Atlas/AABO
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
we have work for 2-3 classics. . . . AMC is going 400
Years ago, when Polar was considering their first -400, it was analyzed that Polar would have to fly them 18 hrs a day to justify their extra capitol costs.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When AAWH made the deal with DHL, part of it was that DHL would have access to Atlas aircraft when they needed more lift. That is what 496 and 498 were doing. But in fact, it is all AAWH flying; each pilot group flys the contracts and the aircraft as designated by the managers of the company we work for.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are 2 "Atlas" companies:
Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings is the holding company that owns Atlas Air, Inc, and 51% (cough, cough) of Polar Air Cargo, and 49% (cough, cough) of Global Supply Services, and Titan Air Leasing, and a few other minor players. Lots of suits; not many (if any) knowledgeable pilots.
Atlas Air, Inc is the company that actually employs working pilots and flight engineers, and owns/controls AACS/AABO.
Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings is the holding company that owns Atlas Air, Inc, and 51% (cough, cough) of Polar Air Cargo, and 49% (cough, cough) of Global Supply Services, and Titan Air Leasing, and a few other minor players. Lots of suits; not many (if any) knowledgeable pilots.
Atlas Air, Inc is the company that actually employs working pilots and flight engineers, and owns/controls AACS/AABO.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now here is a question from me, just curious. If the 200 fleet were completely removed, would the F/E issue disappear?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is correct - The Polar FE's are tied to Polar's CBA in a peculiar way. Polar's CBA provides for a single seniority list, where the more senior FE's hold CBA seniority authority over their more junior -400 FO's.
X Polar's CBA, and you automatically X Polar's FE's. . . .
This issue could be used as a tactical advantage for labor's IBT - Make the keeping of Polar's FE's expensive, and management will have a very large incentive to sooner replace Polar's old CBA with a newer combined one (so as to finally be rid of the Polar FE's).
X Polar's CBA, and you automatically X Polar's FE's. . . .
This issue could be used as a tactical advantage for labor's IBT - Make the keeping of Polar's FE's expensive, and management will have a very large incentive to sooner replace Polar's old CBA with a newer combined one (so as to finally be rid of the Polar FE's).
Last edited by L-38; 12th Feb 2009 at 16:16.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Gods Country
Age: 72
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not the same
Quote;
"Thought Polar flying is DHL flying unless I missed something I shouldn't have
"
496 & 498 were wet leased to Polar and operated as Polar flights with Polar call signs. If Atlas had contracted directly with DHL, those flights would have had Giant flight numbers.
"Thought Polar flying is DHL flying unless I missed something I shouldn't have
"496 & 498 were wet leased to Polar and operated as Polar flights with Polar call signs. If Atlas had contracted directly with DHL, those flights would have had Giant flight numbers.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WFR8 I thought Atlas was the company you work for. It certainly is the company with which you have a collective bargaining agreement.
496 & 498 were wet leased to Polar and operated as Polar flights with Polar call signs. If Atlas had contracted directly with DHL, those flights would have had Giant flight numbers.
This issue could be used as a tactical advantage for labor's IBT - Make the keeping of Polar's FE's expensive, and management will have a very large incentive to sooner replace Polar's old CBA with a newer combined one (so as to finally be rid of the Polar FE's).
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please. Do you really think there is a court in this land that will force a company, in this economy, to keep a group of people who have no qualification to fly any of the equipment?
Can you see it now? (AAWW management complaining to a judge about something that they didn't like after IBT's new CBA becomes effective) . . . .
"Wahhh, but we really didn't mean to sign it inclusive of THAT clause!".
or . . .
"Please help us your honor, what could we have possibly been thinking?"
Last edited by L-38; 13th Feb 2009 at 15:34.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yup I can see it now. I am sorry Mr PFE, but since you don't have a pilot rating, even though we gave you ten years notice to get one, you are not qualified to fly any equipment we have. So you can keep your job but you will have to move to White Plains, take a pay cut, and oh; we have some new equipment for you to operate. Are you qualified on the MKI br00m or the basic m0p? (note": not a comment on PFEs here - just a comment on the type of company we work for)
You are dreaming if you think any court, regardless of how the contract is written, is going to let you sit at home and draw pay until retirement age. You all had plenty of notice that the classics were going away and with a few exceptions you did nothing to qualify yourselves to continue with this company.
Course I never thought the obomonation could get elected either.
You are dreaming if you think any court, regardless of how the contract is written, is going to let you sit at home and draw pay until retirement age. You all had plenty of notice that the classics were going away and with a few exceptions you did nothing to qualify yourselves to continue with this company.
Course I never thought the obomonation could get elected either.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: South of Disorder
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CR2
Top Dog Mod
Moderator
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Age: 40
Posts: 1,849
Thought Polar flying is DHL flying unless I missed something I shouldn't have
Now here is a question from me, just curious. If the 200 fleet were completely removed, would the F/E issue disappear?
Polar's FE's do not have rights to the seats on Atlas -200's under the arbitration award. This is simply because Polar is bringing no -200's (and their FE seats) to the merged carrier and the arbitrator held that as such, they can't take an Atlas FE's seat from his airplane.
This also holds for the furloughed -200 Captains and FO's. They are not bringing their seats to the merged carrier, and therefore have no claim to a seat held by an Atlas Captain or FO on an Atlas plane.
A number of the crewmembers in question were hired to plus up Polar when Atlas retailiated against the union and dry leased a number of Classic's to Polar. What is unfortunate is that the Polar leadership knew in late 2001 that when the airlines merged, only the -400's and an estimated 150 Polar crewmembers would integrate. Something not missed by the arbitrator.
While the crewmembers will have the right to recall; it won't be until there is relative growth...i.e., the fleet expands above a preset limit. Given the tradeoff's of a -200 for an -800, this could take quite a long time. And in all likelihood, since the demand for the demand for the Classic is in the dumpster and no new 3 man birds are coming off the assembly line, the odds of FE's returning are very poor.
Regarding the need to pay unqualified or untrained crewmembers ad infinitum...while the Polar scope says some things...and has many interpreters...it also clearly states that a company has the right to run it's business as it deems necessary.(paraphrased) No different than any other labor contract. In some it's called a "force mejeure."
No court in the land is going to force a company into financial straits over a labor contract. Period.
Top Dog Mod
Moderator
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Age: 40
Posts: 1,849
Thought Polar flying is DHL flying unless I missed something I shouldn't have
Now here is a question from me, just curious. If the 200 fleet were completely removed, would the F/E issue disappear?
Polar's FE's do not have rights to the seats on Atlas -200's under the arbitration award. This is simply because Polar is bringing no -200's (and their FE seats) to the merged carrier and the arbitrator held that as such, they can't take an Atlas FE's seat from his airplane.
This also holds for the furloughed -200 Captains and FO's. They are not bringing their seats to the merged carrier, and therefore have no claim to a seat held by an Atlas Captain or FO on an Atlas plane.
A number of the crewmembers in question were hired to plus up Polar when Atlas retailiated against the union and dry leased a number of Classic's to Polar. What is unfortunate is that the Polar leadership knew in late 2001 that when the airlines merged, only the -400's and an estimated 150 Polar crewmembers would integrate. Something not missed by the arbitrator.
While the crewmembers will have the right to recall; it won't be until there is relative growth...i.e., the fleet expands above a preset limit. Given the tradeoff's of a -200 for an -800, this could take quite a long time. And in all likelihood, since the demand for the demand for the Classic is in the dumpster and no new 3 man birds are coming off the assembly line, the odds of FE's returning are very poor.
Regarding the need to pay unqualified or untrained crewmembers ad infinitum...while the Polar scope says some things...and has many interpreters...it also clearly states that a company has the right to run it's business as it deems necessary.(paraphrased) No different than any other labor contract. In some it's called a "force mejeure."
No court in the land is going to force a company into financial straits over a labor contract. Period.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Navarre
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They did it to the auto makers. But that is off point. The questions to ask is why did the classics go away? It was determined that the classics were no longer at Polar because the freight was being flown by Atlas. A violation of the CBA scope. That was the the reason the classics went away at least in the arbitration award..
I find myself in agreement that the FE's should have worked toward a commercial license, but that is not as easy as you might think. A few of the FEs took LOAs (the single ones) and worked on the 250 hrs needed, others started from scratch and they are working on the -400 today. But with wife, kids, and bills, a lot of the guys did not have the time nor money to go that route.
But, given that it still doesn't give the company to right to violate the scope. Even after the ruling the company still refuses to abide by the ruling. All have ID cards again and are on the CASS roster or at least soon to be, yet none are being paid although the company says they are active crew members and that means the 65 hour guarantee should apply.
While there are a lot of good points made on both sides here it still comes down to scope.
I find myself in agreement that the FE's should have worked toward a commercial license, but that is not as easy as you might think. A few of the FEs took LOAs (the single ones) and worked on the 250 hrs needed, others started from scratch and they are working on the -400 today. But with wife, kids, and bills, a lot of the guys did not have the time nor money to go that route.
But, given that it still doesn't give the company to right to violate the scope. Even after the ruling the company still refuses to abide by the ruling. All have ID cards again and are on the CASS roster or at least soon to be, yet none are being paid although the company says they are active crew members and that means the 65 hour guarantee should apply.
While there are a lot of good points made on both sides here it still comes down to scope.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 65
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fortunately in this country we have laws and are not governed by the logic of WFR8 and IFlyer. No judge will do this...no judge will say that. Lets ask a judge and find out.
The best you will get is another arbiter or the same one addressing his past judgment. I think the arbiter in question even padded his pocket book by making the decision the way he did, knowing that further work would be needed on his judgment expanding his billable hours.
Arbiters know what side their bread is buttered on and why they generally don't make overly impairing rulings against a company.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with Nitty in that . .
An arbitrator's ruling is seldom overturned, else the entire system of arbitration would fall apart thus further burdening the courts.
A judge would only defer back to arbitration after everyone spent the money going through the steps to get into court.
The best you will get is another arbiter or the same one addressing his past judgment
The best you will get is another arbiter or the same one addressing his past judgment
Last edited by L-38; 15th Feb 2009 at 16:44.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For info, management has now restored all Polar FE's with their full, valid company ID's and has also placed them back on a current seniority list (un-furloughed) for the duration of Polar's CBA.
As also as in 2006/07 with no airplanes to fly, and also with reference to Bloch's award almost identical to that of Holden's (the FE's shall be made whole), is history about to repeat itself?
As also as in 2006/07 with no airplanes to fly, and also with reference to Bloch's award almost identical to that of Holden's (the FE's shall be made whole), is history about to repeat itself?