One9iner

Beak.

Once again, a hugely presumptuous response.

Am I young? No. 26. Not old. but not a spotty teenager
Do I have more than one family member who has been through the CTC ATP mill? Yes
Am I weighing up my options, and researching all possible routed to license? Yes
Do I need a lecture from you about how ‘I’m in for a big shock’? No

Should I take what you say with a pinch of salt? Yes, more like a wheelbarrow load!!

Zippy,
There wasn't any of the "this is a great time to begin training" rubbish that I've heard from other FTO's desperate for your cash.

After a number of 'workshops' and a presentation by the guy who heads the Wings programme, (is it Tim? His name has escaped me at the moment) I approached him and asked a few questions;

Q. How large is the holding pool and at what rate is it growing.
A. Holding pool is around 70 or 80 at present but growing. Things aren't ideal.

Q. What is the situation surrounding the Easyjet flexi contract guys? After 6 months do they return to the holding pool, if so how long will you allow people to remain in the pool, without employment for until you turn your back on them?
A. They will return to the pool, we have not turned our back on anyone, and are not planning on doing so. You are an extremely valuable asset to us.

Q.What are you hearing from the market in terms of employment, who's hiring, who's looking to begin hiring in the next 2 years etc..?
A. BA we think are looking to begin hiring around April 2011. But not on any major volume.

Please note, I have not been through the CTC system, yet, and therefore know a lot less than the guys who have, and what I have written here is simply what was said.

Please also understand I am not planning on beginning training without any back up plan to pay back the bond if employment can't be found straight after completion. I'm also not planning on relying on 'Mummy and Daddy's' home to borrow against. I have my own property to gamble with

TheBeak

No it wasn't.

When did I say you weren't young? You were the one who said:

I was merely saying not everyone is 'young' that wishes to commence training. You were the presumptious one on this account.

I didn't say youi didn't. Again no presumption. And for the record it's long haul not hall. Easily made mistake though, just brought up to wind you up.

Did I say you weren't?

I don't care, as I said PPRUNE is read by many more people than you and responses apply to all people.

If the questions and answers you received are sufficient for you then go for it YOUNG man, it sounds like you have it sorted!

Kerosine

Children, please!

Mikehotel152

And that's the best news he could give you!?

Not much of a crumb of comfort to the 80 people in the pool! They'll be growing beards behind the counter at McDonalds by then!

Rollerboy

This makes fantastic reading, TheBeak always impresses me with his/her response sadly I feel very few posters on here will take much notice. Guys start to think long and hard about this career before jumping. Remember CTC are a business and want your money, with 80 or so people in the hold pool it will be a long time before you see a return.

Oh and is long hall the tunnel with no light at the end of it?

Roller

misterapilot

I went to the CTC open day too. This is what I heard:

Q. How big is your holding pool?
A. Around 50

Q. How many graduate from CTC cadets a year?
A. 168

Q. What happens to EZY pilots after 6 months if they are not taken on?
A. Go back to swimming pool and stay there. There is no time limit.

Q. Employment?
A. BA won't be hiring until 2011, but then they will need 400 pilots

Q. Finance?
A. HSBC stopped unsecured loans, but there are still ways to get the money.

Few interesting comments by the staff:
1. There is a shortage of pilots, just not here in Europe.
2. We all have seen this before - this industry goes in cycles and it will be up soon.
3. It's a good time to start training. Downturn always is.

Draw your own conclusions!

In general, had a very nice day. Had a go at A320 full sim - it was great.

One9iner, that guys name was Lee Woodward

GBB

That shortage of pilots must be on the moon I guess...
I know what sort of $hit they feed these CTC wannabes with... Telling them that in countries like Vietnam theres not enough pilots. I heard my self one CTC studnet telling annother guy that even in such a bad times you can still get a job on a jet in places like Vietnam and live "like a king" over there. I do not say that all CTC are as much naive as this guy but just ask you self what would you say/do to wannabes if you were to be in the schools owner shoes???
Yeah, right There might have NOT enough LOCAL pilots in Vietnam as people over there have no ways/money to train, but just have a look at their minimums.
Stop listening to all the rubbish that CTC people are telling you, of course they not going to tell you that once pool gets too big and people are there for too long, they will be removed (this might happen at the end of the day).

TheBeak

Thanks Rollerboy and I agree GBB.

Now I don't know but given a a month and a half ago someone said it was at 80 and 12-14 were finishing a month you can probably add the two together and you are nearer the mark. How can they offer such discrepancy? Based upon:

you should be able to predict the future growth.

That is just laughable.



The likes of Singapore Airlines don't seem to think so. What a joke.

Define soon. 5 years? Then maybe they are getting near the mark.

So when's a bad time? Because 2 and a three quarters years ago I was told that it was a superb time to start training and that was in the AMAZING times.

It's not just CTC, it's all the Integrated FTOs. They shouldn't have to sell you pilot training or it's timing, only the reason to do it with them over someone else.

Sky Wave

TheBeak

You seem a little bitter and twisted. Has CTC rejected you in the past? You seem to really have it in for CTC and it appears to be your personal mission to stop as many people as possible going there. You should focus your energy on positive things as positive people are far more happy than negative folk.

We are in very difficult times, people are losing their jobs in all industries and the airlines are no exception. With this being the case it's understandable that the wings pool will be swelling, but they've been in this situation before. In early 2006 the pool was empty and people were going straight to the airlines as soon as they completed their training (and I mean the very next day) but by June of 2006 this stopped and by November there were about 80 people in the pool. All of those 80 people got permanent jobs in 2007.

I personally believe that if you have the ability to make it as a commercial pilot CTC is the best place to go. I say this for 2 reasons. 1, having been the safety pilot for a brand new CTC Cadet on the 737 I can tell you that he was fantastic and I've heard similar stories from other pilots so I do believe that their training is very good. (I was an ATPer so wasn't trained by CTC) Secondly nearly every other first officer and numerous captains at easyJet are ex CTC, there's hundreds of us. I'm not sure where I'd be now if it wasn't for CTC but no other companies were answering my letters or acknowledging my CV despite the fact I had a fATPL. I honestly believe that I'd still be doing my old job.

Easyjet cannot afford to take on new pilots at the moment as they are struggling with seasonal issues, they have too many pilots spare in the winter and not enough pilots to run the summer programme. That said, they still have loads of aircraft on order and as soon as the market turns they will once again have a huge appetite for new pilots. Where do you think they will turn to when this happens? CTC and easyJet have a very good relationship and I'm sure many future cadets will go to easyJet and when easyJet decide they want pilots for permanent contracts they will keep their Cadets rather than training new pilots.

The only question really is when to start training (regardless of whether you train at CTC or not). Nobody can answer that because even the best business minds cannot agree on when the downturn will end. All I can say is I'd like to be in that pool when the market picks up and not 18 months of training away from it. You are suggesting 5 years which is in keeping with your negativity, my guess would be a year but then I'm usually very positive and I suspect neither of us have any basis for our predictions.


SW

GBB

SW,

I dont think anybody here is questioning the quality of the training you will get at CTC, but thats NOT the point.
Its 2009, not 2006 and the story will be totaly different this time around!
The point is that people listen way too much to marketing rubbish of FTOs (not only CTC but many others) and TRUST them with 70-80K like there is no tomorrow.

TheBeak

Hmmmm I don't know where you have that from?

For example I said:

And have said the same throughout.

And to say I am bitter and twisted? That's a bit strong. Someone doesn't really understand the words they are using......

I could by the same token say that you seem to have taken it all a bit too personally, you aren't a stake holder are you?

If you have only been safety pilot for ONE then you can hardly judge their output can you. I am really impressed that you were a safety pilot though so well done for getting that in. And besides I don't sispute they are probably VERY good at training pilots, as shown before by:

What you are suffering from is a serious perception issue. As I said you seem to take it all too personally.

Northern Rock, RBS, AIG et cetera were all fantastic, successful companies that all thought they couldn't go wrong, they kept on pushing their product and being risky. So your point about their past is largely irrelevant as pointed out very nicely by GBB.

I have always said I do not know the detailed ins and outs of CTC but I don't like marketing in the wrong way. All FTOs are very guilty of it. YES they should sell their ''training solution over another companies like OAA and FTE but NO they should not sell (force) the timing or be selective about the facts. No FTO should be, but they all are. Be under no illusion, there is NO PILOT SHORTAGE ANYWHERE nor will there be for a good few years. Take it or leave it.

If you are hell bent on doing pilot training via the integrated route then CTC should certainly be one of your top contenders. Happy now Sky Wave?

Artie Fufkin

Seriously??

TheBeak

Yeah seriously Fufkin, if you can't see it then you are delusional.

pilotguy08

I was at the open day on Saturday and thought it was pretty fun and informative, although can anyone enlighten me as to what the four questions your asked to reply to before attending selection relate to, will they be questions like "Give an example of a time you worked as a team" or "Why do want to be a pilot". Could anyone tell me what questions they got perhaps. Thanks.

99jolegg

Yep - pretty much as you described, just example based questions. Fairly straight forward if you put some time into them.

Rollerboy

Skywave

As a fellow pilot do me a favour and take off your rose tinted glasses for a minute.

No one is questioning the training CTC provide I am sure it is every bit as good as any other FTO/TRTO. We are however questioning some of the dubious information that seems to be getting banded around on this thread. CTC worked for you and for some years it worked for many other pilots but unfortunately as the old addage goes 'every dog has it's day' and as far as myself and others on this thread are concerned this dog has had it's day.

Ok things may pick up in the future but how can numbers like 400 pilots be banded about, BA don't even know how many pilots they need in 2010! How CTC know is a mystery to me.

The views on Pprune are just that, peoples views and we all have different ideas, sometimes they clash but we all have one thing in mind, and that is to help others.

Roller

Sky Wave

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there's life in the old dog yet.

What You, Me, CTC, BA or Easyjet do not know is when things will pick up, but when they do pick up I think the CTC scheme will be every bit as good as it was 2 years ago.

My personal opinion is that when things do pick up, airlines will look to expand and will want pilots yesterday. I accept that there are a lot of pilots that have recently been made redundant that may initially fill some of these vacancies but airlines need to get their demographics correct so they will no doubt also turn to low hours pilots. The lucky people will time their training just right and will be fully qualified and ready for a type rating just as this situation comes about.

It's just my opinion, rose tinted or not.

Rollerboy

Skywave

Agreed there will be an upturn eventually and there may well be life in the old dog yet. I just feel that CTC have in the past provided a good product when required at the right time, it may not be able to replicate it's past success when things pick up. That's not me having a go at CTC it's just my feelings on the current and future situation.

You have hit the nail spot on the head on two points; the first being the number of rated and high hours pilots currently on the market, many will almost certainly find jobs before cadets from any FTO. Secondly you mentioned the lucky people that's just it in the near future you need to be lucky.

High prices, high debt for not so high flying.

Roller

Sciolistes

I agree. I would also add despite the problems (and everybody in the industry is feeling it right now) CTC seem to be placing quite a few considering the circumstances.

Regardless of the passion of the posts by The Beak, WWW, et al, they do not know what is around the corner. As for any many CRM scenarios, you are all going to have to work with incomplete information to come to your decision and give due regard to all opinions regardless of how loud some maybe shouting.

TFlexMax80

BA know exactly how many pilots they need in 2010 - Zero!