Ryanair
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there is a pilots shortage actually, airlines ask for 3000-4000 eavy jet, with this kind of requirement, they are looking everwhere for pilots and then say they are desperated, but when you go see interviewers, the do not give a **** about you and bring on his desk the 2000-3000 CV.
this is the market, and as I have said in one of my posts, the world has a pool of pilots for many years.I think we are more than 15000 pilots only for Europe and airlines will just keep their minimum requirement at 2000-3000 hours.
this is like cinema in LA, many actors, few will be on the big screen.the rest of them will live with small jobs like taxi driver, truck driver,...or for bad paid TV advertising jobs.Still , hollywood say they have a shortage of actors...
and soon the car industry will say the same after kicking out 30'000 of workers.
about the job at ryanair, this is reserved for fortunate people, yes, they pay well (pilots pay well their Orealy!!)
unfortunately, I am too old to join them, but would I??? certainly not.
do not give up, airlines have a shortage of pilots....
this is the market, and as I have said in one of my posts, the world has a pool of pilots for many years.I think we are more than 15000 pilots only for Europe and airlines will just keep their minimum requirement at 2000-3000 hours.
this is like cinema in LA, many actors, few will be on the big screen.the rest of them will live with small jobs like taxi driver, truck driver,...or for bad paid TV advertising jobs.Still , hollywood say they have a shortage of actors...
and soon the car industry will say the same after kicking out 30'000 of workers.
about the job at ryanair, this is reserved for fortunate people, yes, they pay well (pilots pay well their Orealy!!)
unfortunately, I am too old to join them, but would I??? certainly not.
do not give up, airlines have a shortage of pilots....
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Maverick777 you posted a good explanation why things are going so wrong in this industry,there are other factors but lets stay on the thread and see how we get to the RHS at Ryanair.
On one end poeple are fighting to keep some of there T&C's in place(look at the SAS thread) on the other end poeple will except anything that is offered to them as long as they can fly(and most of the time it's a 737 or a A320 that we are after 1 year or less out of flight school).There are a lot of posts on self funding so lets leave that out of the discussion.
You describe how you basically went on your knees asking for a job regardless of pay etc etc, please let me fly i will sign anything you give me.
What i don't understand is why somebody wants to get in to flying so bad that they are willing to except whatever is offered, there are so many posts on here about FR and it looks to me that there are still enough poeple who say;i don't care i will do it anyway.You say you are looking at the long term.What do you think the long term is going to bring? Do you believe it's going to stop here or do you agree that the actions you take now will effect you and others in "the long term" ? You would fly for half of what you make now wouldn't you,even if it meant moving in with friends or parents for the next couple of years so you can fly ?
Anybody that wants to get in to flying these days has so many more options to research anything they want to know about this industry,just switch on the computer go to pprune and so many other sources and ask your self is this something i should do ? It's just a job and hard work most of the time with up to 900 hours a year!The good old days are gone and will not come back, even though i support the SAS guys i think they are fighting a loosing battle, SAS office tigers and others take notice of what is going on at FR and other places and they want to bring things in "line".
So why not do something else ? If i had to make a career choice today i don't think it would be a in aviation, do you really want this RHS so bad? why not make money in a other fields get a 25% share in a light airplane and take the wife out on a nice day and fly VFR down the UK coast?
Is there no self respect among people that want to get in to aviation these days? What do you think is so glamorous about the job today that you would be willing to do anything to get in? i am not trying to be sarcastic about this, it's a serious question.
Why on earth do you want to spend 50K in training, another 30k for a TR ,work for "free" etc etc, this will haunt you later on and we will see you and others back here asking what went wrong after you got a 1000 hours on the 737 at FR and could not get a good pay offer somewhere else to fly there 737's, because that's the thought isn't it, fly for free and pay now,i will make up for it later. There is a good change you wont make up for it an so in a few years we are back on here and ask what the F.ck went wrong? The bad seeds you put in the ground now you will harvest further down in your career when you believe that the payback time has come.
RHS to FR or any similar route, i don't think it's worth it. we will all find out the hard way!
On one end poeple are fighting to keep some of there T&C's in place(look at the SAS thread) on the other end poeple will except anything that is offered to them as long as they can fly(and most of the time it's a 737 or a A320 that we are after 1 year or less out of flight school).There are a lot of posts on self funding so lets leave that out of the discussion.
You describe how you basically went on your knees asking for a job regardless of pay etc etc, please let me fly i will sign anything you give me.
What i don't understand is why somebody wants to get in to flying so bad that they are willing to except whatever is offered, there are so many posts on here about FR and it looks to me that there are still enough poeple who say;i don't care i will do it anyway.You say you are looking at the long term.What do you think the long term is going to bring? Do you believe it's going to stop here or do you agree that the actions you take now will effect you and others in "the long term" ? You would fly for half of what you make now wouldn't you,even if it meant moving in with friends or parents for the next couple of years so you can fly ?
Anybody that wants to get in to flying these days has so many more options to research anything they want to know about this industry,just switch on the computer go to pprune and so many other sources and ask your self is this something i should do ? It's just a job and hard work most of the time with up to 900 hours a year!The good old days are gone and will not come back, even though i support the SAS guys i think they are fighting a loosing battle, SAS office tigers and others take notice of what is going on at FR and other places and they want to bring things in "line".
So why not do something else ? If i had to make a career choice today i don't think it would be a in aviation, do you really want this RHS so bad? why not make money in a other fields get a 25% share in a light airplane and take the wife out on a nice day and fly VFR down the UK coast?
Is there no self respect among people that want to get in to aviation these days? What do you think is so glamorous about the job today that you would be willing to do anything to get in? i am not trying to be sarcastic about this, it's a serious question.
Why on earth do you want to spend 50K in training, another 30k for a TR ,work for "free" etc etc, this will haunt you later on and we will see you and others back here asking what went wrong after you got a 1000 hours on the 737 at FR and could not get a good pay offer somewhere else to fly there 737's, because that's the thought isn't it, fly for free and pay now,i will make up for it later. There is a good change you wont make up for it an so in a few years we are back on here and ask what the F.ck went wrong? The bad seeds you put in the ground now you will harvest further down in your career when you believe that the payback time has come.
RHS to FR or any similar route, i don't think it's worth it. we will all find out the hard way!
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Good point you make regarding what do those seeking a first job thihk is so fantastic about flying commercially that they would seel their souls to get in.
Do not for a moment think that this job has anything in common with flying a light aircraft with friends on a day of you choice, that is a pleasure, this is a job. It has all the negative sides of most other jobs that you may have had, anti-social working hours, plenty of stress and fast diminishing terms and conditions. The Ryanairs of this world are well aware of the dreamers out there that think that operating a machine with jet engines is possibly the greatest thing they could ever do and therefore worth any sacrifice, either financial or in a personal sense. I know that many will take no notice until it is too late, its a shame that a work experience scheme is not available to try this industry for 6 months, that would change many peoples expectations believe me.
Do not for a moment think that this job has anything in common with flying a light aircraft with friends on a day of you choice, that is a pleasure, this is a job. It has all the negative sides of most other jobs that you may have had, anti-social working hours, plenty of stress and fast diminishing terms and conditions. The Ryanairs of this world are well aware of the dreamers out there that think that operating a machine with jet engines is possibly the greatest thing they could ever do and therefore worth any sacrifice, either financial or in a personal sense. I know that many will take no notice until it is too late, its a shame that a work experience scheme is not available to try this industry for 6 months, that would change many peoples expectations believe me.
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the negativity you portray is astounding!!!
The one reality that you really should consider though is that, while you seem to think that the appalling deal that FR will give will be short-term, that will not be the case. At what point do you plan to stand up to them and say, enough of the crap, now treat me properly??
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Hi
Just to get back to VC10's original question " how long to RHS after type rating",
hopefully it will be somewhat quicker now that CAE have been conducting the LST in addition to EMA since early January.
Willby
Just to get back to VC10's original question " how long to RHS after type rating",
hopefully it will be somewhat quicker now that CAE have been conducting the LST in addition to EMA since early January.
Willby
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I am not sure about other contributors on this thread but after nearly two years seeking a flying job, when FR offered me the chance of a JOB flying one of there aircraft I thought long and hard about my options. With the base check yet to do with no money coming in I find it hard. If you ask me now would I recommend the scheme I would say NO. Despite working on the grd for a large national airline for ten years (Eager Beaver take note!) and having an airline background I really struggled to find employment. I too am thinking long term. I totally agree that in Ryanair eyes us cadet pilots are the Latvian cabin crew equivalent. Ask me the same question in two years time when the blue book has turned green and I am starting to earn a very good salary you will probably get another answer.
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If anybody wanted to get a start in this industry what are we to do?
There are a lot of other companies recruiting. Have you tried them all?
People weren't born with 2,000hrs before FR decided to start screwing the market you know.
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An honest report to RHS at Ryanir please...
To VC10L1011, maverick777,
There is an other way or solution you didn't expect : paying for your type rating and getting ....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
I mean no type rating, no LPC, no more license after a partial pass LST - first attempt -. ARE YOU READY ???
I read threads posted by others and a lot of have their own story. Now I'm gonna tell you mine : as you is was ready to pay for my type rating and I paid for. As you they tell me the usual stuff about the job, the pay, the contract, ... seems nice after a very long unemployement period.
I started last January 2005 for a B737/800 type rating at EMA, finished ground training and 19 SIM sessions begining of June 2005 - not the 6 to 8 weeks expected first - and was FIRED after a 1st LST partial pass ...
The JAR/FCL - and FR training manual - expect that you have at least 2 attemps for passing the LST : NO WAY
.
For FR :
- it cost time so it means a lot a money, unacceptable for them
- the training manual has to be interpreted "on a certain way..." by DOB,
For the IAA :
- "Accordingly, and based on the relevant requirements of JAR-FCL, you should consider addressing your LST complaint to the Ryanair TRTO HoT who should be able to assist you." OK, but HE fired me,
I had to pass by a sollicitor to get my notice - 3 months after - and there is nothing to do about my type rapting : for the solicitors it's too long, too risky and too expensive, for the IAA : chek with your company and for FR : s.... you !
I paid 15.000 Ģ for a type rating + accomodations + uniform + ID card + travels .... FOR NUTS.
So the turn is down, everyone is happy, job well done.
I have no more licence, no job, a lot of debts for a type rating I will never get with FR, a strong wife - who support me every day - and a kid with special needs. That's for the human factors, but who care about them ?
You care about your future, OK.
But sometimes it doesn't works as you expected ... So are you still ready for ?
GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU
There is an other way or solution you didn't expect : paying for your type rating and getting ....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
I mean no type rating, no LPC, no more license after a partial pass LST - first attempt -. ARE YOU READY ???I read threads posted by others and a lot of have their own story. Now I'm gonna tell you mine : as you is was ready to pay for my type rating and I paid for. As you they tell me the usual stuff about the job, the pay, the contract, ... seems nice after a very long unemployement period.
I started last January 2005 for a B737/800 type rating at EMA, finished ground training and 19 SIM sessions begining of June 2005 - not the 6 to 8 weeks expected first - and was FIRED after a 1st LST partial pass ...
The JAR/FCL - and FR training manual - expect that you have at least 2 attemps for passing the LST : NO WAY
.For FR :
- it cost time so it means a lot a money, unacceptable for them
- the training manual has to be interpreted "on a certain way..." by DOB,
For the IAA :
- "Accordingly, and based on the relevant requirements of JAR-FCL, you should consider addressing your LST complaint to the Ryanair TRTO HoT who should be able to assist you." OK, but HE fired me,
I had to pass by a sollicitor to get my notice - 3 months after - and there is nothing to do about my type rapting : for the solicitors it's too long, too risky and too expensive, for the IAA : chek with your company and for FR : s.... you !
I paid 15.000 Ģ for a type rating + accomodations + uniform + ID card + travels .... FOR NUTS.
So the turn is down, everyone is happy, job well done.
I have no more licence, no job, a lot of debts for a type rating I will never get with FR, a strong wife - who support me every day - and a kid with special needs. That's for the human factors, but who care about them ?
You care about your future, OK.
But sometimes it doesn't works as you expected ... So are you still ready for ?
GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU
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I am highly surprised you got fired! There were two guys on my course that got a partial pass but they were not fired. I don't mean to insult anybody by saying this, but sometimes there are more hidden agendas behind getting fired. I have to say from my experience and all of my colleagues that joined with me, none of us had a problem at any stage with FR. I agree with what many of you say on this thread, but I can only tell you what my personal experience was and I read in disbelief sometimes what Ryanair are "supposedly" doing!
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Why do all the newbies earning the crap salary starting off with FR think it will get better for them down the line? Look at what busbar said, he can't believe the conditions for newbies compared to what it was like for him when he was starting off. Do you not think that by the time you get to busbar's stage that those conditions will have deteriorated as much?
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to busbar,
I was highly surprised too ...
There is no hidden agendas in this case, but maybe hidden truths, facts who needs to be denied for and by young pilots.
I'm an experienced pilot, used to operate worlwide, but unfortunatly for me, who doesn't find a pilot job for the last two years.
I performed a good LST partial pass CONFIRMED by the Instructor who was on the left seat... but the HoT decided another way before leaving for his week-end !
That's my life today and I can't denied these facts. So you believe me or not, it's on your way... but VC10L1011 asked for "an honest report to RHS ar Ryanair please..." .
I was highly surprised too ...
There is no hidden agendas in this case, but maybe hidden truths, facts who needs to be denied for and by young pilots.
I'm an experienced pilot, used to operate worlwide, but unfortunatly for me, who doesn't find a pilot job for the last two years.
I performed a good LST partial pass CONFIRMED by the Instructor who was on the left seat... but the HoT decided another way before leaving for his week-end !
That's my life today and I can't denied these facts. So you believe me or not, it's on your way... but VC10L1011 asked for "an honest report to RHS ar Ryanair please..." .
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Originally Posted by CamelhAir
I should have thought that was obvious. Apply elsewhere, fly TP, instruct. Absolutely no need to pay anyone again to fly if you put some effort in.
There are a lot of other companies recruiting. Have you tried them all?
People weren't born with 2,000hrs before FR decided to start screwing the market you know.
There are a lot of other companies recruiting. Have you tried them all?
People weren't born with 2,000hrs before FR decided to start screwing the market you know.
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Originally Posted by maverick777
You also watch your logbook fill up with 737NG experience!
ryanair has nothing to lose to get you out. they got your money and they have thousand of new applicants each year ready to take your seat.
do not believe because someone offers you a job, you will get the job. I know guys who have been kicked out after a few hours sim, or never start their training simply because they have decided to pay the company to work.
go for it, and good luck to you.
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Go for it Maverick777
I have also been qualified with my fATPL for over 2 years now.
Have been to one dissapointing interview where I had to compete with a coulpe of hundred blokes for a couple of jobs. This has been my only sniff at a job.
2 years ago I would also not have considered paying for my type, but you have to be realistic, if I would have done the RYR SSTR a couple of years ago I would be in a very good position now.
The Ryanair scheme is not all bad, you dont have to pay for your base check or line training, and the possiblity of permanent employment are good if you perform. When it comes to SSTR's this is the one to do.
I have been fortunate enough to get an invitation at assesment in the near future and hope dearly that I succeed and can finally get my career started.
If I have a 6 or 8month gap between type rating and line training....so be it, there is no shortage of work in the UK, and I will use this time to save more funds to see me through the 'dry' year that follows.
All the best to you all.
Sky Goose
Have been to one dissapointing interview where I had to compete with a coulpe of hundred blokes for a couple of jobs. This has been my only sniff at a job.
2 years ago I would also not have considered paying for my type, but you have to be realistic, if I would have done the RYR SSTR a couple of years ago I would be in a very good position now.
The Ryanair scheme is not all bad, you dont have to pay for your base check or line training, and the possiblity of permanent employment are good if you perform. When it comes to SSTR's this is the one to do.
I have been fortunate enough to get an invitation at assesment in the near future and hope dearly that I succeed and can finally get my career started.
If I have a 6 or 8month gap between type rating and line training....so be it, there is no shortage of work in the UK, and I will use this time to save more funds to see me through the 'dry' year that follows.
All the best to you all.
Sky Goose
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The 6-7 month wait for new F/Os in 2005 can largely be attributed to the fact that they had to re-train a lot of -200 skippers to their new aircraft. This has now been more or less completed, on top of that all crew hours will be reset in april which means line training captains will be there to get you through quickly. On top of that, summmer is coming up fast and they need all the pilots they can get ready to fly the line by then. The notion that Ryanair keeps you waiting on purpose "until they need you" is pure nonsense, they needed you yesterday.
Apart from a good income, stable roster and nice aircraft consider the fact that Ryanair are booming in a market where plenty of operators are struggling to stay alive. This company is in a position to wreak havoc on any market they choose in europe and pressure existing operators.
Of course there's a sting when you first join with plenty of negative cashflows but if you're in a position to cope with that and get past the initial hurdle then I say go for it. People on pprune talk about funding your own uniform, ID card and so on. What's 200-250 pounds in the grand scheme of things? You drop 40-50k on training and 20k more on the rating and then you moan about your ID badge? Come on... Not getting served coffee on board, having to bring your own lunch, these things are so minor you won't notice them. I'd rather pack my own lunch anyhow, you want to eat airlinefood 5 days in a row? No thanks.
Part of the success story is because of the fact that crews mind themselves concerning currency, uniforms, food, scheduling and so on. The organizational overhead becomes tiny compared to the oldschool operators allowing them to focus on what they should be doing which is flying passengers around.
Apart from a good income, stable roster and nice aircraft consider the fact that Ryanair are booming in a market where plenty of operators are struggling to stay alive. This company is in a position to wreak havoc on any market they choose in europe and pressure existing operators.
Of course there's a sting when you first join with plenty of negative cashflows but if you're in a position to cope with that and get past the initial hurdle then I say go for it. People on pprune talk about funding your own uniform, ID card and so on. What's 200-250 pounds in the grand scheme of things? You drop 40-50k on training and 20k more on the rating and then you moan about your ID badge? Come on... Not getting served coffee on board, having to bring your own lunch, these things are so minor you won't notice them. I'd rather pack my own lunch anyhow, you want to eat airlinefood 5 days in a row? No thanks.
Part of the success story is because of the fact that crews mind themselves concerning currency, uniforms, food, scheduling and so on. The organizational overhead becomes tiny compared to the oldschool operators allowing them to focus on what they should be doing which is flying passengers around.
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Originally Posted by NG-dude
Of course there's a sting when you first join with plenty of negative cashflows but if you're in a position to cope with that and get past the initial hurdle then I say go for it. People on pprune talk about funding your own uniform, ID card and so on. What's 200-250 pounds in the grand scheme of things? You drop 40-50k on training and 20k more on the rating and then you moan about your ID badge? Come on... Not getting served coffee on board, having to bring your own lunch, these things are so minor you won't notice them. I'd rather pack my own lunch anyhow, you want to eat airlinefood 5 days in a row? No thanks.
As for paying for uniforms, if you want me to wear your uniform you should pay for it. If you want me to pay for it, then allow me to get it at a tailor of my choice, with my own choice of lining and other details that enable me to express myself - even the RAF allowed that! The other items (pension etc) are negotiable in any line of work, but it's a sign of the imbalance between demand and supply of the kind of pilots Ryanair uses that these things are not part of the package.
Ryanair is free to offer whatever employment package it wishes, so long as it's within the law. If they get enough applicants, they're under no obligation to change that package and will, wherever they can, reduce the costs of employment by whatever means at their disposal. The money they save goes into the pockets of others in the organisation, make no mistake about that. The bottom line is profit, of course, but look at where the profit goes. If it's into equipment and improvements to customer service, all well and good. If the workforce gets to share in the profit, so much the better, as long as the pot is shared equitably. In too many companies it isn't, and senior management are rewarded way out of proportion either to their contribution or to the good of company morale.
You guys have a choice, though it might not look like it sometimes! Use it wisely.
Scroggs