where did you hear that now is a good time to start training? In the latest AFE newspaper, there was a massive spread about how the industry is in a worse condition than ever. But at the bottom, there was an article from the top guy at Cabair saying that he believes now is the best time to start training.
I chuckled somewhat
I'm moving house and going to ante natal classes and the builders are still in so I'm too busy for here...
You'll ruin your life if you start an 80k training course between now and 2010 at the earliest. I really mean that.
WWW
You'll ruin your life if you start an 80k training course between now and 2010 at the earliest. I really mean that.
WWW