Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

Base Training, Command Courses, POS18 and job cuts

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Base Training, Command Courses, POS18 and job cuts

Old 12th May 2020, 01:05
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: York International
Posts: 614
Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
That's not correct. US carriers are following their contracts.

It is true they've avoided layoffs (which will probably happen anyway) through the use of voluntary compensated leave schemes (to include early retirements with significant compensation). But when push comes to shove they will have to follow the contract and layoff by seniority. As will elements of CX stationed in the US. And this IS enforceable.
If CoS20 comes in with vastly different pay here in HKG the bases will have lost whatever benefit they may have to the company. I think all bases will be soon be gone.
Fly747 is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 01:06
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by Fly747 View Post
If CoS20 comes in with vastly different pay here in HKG the bases will have lost whatever benefit they may have to the company. I think all bases will be soon be gone.
May well be. Guess we'll see.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 01:15
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: DSOTM
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
Not if the intent was to evade the contractural terms by so doing (i.e. closing a base to evade furloughing in order of seniority mandated by an existing contract would almost certainly generate a claim and a quagmire--kind of like skipping town to avoid paying a bill). Yes; right of return on an expensive contract.
Just playing devils advocate here but, why wouldn’t they get them back on an expensive contract if the intent is to make people redundant?

After they are back in HKG you offer the new and improved COS to everybody and from there you proceed with redundancies.

Getting back to HKG permanently on expat terms sounds exceedingly implausible to me. We will all see in the end, just seems to me this is about to get very ugly and very “unfair”, so to speak.
drfaust is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 01:18
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by SabrinaSenior View Post
I have it on good authority that the plan for Cx express involves getting rid of a scale / b scale / travel fund goodies at dragon by offering any ex dragon pilot to join Cx on cos18.
Would have to agree this will be the end of B scale for all Sabrina, not just KA.....
MPPCAG is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 01:22
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Here & there
Posts: 752
Originally Posted by drfaust View Post
After they are back in HKG you offer the new and improved COS to everybody and from there you proceed with redundancies.
OR, ram through the 'new and improved' COS in HKG, THEN close the bases. Given that COS08 would no longer exist, based pilots would have the choice of returning to HKG on the new COS or taking redundancy under their existing COS.
BuzzBox is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 01:42
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: at home
Posts: 90
Originally Posted by MPPCAG View Post
Would have to agree this will be the end of B scale for all Sabrina, not just KA.....
So just curious Sabrina, how many A scale left at KA?

JY
JY9024 is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 01:56
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Location Location
Posts: 100
Too many people projecting wishful thinking and Western legal values that amount to nothing in HK. In addition, I find it laughable that there are somehow assumptions that HK courts still amount to anything, as if the developments in the recent political realm stand completely separate from the economy. They do not. The company viewed the 49ers Incident as a resounding success. The strategic objective was never those unfortunate 49 professionals. The objective was to cow the AOA membership into submission. The company succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. CC could never be effective because too many loose cannons using it for their own ends, undermining the objective. Should have gone for a walkout, it never happened. Ghosts of the 49ers.

There is a template for what comes next. It was deployed during SARS. It is brutally simple. The company will offer voluntary resignation/retirement/redundancy options. These will be the sweetheart deals. The company will consider this its benevolent gesture. After that, they will cut what they need. Since we can already project a dramatic decrease in demand, perhaps somewhere in line with 25-40% immediate reduction in flights at least for the next 12-24 months, that's the number of redundancies they will pursue. The company is well aware of the global picture and understands they can further eviscerate the ranks by rehiring pilots on direct entry options if there is a rebound. The company will focus on cutting from the top. In the accounting department, a pilot's a pilot's a pilot. Your umpteen years experience counts for nothing. Your safety record, your stellar employment history, awards... no one cares.

The company tipped its hand when they announced a recall of several cadet classes in February, and then reversed the decision a few days later. It's crystal clear what is going to happen next. Do yourselves a favor, stop projecting your wishes, apply what you learned along your long and hard-earned career to your own life circumstance and pretend your aircraft has just lost both engines and all power. Act accordingly. Stop wishful thinking. It's weak.
Shutterbug is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 02:03
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by drfaust View Post
Just playing devils advocate here but, why wouldn’t they get them back on an expensive contract if the intent is to make people redundant?

After they are back in HKG you offer the new and improved COS to everybody and from there you proceed with redundancies.

Getting back to HKG permanently on expat terms sounds exceedingly implausible to me. We will all see in the end, just seems to me this is about to get very ugly and very “unfair”, so to speak.
Yup.....guess we'll see.

To be candid were I a manager (since they're such a small fraction of the operation) I'd probably avoid the potential quagmires altogether and leave the bases alone until things get shook out in HKG well downline; this would also give me some flexibility depending on how things relit in the airline world. And would give me downline some plausibility to avoid opening up a can of worms in the jurisdictions regarding contracts and motivations for closures. But I'm not and don't pretend to be so's haven't got a clue what'll happen one way or another.

I WOULD have some type of exit strategy or plan for whatever might transpire though.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 02:12
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 23
Shutterbug has it right I think. This will be 'survival of the cheapest'.
MPPCAG is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 02:32
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: York International
Posts: 614
I don’t think that politically they could shed people here and have others flying in from a base and operating out of HK when HKers have lost their job.
Fly747 is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 02:38
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Nimbus
Posts: 79
Right.
And if nobody signs Pos18 or whatever they throw at us, they're going to crew the flights with the 500 guys who are already on it, 90% of whom are Second Officers.
Get a grip!

When I think that only 3 months ago, you were all complaining about the guys who "accepted shitty deals" or "eroded the contract" by joining on POS18.
If you guys now accept any shitty deal thrown at you because you're scared in the short term. THINK about the long term effects. You're going to have a shitty contract for the remaining 5/10/15/20 years of your career!
​​​​
Zapp_Brannigan is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 04:36
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: York International
Posts: 614
They won’t care how many don’t take it. We’re not exactly flying a full schedule now. They can slowly build back up from a low base.
Fly747 is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 06:51
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: shoe box
Posts: 350
Originally Posted by Angel 8 View Post
Base closure would probably see more leave on the “exciting” deal as compared to having to relocate to HKG. But even then, they would still need to clear some from the bottom.
Given the current lack of employment options in the industry around the world I'm not sure closing the bases would see too many leave unless they take early retirement or pursue other career option.

If they did decide to cut from the bottom, would it be only expats? How would the immigration department view locals being chopped and expats keeping their job? Or does the seniority factor override this?
Sue Ridgepipe is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 07:37
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: usa
Posts: 24
Come on people..... I thought you are smart individuals!
We all know that they are going to attack the "heavy weights" in this company. Please don't fool yourselves to think that this airline will not be able to function without 500 less Captains. They will have a "trainer's deal" that will keep them training.
We have many many capable senior FO's that will hang around and be upgraded. They have about 6-12 months to get people trained up. Look at what they are doing now, SO/JFO/CAPT courses are on the go...... think people.

ARAPA is a thing of the past! All the cushy contracts in KA are gone! ARAPA will be gone! Bases closed down ( but welcome to HK )! Cos18 or job cuts!
If you don't like it or agree to it then here is 3 months! BYE BYE.
herewego75 is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 13:39
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Somewhere in the Four Corners
Posts: 44
Dream On

Originally Posted by herewego75 View Post
Come on people..... I thought you are smart individuals!
We all know that they are going to attack the "heavy weights" in this company. Please don't fool yourselves to think that this airline will not be able to function without 500 less Captains. They will have a "trainer's deal" that will keep them training.
We have many many capable senior FO's that will hang around and be upgraded. They have about 6-12 months to get people trained up. Look at what they are doing now, SO/JFO/CAPT courses are on the go...... think people.

ARAPA is a thing of the past! All the cushy contracts in KA are gone! ARAPA will be gone! Bases closed down ( but welcome to HK )! Cos18 or job cuts!
If you don't like it or agree to it then here is 3 months! BYE BYE.
I assume that you assume, that all of those “many capable senior FO’s” that you speak of, will all pass their command courses? 😳 You’ve either not been here very long or you forget for whom you work!
I thought you are smart..
Pot calling the kettle black, is my assumption 🤔
Bo Wing is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 16:12
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 591
Short Term

Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan View Post
Right.
And if nobody signs Pos18 or whatever they throw at us, they're going to crew the flights with the 500 guys who are already on it, 90% of whom are Second Officers.
Get a grip!

When I think that only 3 months ago, you were all complaining about the guys who "accepted shitty deals" or "eroded the contract" by joining on POS18.
If you guys now accept any shitty deal thrown at you because you're scared in the short term. THINK about the long term effects. You're going to have a shitty contract for the remaining 5/10/15/20 years of your career!
​​​​
Anyone, previously or now, who signs COS18, more than likely tried to justify their actions with - I can do this and then move on to a better company, better lifestyle, better rosters etc. and life will be good.. That thread of justifying your actions is now officially dead, forever !!

Short term thinking will inevitably backfire.. You want proof, simply look at how CX is managed, who they choose as managers and the resultant 27 years of chaos.
Flex88 is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 16:20
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 819
Flex. You just stated the main point that everyone tends to forget at their peril. The fact that this has been going on now for 27 years. Anyone who loses sight of that will inevitably make the wrong decisions. Unfortunately, I now fear that circumstances have provided the company with exactly the trigger they've long been hoping for to justify their all out final assault on the conditions and pay at CX.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 12th May 2020, 17:38
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 305
Originally Posted by AQIS Boigu View Post
There will be no redundancies from the bottom.

Why get rid off the cheapest crew?
COS18 for all would be the great equalizer. 4 pay increments for Captains and 2 for FO. No ARAPA. All crew will be equally cheap. Bumping and conversion has to happen anyways with a fleet reduction of probably 30-40%. Wishful thinking that CX will cherry pick redundancies out of seniority might not happen. My guess, when the dust has settled the most junior CX pilot has a seniority number somewhere between 2200-2500.

A clear indication that redundancies will happen is that CX did not take the HKG government financial aid package which would have required CX to keep everyone employed until October.

And yes, closure of all bases could be a possibility.



Last edited by GTC58; 12th May 2020 at 19:26.
GTC58 is online now  
Old 12th May 2020, 20:46
  #39 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 173
Costs a lot to make non-POS18 redundant - have to pay out leave and then 6 months pay. In 6 months there will be enough flying to need most (not all) of the current pilots.

POS18 pilots cheap to make redundant with immediate cost savings. Most POS18 aircrew are SOs and JFOs. Not as useable as Relief FOs and Capts. If aircrew are make redundant it will be last on, first off.

CPA, Dragon, CX Express and Air HKG. 4 sets of staff and IT etc to run 4 operators. One set of staff and IT could do it all.

ARAPA would take months to unwind even if by force, so in the long term on the block but no quick cash flow fix. Announce a change of policy. ARAPA cuts in a years time (as per the policy) hoping to trigger resignations from non-POS18 pilots.

Company already paying for SIMs, acft and BTCs, so might as well continue with training as the extra cost is stuff all.

My punt: 20 - 30% pay cut for HKG aircrew for 4 - 5 months. Amalgamation of over lapping back office roles, so more Hello Kitty redundancies. Voluntary redundancy package.

Last edited by controlledrest; 13th May 2020 at 00:54.
controlledrest is offline  
Old 13th May 2020, 04:30
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: usa
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Bo Wing View Post
I assume that you assume, that all of those “many capable senior FO’s” that you speak of, will all pass their command courses? 😳 You’ve either not been here very long or you forget for whom you work! Pot calling the kettle black, is my assumption 🤔
It's not my intention to get into a heated argument about the above. Let me just point out to you that the quality of training and checking requirements have drastically dropped world wide. Captains leave the very capable FO's to man the ship during the middle of the night through the ITCZ. If that does not show confidence then I don't know?

So yes I stand by my statement - we have very capable FO's that WILL pass their courses in the near future. Even if it means a few more sectors or a longer course. It will be a whole lot cheaper than keeping a guy on housing for 10 more years etc. So I believe that the ARAPA pilots will be given a 6-12 month notice, layoffs will not commence until the company have used up all its options. I hate to point out the obvious, but ARAPA is the biggest cost out of all benefits we as pilots are lucky to receive ( except our provident fund ) and its a POLICY.
The question is will the AOA protect the jobs of every pilot or rather the housing of a third of its pilots?

And as I said before we will see bases close, COS18 ( or a big pay cut for the next 6 months ), reduction in schooling allowance, provident fund cuts, more SLS etc

But look on the bright side we will most likely be the only airline that don't layoff crew and that will be a miracle in itself. EK and QATAR have slowly started this already.
herewego75 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.