Ryanair

[Busbar]

What a lot of people forget is one basic fact. An airline is a business. It is there to make MONEY! And that is the bottom line. That's all it will ever be about. They are not flying clubs there to fulfill our dreams of flying, that's what the local flying school is for!

Now, I disagree with the new terms and conditions that I read about on this thread for the cadets, but some of the replies e.g. from scroggs. are very valid points. You will not earn £70k+ when starting out in any profession, especially when you have 250 hours and a F/ATPL in aviation. But the long term prospects are good. The money, lifestyle, roster stability, promotion prospects are very good in FR and I would encourage anybody to look at the long term picture with them.

This is aimed at A320rider:

I follow your posts on this thread and others and I notice you are very unhappy with paying out money to develop your career. Ok, you have a point in as much that Airline's should be paying for their Pilot's training and conversions. Granted, however, the industry is not the same as it used to be, and the more you jump up and down about how unfair the whole thing is, it will not make a blind bit of difference! Because if you won't take the job with FR and pay for the TR, the next man/woman in the que will, so in effect all you are doing is serving yourself an injustice. To change things like paying for TR's, it has to be a massive stand of lots of people against companies, not individuals in the corner shouting how unfair the whole thing is. And even then, it will still be difficult.

I wish you guys all the best with it! (Hope that's not upset too many folks )

[mikeyblueyes]

NG dude quote :
...People on pprune talk about funding your own uniform, ID card and so on. What's 200-250 pounds in the grand scheme of things? You drop 40-50k on training and 20k more on the rating and then you moan about your ID badge? Come on...

It's always too much when you have to pay for a type-rating YOU DON'T GET and so don't get the job, for paying uniform + ID cards + travels ... BEFORE ALL TRAINING (and it worth more than 800 £).
As you don't seemed to be a pilot, at the top of your tower you'll have sometime to remember what Henry Ford - who create the Ford T - says : "The key of the success is to look at the matter the same way than your adversary as much as your's..."

[NG-dude]

Not quite sure what you're getting at here... if you do the type rating you get hired. If you don't pass the type rating you don't get hired, what's so strange about that? If you didn't make it through the training then you probably don't have what it takes so they let you go. Seem reasonable to me... And what exactly makes you think I'm not a pilot?

If you're waiting around for the good times to roll again, where training is paid for and there's a limo waiting to drive you to the hotel at the end of the day then I wish you the best of luck and infinite amounts of patience to go with it.

[mikeyblueyes]

I just wrote about people who don't respect the rules ..., the JAR/OPS regulations and take your money to throw you out as rubbish !! At the time you PAY for a type rating you have to get it and not TO BE FIRED AFTER THE 1ST ATTEMPT OF LST. So don't wrote about something you don't care.

ps : what's about limo and hotel ? who asked for this ?

[Cipri]

Originally Posted by Sky Goose

so be it, there is no shortage of work in the UK, and I will use this time to save more funds to see me through the 'dry' year that follows.
All the best to you all.
Sky Goose

Its not a matter of work shortage, you tell me who is going to employ you on a weekly basis, I remind you that during the nearly 7 months I have been waiting for the line training, I had to keep checking my roster every single Friday, because no one gave me a rough idea of my start date. that´s what makes it so painful! If someone had told me beforehand that it would take me so long I wouldn´t have left my previous employment.

[Sky Goose]

Cipri

I appreciate you frustrations, but would it not be possible to negotiate with your previous employer to return on a contract basis.
If bad came to worse you could flip burgers or pull pints.....
All im saying is that being in a bit of a sticky situation for a few months is worth it if you will soon be staring on your career, and it not instructing or doing air taxi work....it'll be flying a brand new 737-800...and be earning good money doing it in a few years. To me half a year in limbo for this is a small price.
BTW... your too young to be worring about an income....buy and old van and a surfboard and hang around Cornwall till you get the call

[jon652]

Im just wondering, Does nobody think Ryan air will change their view to pilots considering they now need pilots at all of their 15 Bases ? Would that idiot O'Leary seriously rather have his new 737's sat on the ground as he cant get pilots than perhaps help the new low-hours pilot just a little bit?

[Cipri]

Originally Posted by Sky Goose

I appreciate you frustrations, but would it not be possible to negotiate with your previous employer to return on a contract basis.
If bad came to worse you could flip burgers or pull pints.....
All im saying is that being in a bit of a sticky situation for a few months is worth it if you will soon be staring on your career, and it not instructing or doing air taxi work....it'll be flying a brand new 737-800...and be earning good money doing it in a few years. To me half a year in limbo for this is a small price.
BTW... your too young to be worring about an income....buy and old van and a surfboard and hang around Cornwall till you get the call

Hi Sky goose,

The thing is that I quit a flying job after 4 years, and trust me there are not much employers who you can negotiate with for a week to week contract, , so its not like I am just starting, and I really wish I could save enough money by pulling pints as you said, but I don´t think so. I also wish I didn´t have to worry about money a go surfing, but the loan goes in every month and if you add up other expenses, I need at least 1500 to get through. Although you are right about being in Limbo, its better than nothing, I just hope I end up in heaven rather than in hell.

Regards

[Sky Goose]

Originally Posted by Cipri

Although you are right about being in Limbo, its better than nothing, I just hope I end up in heaven rather than in hell.
Regards

Hey Cipri,

There is bound to be some positive movement on your side shortly, as I got a call from my MCC instructor that FR desperatly needed blokes to fill a March 7th slot for assesment.

I dont quite understand why they need people to fill the slots when they have all you blokes in the wings. Mabye gearing up for summer ?

Cant imagine youll be in limbo land for too much longer...? or am I missing something?

Good luck dude...

Goose

[LOOP2STAND1]

Originally Posted by Sky Goose

BTW... your too young to be worring about an income....buy and old van and a surfboard and hang around Cornwall till you get the call

Or you could take my right seat in FR and ill bugger off to the surf! after six months and 600hrs I need a break!

[glennox]

Do something else.

To all those who have been complaining about having a RHS to plank their ass in, please shut up. There are still a lot of low houred guys out there who would be quite willing to swap places with all of you. Yes you had to pay for your own TR, so what, the majority of us pay for our basic training also and earn no money for well over a year. Don't try and come back to me with "there were no passengers during your basic training". I suggest if you really want to stick it to the airlines talk young people out of coughing up 80k for the basic training.

There is no doubt that the industry is on an upward trend at the moment and if you don't like FR then quit!! With all due respect to FR they are the only airline in Europe that have been hiring en masse since the industry took a dive so I think they deserve a little credit for that. Yes you get the short end of the stick for a while but after that you'll be on good money and can build enough hours to go somewhere else if you wish.

I am still looking for my first RHS and would happily swap places with anyone in FR who hates where they are.

I'm getting really pi**ed off with these types of threads, if you don't want to work for FR don't f**king apply, leave it to those who want to fill the RHS.

[scroggs]

Work for free and sod the rest of you? Nice attitude! I'm sure you'd like my job, too - and would be prepared to do it for a great deal less than I get paid, if you could. Fortunately, they don't give jobs like mine to people who have no idea of their value in this business - yet. I hope they never do.

Scroggs

[Sky Goose]

Originally Posted by scroggs

Work for free and sod the rest of you? Nice attitude! I'm sure you'd like my job, too - and would be prepared to do it for a great deal less than I get paid, if you could. Fortunately, they don't give jobs like mine to people who have no idea of their value in this business - yet. I hope they never do.
Scroggs

Dear Scroggs,

I appreciate you have vastly more expirence than most and want to keep the T&C for the industry at a certain level. I just wonder if you know what it is like to hope for anything resembeling a flying job for almost 30 months after your qualification.
So what do you suggest we do, boycott Ryanair?....yeah right..then the next bloke in line gets the job and 2 years down the line he has 1500 hours 737, and I have 245 piston. And FR still have a list of 5000 applicants, allot of good that did !

I have worked very hard to secure the funds for a TR and dont really appriciate being told I'm destroying the T&C's of the industry, as alennox said, if you dont like the way FR do things, apply elsewhere.

ps We do appreciate the value of our work.....and we would dearly like the chance to get a job, some experience and then we will be rewarded for it.
Dont forget, FR do pay their experienced pilots above industry standards !

I await the onslaught ! Be gentle mr scroggs.

[glennox]

My Value €€€

Thanks for the support Sky Goose. As for Scroggs, you are obviously an experienced pilot with lots of hours under your belt, well done to you. I'm still in the low hour bracket like Sky Goose and if me getting my hours up means a little pain initially then so be it.

As Sky Goose points out FR do pay above the industry standard when you have hours under your belt.

I do value myself highly, that’s why I am willing to suffer a little to gain a hell of a lot. Please put yourself in my shoes and ask yourself what would you do.

It's not an attempt to undercut anyone. Me working for little or no money initially will have no impact on FO's with 500hrs or Capt's with 2000hrs in FR at all. Your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny. At the end of the day in trying to secure my first RHS I am thinking about myself and no one else as are all in the same boat as myself.

May I reiterate: if you don't want to work for FR "DON'T APPLY"

Good luck to you Sky Goose in securing a RHS and best of luck for the future Scroggs.

[LOOP2STAND1]

Maybe I should shed some light on my FR experience I was assesed in Feb 05 (about a year after finishing training) offered a place on a TR course at SAS in April base checked in June and started line training in late July and released on the line in September. For me the whole process worked fine. I really love the job and have found working for the company fine. (maybe because I have nothing to compare it to). My roster has been a rock solid 5-3 since starting on the line. The money is good once off the half sector pay crap and the majority of the skippers I fly with out of STN feel the same. We all winge and moan a little but as far as I can remember I have done that in every company I have ever worked in. I was low hours (300) modular.

[Cipri]

Originally Posted by glennox

To all those who have been complaining about having a RHS to plank their ass in, please shut up. There are still a lot of low houred guys out there who would be quite willing to swap places with all of you. Yes you had to pay for your own TR, so what, the majority of us pay for our basic training also and earn no money for well over a year. Don't try and come back to me with "there were no passengers during your basic training". I suggest if you really want to stick it to the airlines talk young people out of coughing up 80k for the basic training.
There is no doubt that the industry is on an upward trend at the moment and if you don't like FR then quit!! With all due respect to FR they are the only airline in Europe that have been hiring en masse since the industry took a dive so I think they deserve a little credit for that. Yes you get the short end of the stick for a while but after that you'll be on good money and can build enough hours to go somewhere else if you wish.
I am still looking for my first RHS and would happily swap places with anyone in FR who hates where they are.
I'm getting really pi**ed off with these types of threads, if you don't want to work for FR don't f**king apply, leave it to those who want to fill the RHS.

Please read your post and see who is the one complaining, the only difference is that the ones higher up the ladder complain about different things than you, since you have a different point of view. I am sure there are plenty of people who couldn´t spend those 80K in the initial training, like you said, and wish they were on your position to at least be elegible for a pilot job, and that doesn´t take away your right to complain... And just let you know, that if I complain its because I can, since a while ago I got called for an interview (based on my cv, since no one helped), passed the assement, made a big economic effort, and got my TR. And If you wish to swap places, note there is a process to get where I am now, it wasn´t like I woke up one morning and won the national lottery. By the way if you don´t like to read these posts, its easy, just don´t!

Sky Goose;

In fact since I finished my TR they have been running around 2 courses per month, which means there is a big and I mean really big pile of pilots waiting behind... Probably after April when the Line trainers have hours to spend, we´ll begin rolling, until then I guess we´ll have to sit back and relax.

[Cipri]

Originally Posted by LOOP2STAND1

Maybe I should shed some light on my FR experience I was assesed in Feb 05 (about a year after finishing training) offered a place on a TR course at SAS in April base checked in June and started line training in late July and released on the line in September. For me the whole process worked fine. I really love the job and have found working for the company fine. (maybe because I have nothing to compare it to). My roster has been a rock solid 5-3 since starting on the line. The money is good once off the half sector pay crap and the majority of the skippers I fly with out of STN feel the same. We all winge and moan a little but as far as I can remember I have done that in every company I have ever worked in. I was low hours (300) modular.

Totally agree, thats how it should have been, and its the reason why I am complaining about the 6 1/2 monhs (and incresing) that I have already been waiting to get the linetraining done. Imagine, loopstand1, I did my assement on May 05, and no one has bother to answer my enquiries, about my present situation. any way, well done, and hope to be as happy as you are soon

[glennox]

FR RHS.

Cipri it's great to hear the other side of the story form someone. I fully appreciate that people may have a bad experience working for a large organisation, not necessarily an airline I might add.

I am not trying to annoy anyone with my posts and if I offended anyone I apologise unreservedly.

Thanks for the posts in support of my point and good luck to you all.

[CamelhAir]

Me working for little or no money initially will have no impact on FO's with 500hrs or Capt's with 2000hrs in FR at all.

The naivety... When you have 500hrs or 2000hrs or whatever and some 200hr wonder is willing to do the same job you're competing for for half the money, come back then and tell us how you feel.

Scroggs - well said

[NG-dude]

Just curious about the people moaning about self-funded ratings.

I would argue that ANYONE who funds his/her initial training CPL/ME/IR is creating an unfair and degraded situation for the good folks who otherwise might've had full airline sponsorships available to them.

That's the argument right, that SSTRs undermine the people who went and became pilots and now watch newbies take "their" jobs through money?

Well... If nobody funded any training at all themselves what do you think airlines would be forced to do? Forgetting military pilots who by now get stuck with 10 year contracts when they start, the airlines would have to offer complete sponsorships to aspiring pilots. Naturally the selection process would be stern and fewer would get in but airlines would get theirs in the end.

So by funding your own training, effectively you're removing the sponsorships out there forcing the people who would've been good enough for sponsorships to also fund their own training. The reason we don't hear people screaming bloody murder about this is that a. nobody knows if they would've been selected for such a sponsorship and b. it's a much smaller group of people. The fact still remains though, that these people get shafted because YOU (and I) pay for training.

Which ultimately begs the question, who deserves to be a pilot?