Desperately in need of a job
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Desperately in need of a job
When we were young, dreaming to be a pilot and flying high in the sky seemed impossible but eventually, it did happened... Since that day on, I believe that anything can happen if you make the effort.
Now, when you're a pilot dreaming to work in an airline and getting in between the stewardess' legs, it never seemed impossible but I was wrong. Most airlines in the world wants 1000 over jet hours experience or at least a rating. It seemed stupid or should I say the flying academies we come from are at fault? I don't think so...
Most graduates comes out with a frozen ATPL, 200 piston hours and nothing less. Doesn't it sound silly when you hear an AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOTS LICENSE holder cannot get a job in an AIRLINE???!!! Reason is because he has lack of experience. What other choices does a young graduate has? Definitly he needs to work somewhere for a start to get experience don't they? Charter flight companies mostly uses multi-engines but still a piston engine. Not good enough for airlines still!!! Most graduates worked in charter companies, flying clubs, etc up to thousands of hours and when they applied for a job with an airline, they got F'd in the A.
If airlines in the world still remains stubborn of requiring high experiences from fresh gradutes, I wouldn't be shocked seeing a road sweeper, rubbish collecter or even a scavenger which all possess a Really Dead Frozen ATPL
Now, when you're a pilot dreaming to work in an airline and getting in between the stewardess' legs, it never seemed impossible but I was wrong. Most airlines in the world wants 1000 over jet hours experience or at least a rating. It seemed stupid or should I say the flying academies we come from are at fault? I don't think so...
Most graduates comes out with a frozen ATPL, 200 piston hours and nothing less. Doesn't it sound silly when you hear an AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOTS LICENSE holder cannot get a job in an AIRLINE???!!! Reason is because he has lack of experience. What other choices does a young graduate has? Definitly he needs to work somewhere for a start to get experience don't they? Charter flight companies mostly uses multi-engines but still a piston engine. Not good enough for airlines still!!! Most graduates worked in charter companies, flying clubs, etc up to thousands of hours and when they applied for a job with an airline, they got F'd in the A.
If airlines in the world still remains stubborn of requiring high experiences from fresh gradutes, I wouldn't be shocked seeing a road sweeper, rubbish collecter or even a scavenger which all possess a Really Dead Frozen ATPL
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As per usual someone makes a really valid point and gets shot down by the Plain speaking English Brigade !!.......Give the guy a bloodey chance. If you look carefully you will see Lanun is from Asia, so more than likely, English is not his first language and even if it isn't, his posting is well written and raises some valid points( Other than the stewardess comment). So timzsta try and pay a little more attention to the posting as a whole, rather than shoot holes in a few grammar mistakes !
Lanun, i agree in principle to what you are saying, but you will find at the moment Airlines to some degree have gone down this road , as there are so many low houred pilots on the market. If some of these have got a bit more multi engine experience, it makes it easier for them to take these individuals on. I doubt if a time will come (especially in the near future) where these companies will be knocking on the doors of lour hour Pilots as this forum alone demonstrates that the market is saturated.
sp
Lanun, i agree in principle to what you are saying, but you will find at the moment Airlines to some degree have gone down this road , as there are so many low houred pilots on the market. If some of these have got a bit more multi engine experience, it makes it easier for them to take these individuals on. I doubt if a time will come (especially in the near future) where these companies will be knocking on the doors of lour hour Pilots as this forum alone demonstrates that the market is saturated.
sp
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Actually Lanun, you don't hold a Airline Transport Pilots Licence, you hold a CPL/IR. There is no such thing as a Frozen ATPL, that's only a bull$hit marketing ploy to describe a person who holds a CPL/IR and has done the ATPL theory exams. When you have the requisite levels of experience, you may then apply for an ATPL.
Frankly at 200 hours, you shouldn't be allowed near an airline transport aircraft (and before all you 200 hr wannabes start screaming, I was in an airliner at 200 hours but I consider myself to have been completely unsafe at that time, not because I was any way below the standard expected but merely due to lack of experience. It takes at least 1000 hours to be trusted anywhere near an airliner in my opinion).
To the rest of you whinging about spelling and grammar, have you really nothing better to do. I've flown with plenty of pilots who can barely spell their own name but are excellent operators.
Frankly at 200 hours, you shouldn't be allowed near an airline transport aircraft (and before all you 200 hr wannabes start screaming, I was in an airliner at 200 hours but I consider myself to have been completely unsafe at that time, not because I was any way below the standard expected but merely due to lack of experience. It takes at least 1000 hours to be trusted anywhere near an airliner in my opinion).
To the rest of you whinging about spelling and grammar, have you really nothing better to do. I've flown with plenty of pilots who can barely spell their own name but are excellent operators.
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Is it just stewardesses you want to get between the legs off, or female pilots as well?
Those kind of attitudes went out of commercial aviation about the same time as the jet engine came in.
Those kind of attitudes went out of commercial aviation about the same time as the jet engine came in.
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hmm, yes, posts on wannabes often get hijacked by some pious, frustrated little so and so, concerned about the spelling or some such. lighten up. you can certainly fly a jet if you have poor spelling! it just looks bad all the rest of the time.
the original guy made a slightly rambling but serious point, although if he's desperate for a girlfriend as well as a job, well thats his business i suppose
as for the job market, the title of this post says it all. wannabes are, rightly or wrongly, 'desperate' for a job.
its not healthy in the longer term, because although the deterioration in terms and conditions is down to increased competition in the industry as well as the supply and demand of wannabes, i am sure that the present climate deters lots of good people from seriously considering a career in aviation, because the financial risks are a little rich for their taste. which seems a shame to me. there's effectively a self selection stage before anyone goes near an interview, but the selection criteria have nothing to do with ability.
take it easy, kk
the original guy made a slightly rambling but serious point, although if he's desperate for a girlfriend as well as a job, well thats his business i suppose
as for the job market, the title of this post says it all. wannabes are, rightly or wrongly, 'desperate' for a job.
its not healthy in the longer term, because although the deterioration in terms and conditions is down to increased competition in the industry as well as the supply and demand of wannabes, i am sure that the present climate deters lots of good people from seriously considering a career in aviation, because the financial risks are a little rich for their taste. which seems a shame to me. there's effectively a self selection stage before anyone goes near an interview, but the selection criteria have nothing to do with ability.
take it easy, kk
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There is no such thing as a Frozen ATPL, that's only a bull$hit marketing ploy to describe a person who holds a CPL/IR and has done the ATPL theory exams.
Try to understand the regs before you make silly comments...
I was in an airliner at 200 hours but I consider myself to have been completely unsafe at that time
No wonder aviation is going down the toilet with tw@ts like that posting such drivel...
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I said there is no such thing as a Frozen ATPL and there is not. I think you will look long, hard and unsuccessfully if you try to find any licence of this name.
I refer to the JAR-FCL:
Pilots who have passed the
ATPL(A) examinations, who hold a JAR-FCL
CPL(A)(R) with Instrument Rating and a valid type
rating on a multi-pilot aeroplane will be required to meet
the following requirements for the issue of a JAR-FCL
ATPL(A):
• Achieve 1500 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, to
include;
(i) 500 hours on multi-pilot aeroplanes,
(ii) 250 hours PIC of which up to 150 hours may
be PIC U/S,
(iii) 200 hours cross country flight of which 100
hours may be as P2 or PIC U/S,
(iv) 75 hours of instrument time of which not more
than 30 hours may be instrument ground time,
(v) not more than 100 hours may be in a flight
simulator
Nothing there about a Frozen ATPL. The route is CPL/IR + ATPL theory exams to ATPL. Like I said first time.
I know you need the exams to qualify to obtain an MPA rating, but I stand by the statement that no such licence as Frozen ATPL exists. It is still a CPL/IR (with ATPL theory credits).
I can assure you my ability is not in question but would you feel safe as a pax if FO 200 hour Bloggs is left sitting beside a dead captain on his first day post-safety pilot when an engine fails, the aircraft gets iced up, the destination closes and the fuel is running low?? A far-fetched circumstance of course but, as you should know, anything that can happen in aviation will happen. I don't care if Bloggs is the $hittest-hot new FO the company has ever seen, I know I'd rather be nowhere nearby. I conclude by saying I am damned glad, and are any of my colleagues I have talked to about this, that we got through our first few hundred hours without any major incidents.
I refer to the JAR-FCL:
Pilots who have passed the
ATPL(A) examinations, who hold a JAR-FCL
CPL(A)(R) with Instrument Rating and a valid type
rating on a multi-pilot aeroplane will be required to meet
the following requirements for the issue of a JAR-FCL
ATPL(A):
• Achieve 1500 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, to
include;
(i) 500 hours on multi-pilot aeroplanes,
(ii) 250 hours PIC of which up to 150 hours may
be PIC U/S,
(iii) 200 hours cross country flight of which 100
hours may be as P2 or PIC U/S,
(iv) 75 hours of instrument time of which not more
than 30 hours may be instrument ground time,
(v) not more than 100 hours may be in a flight
simulator
Nothing there about a Frozen ATPL. The route is CPL/IR + ATPL theory exams to ATPL. Like I said first time.
I know you need the exams to qualify to obtain an MPA rating, but I stand by the statement that no such licence as Frozen ATPL exists. It is still a CPL/IR (with ATPL theory credits).
Many of my former students had little more than 200 hours when they went into the right seat of a 757/737... I cannot remember even one of them being 'completely unsafe'... more a reflection of your own low ability methinks...
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Am I not right in thinking that airlines train all new recruits to deal with any possible problem that may arise regardless of whether they have 200 or 20,000 hours? I'm sure you wouldn't be in the RHS in the first place if you couldn't take the heat??
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Meeb, and number cruncher..Carpathia makes a VERY valid point in relation to low houred F/O's
The simple fact of the matter is this, no matter how good, how confident, how well trained, or how well selected someone is, a more experienced person is FAR more likely to be able to cope in a stressful situation and bring it to a safe conclusion. Im not talking about this in terms of who is better or who is worse, Im talking in terms of experience. Those of you on here who have done a bit, seen a bit, and have been around for a bit will agree (I hope!) Me personally after 200-250hrs..I knew just about enough to get myself killed if I wasn't careful, and if you dont think that way, then frankly your deluding yourself.
If experience wasnt an issue then we would all be flown around by 21 year old hot-shot Sim/LPC wizards who could score great points in what is still an artificial (for all the efforts being made to improve it!) training environment. Get as much and as varied experience as you can.
Experience is thus, better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
The simple fact of the matter is this, no matter how good, how confident, how well trained, or how well selected someone is, a more experienced person is FAR more likely to be able to cope in a stressful situation and bring it to a safe conclusion. Im not talking about this in terms of who is better or who is worse, Im talking in terms of experience. Those of you on here who have done a bit, seen a bit, and have been around for a bit will agree (I hope!) Me personally after 200-250hrs..I knew just about enough to get myself killed if I wasn't careful, and if you dont think that way, then frankly your deluding yourself.
If experience wasnt an issue then we would all be flown around by 21 year old hot-shot Sim/LPC wizards who could score great points in what is still an artificial (for all the efforts being made to improve it!) training environment. Get as much and as varied experience as you can.
Experience is thus, better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
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So when should someone be allowed into the RHS of a jet?
Only when they have experience of sitting in the RHS of a jet, with a dead captain, a dead engine and icing conditions?
Hopefully, my spelling, grammar and punctuation have not invalidated my argument but...
Times have changed - I cannot do Single Pilot Ops cos I dont have the required 700 hours. I shouldnt instruct to build the hours because airlines dont like instructional experience as it shows that the individual is able to think for themself.
Me? 500 hours, 100 hours P1 MEP, FI(R) and working as an instructor, salaried better than most LO-CO new hires who paid for their own type ratings.
I think a touch of frustration regarding the current employment, training, regulatory environment is wholly justified.
Only when they have experience of sitting in the RHS of a jet, with a dead captain, a dead engine and icing conditions?
Hopefully, my spelling, grammar and punctuation have not invalidated my argument but...
Times have changed - I cannot do Single Pilot Ops cos I dont have the required 700 hours. I shouldnt instruct to build the hours because airlines dont like instructional experience as it shows that the individual is able to think for themself.
Me? 500 hours, 100 hours P1 MEP, FI(R) and working as an instructor, salaried better than most LO-CO new hires who paid for their own type ratings.
I think a touch of frustration regarding the current employment, training, regulatory environment is wholly justified.
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I can assure you my ability is not in question but would you feel safe as a pax if FO 200 hour Bloggs is left sitting beside a dead captain on his first day post-safety pilot when an engine fails, the aircraft gets iced up, the destination closes and the fuel is running low??
The use of 200hr pilots in the RHS has been long-standing and proven to be highly safe where controlled. A far safer situation one might say than many of out grandparents and their colleagues flying Lancasters out to occupied Europe with 250hrs maximum.
The point raised was about getting a job with CPL/IR and ATPL theory. That issue is perhaps more to do with training quality, training records and test results, than the ability of someone who has been carefully assessed as being capable being placed in the RHS and trained to operate as a F/O.
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We have seen this kind of whinge on PPRUNE so many times - and yes deep down I agree. But nothing is going to change people. It is the way it is and no amount of whining is going to change that. There are more pilots then jobs and there always will be - it is in the vested interest of the FTO's and the airlines that this is so.
If you want that job you have to 100% believe you will get it eventually. Even a hint of a thought you might not or complaining how unfair it all is at an interview will mean you wont get the job - I have been told as much by people who work in recruiting. And many people do or don't get the job in the first sixty seconds - initial impressions count so be positive.
So instead of whinging go an try do something that will help you get that job. I have sent out 10 CV's this week and flogged a load of tot I had on ebay which has raised enough cash to take out an aircraft next week and do a few ILS's to keep my hand in at the IFR stuff.
If you ever read the thread Danny wrote about how he selected people for the first PPRUNE/Astraeus recruitment he weeded out many applications on the basis of spelling mistakes. Yes he ackonwledged that not being able to spell doesn't make somebody a bad pilot but when you have got hundreds of applications to sort through you have to start somewhere.
Just wish I had made the effort to spellcheck my original post - I will have to live by my mistake and eat humble pie
If you want that job you have to 100% believe you will get it eventually. Even a hint of a thought you might not or complaining how unfair it all is at an interview will mean you wont get the job - I have been told as much by people who work in recruiting. And many people do or don't get the job in the first sixty seconds - initial impressions count so be positive.
So instead of whinging go an try do something that will help you get that job. I have sent out 10 CV's this week and flogged a load of tot I had on ebay which has raised enough cash to take out an aircraft next week and do a few ILS's to keep my hand in at the IFR stuff.
If you ever read the thread Danny wrote about how he selected people for the first PPRUNE/Astraeus recruitment he weeded out many applications on the basis of spelling mistakes. Yes he ackonwledged that not being able to spell doesn't make somebody a bad pilot but when you have got hundreds of applications to sort through you have to start somewhere.
Just wish I had made the effort to spellcheck my original post - I will have to live by my mistake and eat humble pie
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timzsta - I agree with what you wrote.
Stay positive and try to get your hands on the controls, one way or another (even if it's just taking your dad for a sightseeing tour around the house) as often as possible is probably the best way to get a job in the long run. And remember to enjoy it!!
Stay positive and try to get your hands on the controls, one way or another (even if it's just taking your dad for a sightseeing tour around the house) as often as possible is probably the best way to get a job in the long run. And remember to enjoy it!!
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Spelling and grammar on a posting is one thing, spelling and grammar for a CV/Application form is totally different. Those of you who post when someone makes a few errors on their grammar and slate them, are very anal and clearly enjoy your nights splitting hairs!
With regards to this thread, I'm a lour hour pilot, but also accept that you can't put a price on experience, especially in this industry. We do however have to start somewhere and I believe the Airlines ( and some do) can strike a very good balance with inexperience and experience, but sadly these companies are few and far between.
sp
With regards to this thread, I'm a lour hour pilot, but also accept that you can't put a price on experience, especially in this industry. We do however have to start somewhere and I believe the Airlines ( and some do) can strike a very good balance with inexperience and experience, but sadly these companies are few and far between.
sp
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Am I not right in thinking that airlines train all new recruits to deal with any possible problem that may arise regardless of whether they have 200 or 20,000 hours?
That is why the safety pilot is signed off at a stage where the line training captain is satisfied that such a circumstance can be handled by the pilot's experience level.
So when should someone be allowed into the RHS of a jet?
Only when they have experience of sitting in the RHS of a jet, with a dead captain, a dead engine and icing conditions?
The answer to the question is, when the pilot has gained said experience, say at least 1000 hours. Yes, of course I know this won't happen, but that doesn't make it right.
working as an instructor, salaried better than most LO-CO new hires who paid for their own type ratings.
flying Lancasters out to occupied Europe with 250hrs maximum.
And before I get shot down by lots of wannabes, I started out flying jets at low-hundred hours and I would take the job again, of course you'd be mad not too. But that doesn't change the fact that in hindsight I realise my lack of experience at that time could have been a very large potential safety hazard. The problem is with the system, not the pilot.
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Quote Timzsta .......
"weeded out many applications on the basis of spelling mistakes. Yes he ackonwledged that not being able to spell doesn't make somebody a bad pilot ."
He's done it again !!!
"weeded out many applications on the basis of spelling mistakes. Yes he ackonwledged that not being able to spell doesn't make somebody a bad pilot ."
He's done it again !!!