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A lot of verbiage there, WhaleFr8.
Truth be known, Polar's then chief pilot even turned away a high senority FE guy that had a B-737 type rating (his reasoning was that this FE was a little rusty)! Another high senority FE that was accepted to the -400 program (but later suddenly dismissed) had flown as a qualified Polar classic FO just a few years earlier.
I believe that it became political, as the choice on which of the qualified FE's to send to the -400 was actually made by a committee of one. . . (Note - The then chief pilot was even heard to exclaim "think of all of the current -400 FO's those senior FE guys will displace"!).
Again FR8, - The basic reasoning of 1998, was that the FE's had about 10 years to aquire basic certificates, and thus Polar's CBA clause was intended to save jobs. . . . . BUT - With the more recently established ICAO standards, the "FE as cruise pilot" concept has now become obsolete. . . Do not deny that this concept was at one time used by the world's most major airlines during that time of transition years ago.
Truth be known, Polar's then chief pilot even turned away a high senority FE guy that had a B-737 type rating (his reasoning was that this FE was a little rusty)! Another high senority FE that was accepted to the -400 program (but later suddenly dismissed) had flown as a qualified Polar classic FO just a few years earlier.
I believe that it became political, as the choice on which of the qualified FE's to send to the -400 was actually made by a committee of one. . . (Note - The then chief pilot was even heard to exclaim "think of all of the current -400 FO's those senior FE guys will displace"!).
Again FR8, - The basic reasoning of 1998, was that the FE's had about 10 years to aquire basic certificates, and thus Polar's CBA clause was intended to save jobs. . . . . BUT - With the more recently established ICAO standards, the "FE as cruise pilot" concept has now become obsolete. . . Do not deny that this concept was at one time used by the world's most major airlines during that time of transition years ago.
Last edited by L-38; 5th Feb 2009 at 18:19.
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The "FE as cruise pilot" concept is now obsolete. . . but it was at one time used by the world's most major airlines during that time of transition years ago.
I have been around this gig for more than a few years. And I was a PFE "years ago." Other than the very limited case at QF, I have never heard of this. Most of the major airlines have used second officers since ALPA tried to force the third pilot issue during the time of transition you are talking about which came as the 737 entered service; so I am not sure what PFE-as-a-cruise-pilot concept you are talking about.
There are some highly qualified FEs who for one political reason or another are on the PFE track. There is no doubt that they can do the job; and many have. But by and large, they realized that they were the ones who needed to get off their duff and get their ratings. They did so and bid into the front seat. Human nature being what it is, there are some who just sat there, feeling like the company owed them something just because of a few words on a piece of paper. At this stage of the game, with a few exceptions, those who are left are generally thought to be in the latter category.
Enter the Atlas purchase of Polar and some creative asset transferring to cloud the picture and "shazbat" they get an arbitrator to buy off on their scope clause and the "awww poor me" game.
The PFEs knew this was coming years ago. They could have gotten their ratings and been ready. Instead they want the company to pay them to sit? Or they want to impact a whole bunch of pilots, even for two weeks, while the company fires and re-hires to adjust the seniority list. Or they want the company to pay for the training they should have gotten for themselves?
I guess it is much easier to sit back and blame the Atlas pilots or the company for all their troubles. But that's human nature I suppose.
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OK WhaleFR8 - You have now been armed with the facts. . . So what would you do now?
Just take out your trusty eraser and erase the legal, agreed on, and accepted part of this aged, lawful, legitimate, and binding document simply because you don't like it?
Just take out your trusty eraser and erase the legal, agreed on, and accepted part of this aged, lawful, legitimate, and binding document simply because you don't like it?
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Whalefr8
A "few words on a piece of paper" result in you getting a paycheck on a regular basis. Can we void those few words or are only the words that service your needs applicable.
A "few words on a piece of paper" result in you getting a paycheck on a regular basis. Can we void those few words or are only the words that service your needs applicable.
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What part do you dispute?
A "few words on a piece of paper" result in you getting a paycheck on a regular basis. Can we void those few words or are only the words that service your needs applicable.
Look, as L38 said - the Polar PFEs have known for 10 years that this day was coming. Assuming that they have enough time as an FE to use the FAR allowed max of 500 hours towards their ATP, that is only 100 hours a year they would have needed to fly to gain the time needed. Take away their training time for Private, commercial, and Instrument and they really only needed to find time to fly about 60 hours a year or a bit over one hour a week to get that experience. I am sorry that they are in this situation but it didn't take a college edumacation to read the handwriting on this wall.
Why is it the company's fault? Or the Atlas Pilot's fault? Or even the junior Polar Pilots fault?
Just a little accountability would be great here - and yet some seem to think they are qualified to fly as a cruise captain?
I know I am generalizing, and I know there are a few special situations, but as Spock says "The good of the many outweighs the good of the one (or few)."
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How well the ironclad scope clause is serving the Polar PFE's is yet to be determined. Is the hassle worth it compared to what..rolling over and playing dead. When your pushing sixty, or more, as many of the PFE's are, doing it the way so many have done it before isn't much of an option
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Very true.
See Bill's post above - I know, I know, he no longer works for AAWH so he can't be held responsible.
But the bottom line is Scope or seniority list, sitting back and trusting your future to a few words on a document in this day and age of crooked, tax evading, lawmakers and staffers; as well as predatory CEOs and VPs shows a cognitive unawareness that makes one wonder if you could really handle a cruise captain job.
Out of one side of their mouth the company tells us we are their most important asset. Out of the other they tell the media and the board of directors that we are their biggest liability.
One only has to look as far as the headlines to see how many are out of work these days. And yet some want to sit back and trust an, at best, poorly worded CBA; and a company not known for its care of workers, to retrain them, or pay them in perpetuity?
Come on - get a clue.
See Bill's post above - I know, I know, he no longer works for AAWH so he can't be held responsible.
You need to look no further than Polar than to see what this company thinks of scope. The FE's won the arbitration, now the company want to arbitrate the arbitration. Bottom line, there is no scope strong enough when the company is as dishonest as AAWWH
Out of one side of their mouth the company tells us we are their most important asset. Out of the other they tell the media and the board of directors that we are their biggest liability.
One only has to look as far as the headlines to see how many are out of work these days. And yet some want to sit back and trust an, at best, poorly worded CBA; and a company not known for its care of workers, to retrain them, or pay them in perpetuity?
Come on - get a clue.
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I think WFR8 would squeel just as loudly if he were sitting on the other side of the fence.
Anyway, IBT local 1224 should fight to make AAWW management uphold Bloch's award (make Polar FE's whole again) until Polar's CBA terminates.
This would be a win for all of IBT local 1224.
- It would demonstrate the compulsorily-ness(sp?) of a CBA to management.
- It would put financial pressure on management in pushing them to reach a new CBA agreement in a more timely manner. . . thus finally being rid of paying Polar's FE's.
- It would help demonstrate to other's that as an aviation union, the IBT really does have teeth.
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And still no documentation ...
But what does "made whole" mean. This sounds like the weasel words in the Atlas CBA? What exactly do the Polar FEs want?
Do you want to be paid to sit on your butt for life?
Do you want Atlas to spend 20-50K to get you all your licenses then allow you a couple of years sabbatical while you gain the flight time needed to move forward?
What is it that you want?
And I was on the other side of the fence but I saw the handwriting on the wall and spent the time and money to get my ratings. Took a few years off from FEing and worked for a Pt 135 company then another scum bag freighter outfit, then a regional and finally back to the cream of the crap freight flying. So I and many others did it and didn't spend 10 years sitting on our collective butts. I guess that is why I have no patience for this - at least it is not delaying our negotiations any more.
I think folks need to take a least a modicum of responsibility for their lives. It isn't like you didn't have any notice that the classics were going away. Everyone hoped that it wasn't going to happen on their watch - and I feel bad for those who tried to stick it out until they retired in this proud profession. But in fact, they guessed wrong and now they don't want to be held accountable for their poor guess. And they want others to pay for their choice; whether it be Atlas, Polar, Junior Polar pilots, Atlas Pilots - or the poor Captain that has to stay in the seat the whole time because he doesn't trust the minimal training that we all know Atlas would give to the PFE-Cruise Captains.
But what does "made whole" mean. This sounds like the weasel words in the Atlas CBA? What exactly do the Polar FEs want?
Do you want to be paid to sit on your butt for life?
Do you want Atlas to spend 20-50K to get you all your licenses then allow you a couple of years sabbatical while you gain the flight time needed to move forward?
What is it that you want?
And I was on the other side of the fence but I saw the handwriting on the wall and spent the time and money to get my ratings. Took a few years off from FEing and worked for a Pt 135 company then another scum bag freighter outfit, then a regional and finally back to the cream of the crap freight flying. So I and many others did it and didn't spend 10 years sitting on our collective butts. I guess that is why I have no patience for this - at least it is not delaying our negotiations any more.
I think folks need to take a least a modicum of responsibility for their lives. It isn't like you didn't have any notice that the classics were going away. Everyone hoped that it wasn't going to happen on their watch - and I feel bad for those who tried to stick it out until they retired in this proud profession. But in fact, they guessed wrong and now they don't want to be held accountable for their poor guess. And they want others to pay for their choice; whether it be Atlas, Polar, Junior Polar pilots, Atlas Pilots - or the poor Captain that has to stay in the seat the whole time because he doesn't trust the minimal training that we all know Atlas would give to the PFE-Cruise Captains.
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Bravo WFR8 . . . 
For management to honor, and abide by their agreement - The Polar CBA - retroactive, and for the duration of it's remaining life, pure, plain, and simple.
What is it that you want?
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Not going to be possible with no airplanes to fly and PFEs unwilling or unable to man-up and get their ratings in time. Unless of course you want Atlas to fire all the pilots junior to the most senior FE just to get to him.
Section 22 A 2
In order to exercise seniority rights under this Agreement, a Crewmember must have sufficient qualifications, as established unilaterally by the Company and published and disseminated to the Crewmembers, for the applicable position, vacancy, assignment or operation. The Crewmember also must be available to assume the position, vacancy, assignment or operation within any applicable time limits in this Agreement, and, if none, within reasonable time limits established by the Company.Next choice.
And Section 23 A 1
A Pilot will be furloughed in reverse order of placement on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List, as determined by reference to all of the Company’s Captains and First Officers as a whole. A Flight Engineer will be furloughed in reverse order of placement on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List, as determined by reference to all of the Company’s Flight Engineers.
And Section 22 D
1. A Flight Engineer may bid for a vacant First Officer position under the circumstances specified in this Paragraph.
2. In order to be eligible to submit such a bid, the Flight Engineer must possess the minimum qualifications for the First Officer position, as established unilaterally by the Company and published and disseminated to the Crewmembers, and have successfully completed the simulator evaluation required by the Company of First Officer applicants.
3. It is the Flight Engineer’s sole responsibility to obtain the minimum qualifications for the First Officer position and to complete the required simulator evaluation. The Flight Engineer will not receive any compensation for time spent, or reimbursement of any expenses incurred, in obtaining such minimum qualifications or completing such simulator evaluation
Did I miss something? You want the company to honor the CBA but you don't have to?
Section 22 A 2
In order to exercise seniority rights under this Agreement, a Crewmember must have sufficient qualifications, as established unilaterally by the Company and published and disseminated to the Crewmembers, for the applicable position, vacancy, assignment or operation. The Crewmember also must be available to assume the position, vacancy, assignment or operation within any applicable time limits in this Agreement, and, if none, within reasonable time limits established by the Company.Next choice.
And Section 23 A 1
A Pilot will be furloughed in reverse order of placement on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List, as determined by reference to all of the Company’s Captains and First Officers as a whole. A Flight Engineer will be furloughed in reverse order of placement on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List, as determined by reference to all of the Company’s Flight Engineers.
And Section 22 D
1. A Flight Engineer may bid for a vacant First Officer position under the circumstances specified in this Paragraph.
2. In order to be eligible to submit such a bid, the Flight Engineer must possess the minimum qualifications for the First Officer position, as established unilaterally by the Company and published and disseminated to the Crewmembers, and have successfully completed the simulator evaluation required by the Company of First Officer applicants.
3. It is the Flight Engineer’s sole responsibility to obtain the minimum qualifications for the First Officer position and to complete the required simulator evaluation. The Flight Engineer will not receive any compensation for time spent, or reimbursement of any expenses incurred, in obtaining such minimum qualifications or completing such simulator evaluation
Did I miss something? You want the company to honor the CBA but you don't have to?
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Do you mean this?
Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, placement on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List shall govern all Crewmembers with respect to upgrade and downgrade, retention, furlough and recall in case of reduction in force, award of domicile vacancies and displacements from domiciles, and any other assignments or awards.
So "otherwise provided in this agreement" is just one paragraph down as well as 23 A 1 - correct?
You guys were sold a bill of goods by Dan Katz, who was the only person to really make out on this whole debacle. He tried to make this about scope and the Atlas flying while Polar Engineers were furloughed. Bloch turned it right back to the seniority issue, which is where it really belongs. Yet your CBA is pretty specific don't you think. PFEs furloughed shall be done in order with respect to all the other PFEs on the list. Your CBA gives the PFEs an opportunity to bid to FO once they get themselves qualified. The fact that many decided not to should not be a reason for a grievance.
Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, placement on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List shall govern all Crewmembers with respect to upgrade and downgrade, retention, furlough and recall in case of reduction in force, award of domicile vacancies and displacements from domiciles, and any other assignments or awards.
So "otherwise provided in this agreement" is just one paragraph down as well as 23 A 1 - correct?
You guys were sold a bill of goods by Dan Katz, who was the only person to really make out on this whole debacle. He tried to make this about scope and the Atlas flying while Polar Engineers were furloughed. Bloch turned it right back to the seniority issue, which is where it really belongs. Yet your CBA is pretty specific don't you think. PFEs furloughed shall be done in order with respect to all the other PFEs on the list. Your CBA gives the PFEs an opportunity to bid to FO once they get themselves qualified. The fact that many decided not to should not be a reason for a grievance.
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WFR8
From the Bloch award.
"Management violated Section22.A.1 and related sections of the Labor Agreement by furloughing Flight Engineers while retaining junior pilots."
As far as the meaning of the legal term "make whole", Google 'arbitration award make whole" and you'll find enough documentation to keep your printer busy for a while.
From the Bloch award.
"Management violated Section22.A.1 and related sections of the Labor Agreement by furloughing Flight Engineers while retaining junior pilots."
As far as the meaning of the legal term "make whole", Google 'arbitration award make whole" and you'll find enough documentation to keep your printer busy for a while.
Last edited by BELOWMINS; 6th Feb 2009 at 02:19.
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Having taken many days to peruse the transcripts of the seniority arbitration, it appears upon reading that while Mr. Katz in fact presented a very weak and ineffective case (as also noted in the manner in which he also represented the pilots of USAirways), it appears in both cases he also had direction from leadership that was less than stellar.
That he did not produce expert testimony on bankruptcy or other matters, relying on the Polar MEC Chairmans "expertise" which was quickly discounted as not founded in sound industry experience, but anecdotal backround, and that of Captain Hair, who also did not posess credentials of an expert witness, indicates either a lack of preparation or someone who was directed to take a specific position and damn the torpedo's.
If one was a Polar crewmember, it would beg the question as to what the funds collected for this case were spent upon? It's apparent that on the Atlas side, based upon the transcripts, that they spent money finding accredited experts with specific knowledge and the only defense mounted by Polar's attorney, Mr. Katz, was to attempt to professionally attack the Atlas experts witness.
Something that was equally fended off by the expert, and clearly seen by the arbitrator as a desparate attempt by Mr. Katz to make up for his obvious shortcomings.
That he did not produce expert testimony on bankruptcy or other matters, relying on the Polar MEC Chairmans "expertise" which was quickly discounted as not founded in sound industry experience, but anecdotal backround, and that of Captain Hair, who also did not posess credentials of an expert witness, indicates either a lack of preparation or someone who was directed to take a specific position and damn the torpedo's.
If one was a Polar crewmember, it would beg the question as to what the funds collected for this case were spent upon? It's apparent that on the Atlas side, based upon the transcripts, that they spent money finding accredited experts with specific knowledge and the only defense mounted by Polar's attorney, Mr. Katz, was to attempt to professionally attack the Atlas experts witness.
Something that was equally fended off by the expert, and clearly seen by the arbitrator as a desparate attempt by Mr. Katz to make up for his obvious shortcomings.
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Flyer
I would suggest you re read the position taken by both sides on remedy, then re read the actual award. Once that is complete, see which side came closer to the remedy requested.
There are no style points in an arbitration.
I would suggest you re read the position taken by both sides on remedy, then re read the actual award. Once that is complete, see which side came closer to the remedy requested.
There are no style points in an arbitration.