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Base Training, Command Courses, POS18 and job cuts

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Base Training, Command Courses, POS18 and job cuts

Old 14th May 2020, 04:52
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: planet earth
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Where do you guys get this crap? We are all on a common seniority list, and that needs to be respected. Period. Full stop. End of story. Any other machinations by CX (or you dweebs imagining their slimy, seniority avoiding plots for them) needs to be met with the full disdain and resistance of the collective pilot group.

CoS18 pilots and many more above them need to accept that you can and should be made redundant / furloughed. Iím not taking ANY concessions to keep you on the payroll. Itís not my job to do that. I have fought too hard for too long to have a decent career to take one in the chops so some almost, baby pilot can have a job flying widebodies.

Trust me, you will feel the same way when you are decently far up a seniority list listening to the whiny brats at the bottom talk about how the airline needs to get rid of you because youíre too expensive and your experience doesnít count for much.

+1
Last in First out baby.
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Old 14th May 2020, 06:15
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: usa
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Where do you guys get this crap? We are all on a common seniority list, and that needs to be respected. Period. Full stop. End of story. Any other machinations by CX (or you dweebs imagining their slimy, seniority avoiding plots for them) needs to be met with the full disdain and resistance of the collective pilot group.

CoS18 pilots and many more above them need to accept that you can and should be made redundant / furloughed. Iím not taking ANY concessions to keep you on the payroll. Itís not my job to do that. I have fought too hard for too long to have a decent career to take one in the chops so some almost, baby pilot can have a job flying widebodies.

Trust me, you will feel the same way when you are decently far up a seniority list listening to the whiny brats at the bottom talk about how the airline needs to get rid of you because youíre too expensive and your experience doesnít count for much.
What world are you living in? oooooo that's correct a privileged one. A world where you clearly don't care about anyone but yourself. With your comments it would not surprise me that you on the GC! Always worrying about ME ME ME or an employee that has taken full advantage of the company ( max sick days etc ).

At no point will CX retrench anyone if they have not tried their best to cut costs where they can.

ARAPA - do you think that people getting 2 x salary of a SO ( just for housing ) will be allowed? Wishful thinking!
Bases - they will be recalled like they should be but I'm sure most of the guys will not want to come back without ARAPA!
Pay Cuts - for everyone!

So I do agree with you that LIFO is the way they will retrench guys and they will be recalled in seniority order.
BUT that's after they make long long term changes first.

Good luck all i'm sure that our well informed and well communicating GC will tell us the GOOD news next Friday.
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Old 14th May 2020, 06:56
  #63 (permalink)  
hyg
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by bacou View Post
What about creating a cargo subsidiary with the 747 and furlough the passenger aircraft pilots ?
Wouldn't it save more money than cutting KA.?

Anyway longhaul is dead for years and 320/321 might be the future of aviation in many places.
why not both?
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Old 14th May 2020, 07:22
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 147
If you are trying to cut costs why keep the expensive staff?.

They don't care how smooth the grey beards land the plane, to the bean counters a pilot is a pilot is a pilot,
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Old 14th May 2020, 07:55
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 368
Originally Posted by wongsuzie View Post
If you are trying to cut costs why keep the expensive staff?.

They don't care......,
Yes.......they don't care - until they do!
When due to dilution of, or loss of, large amounts of experienced talent, that there's a headline making accident concurrent with horrendous loss of life.

So if you think keeping the expensive staff is costing a lot, then try having an accident.

Those same expensive staff have often been the focal point of negating potential incidents that only avoided being the headline news by their experience and ability in ensuring aircraft and bodies were not reverting to much smaller parts.
LongTimeInCX is online now  
Old 14th May 2020, 08:11
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: HK
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Where do you guys get this crap? We are all on a common seniority list, and that needs to be respected. Period. Full stop. End of story. Any other machinations by CX (or you dweebs imagining their slimy, seniority avoiding plots for them) needs to be met with the full disdain and resistance of the collective pilot group.

CoS18 pilots and many more above them need to accept that you can and should be made redundant / furloughed. Iím not taking ANY concessions to keep you on the payroll. Itís not my job to do that. I have fought too hard for too long to have a decent career to take one in the chops so some almost, baby pilot can have a job flying widebodies.

Trust me, you will feel the same way when you are decently far up a seniority list listening to the whiny brats at the bottom talk about how the airline needs to get rid of you because youíre too expensive and your experience doesnít count for much.
The problem is that everyone is looking out for themselves. Collective action by a divided pilot group is unrealistic when it's a case of senior pilots not being willing to make temporary concessions while expecting junior pilots to face redundancies. Turkey's voting for Christmas comes to mind. Self preservation is the reason the unions are so ineffective and looked upon with disdain by management. Yes seniority should be respected but tell that to someone with a young family. I'm just playing devils advocate here.

The company has us all by the balls, the industry is dead and most of the airline is grounded. We have no leverage and will have to take whatever they dish out on the chin.
YellowFever777 is online now  
Old 14th May 2020, 08:38
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 147
Airline business have already calculated the risk of accident and have factored that in with appropriate hedges/liability protection.They have decided the risk is worth the reward.

The premium to hire Chuck Yeager versus average Nigel is not worth it.
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Old 14th May 2020, 09:20
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: HK
Posts: 34
Chuck Yeager wouldnít have worked for the Swires anywayOver the last few weeks, heís been responding to all manner of questions posed to him on Twitter Ė and giving some extremely forthright answers.

One follower asked General Yeager, lionised in Tom Wolfeís book The Right Stuff, why he appeared to have a negative attitude towards the British.

He responded: ĎArrogant. Nasty to Americans when we were over there saving them.

ĎNasty when I visited them a few years ago - wanted a whole lot for nothing.í

JMock is online now  
Old 14th May 2020, 09:39
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by JMock View Post
Chuck Yeager wouldnít have worked for the Swires anywayOver the last few weeks, heís been responding to all manner of questions posed to him on Twitter Ė and giving some extremely forthright answers.

One follower asked General Yeager, lionised in Tom Wolfeís book The Right Stuff, why he appeared to have a negative attitude towards the British.

He responded: ĎArrogant. Nasty to Americans when we were over there saving them.

ĎNasty when I visited them a few years ago - wanted a whole lot for nothing.í

Read Robin Olds book he was of a different opinion. Yeager's biography doesn't paint him as a particularly nice character.
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Old 14th May 2020, 13:56
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: here
Posts: 138
I think redundancies and LIFO is about as likely as getting the Chinese to admit they created the virus (not that I think they did). It aint going to happen. No way the company will lose POS18 kids to retain 30yr, ex-A-scale, non-sls taking Captain living in a serviced apartment for $105,000HKD/month. Argue the legalities of your COS all you like. It Will not happen.
Will IB Fayed is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 14:13
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 2,009
Originally Posted by AllWobbly View Post
Read Robin Olds book he was of a different opinion. Yeager's biography doesn't paint him as a particularly nice character.
I have met Chuck Yeager in person and seen him carry himself in a group of highly competent and talented test pilots (to include a pilot with two MiG kills). I can tell you definitively that he is in fact an a$$hole. That he only made one star general after his storybook career is quite indicting. That said, his accomplishments deserve our respect.
cxorcist is online now  
Old 14th May 2020, 14:28
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 2,009
Originally Posted by herewego75 View Post
What world are you living in? oooooo that's correct a privileged one. A world where you clearly don't care about anyone but yourself. With your comments it would not surprise me that you on the GC! Always worrying about ME ME ME or an employee that has taken full advantage of the company ( max sick days etc ).

At no point will CX retrench anyone if they have not tried their best to cut costs where they can.

ARAPA - do you think that people getting 2 x salary of a SO ( just for housing ) will be allowed? Wishful thinking!
Bases - they will be recalled like they should be but I'm sure most of the guys will not want to come back without ARAPA!
Pay Cuts - for everyone!

So I do agree with you that LIFO is the way they will retrench guys and they will be recalled in seniority order.
BUT that's after they make long long term changes first.

Good luck all i'm sure that our well informed and well communicating GC will tell us the GOOD news next Friday.
What world am I living in? Good question. Hopefully, one in which both sides honor a contract that was signed (to include LIFO), not a Chinese toilet paper contract only valid when things donít get rough.

Privileged? Did you get that from your anthropology professor in uni? Was I privileged when I was picking sand out of my teeth, jumping in and out of chem gear on 40+ degree days, and having every imaginable size AAA shot at me? Was I privileged doing hard yards at FBOs working for flying time? Or how about flying seven legs a day for near minimum wage?

No, I donít think so.

Privileged is when your tiger mommy fills out your CX application for you, and then you get to go on vacation to Adelaide to fly a DA-42 around the pattern. Then, poof! Magically you are qualified to fly big jets for CX while you move back in with mommy and play video games on all your time off. Thatís privilege!

Did I miss something or did the Internet just raise the biggest generation of twats in the entire history of the world?
cxorcist is online now  
Old 14th May 2020, 14:34
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 33
[QUOTE=cxorcist;10782458]What world am I living in? Good question. Hopefully, one in which both sides honor a contract that was signed (to include LIFO), not a Chinese toilet paper contract only valid when things donít get rough.

Privileged? Did you get that from your anthropology professor in uni? Was I privileged when I was picking sand out of my teeth, jumping in and out of chem gear on 40+ degree days, and having every imaginable size AAA shot at me? Was I privileged doing hard yards at FBOs working for flying time? Or how about flying seven legs a day for near minimum wage?

No, I donít think so.

Privileged is when your tiger mommy fills out your CX application for you, and then you get to go on vacation to Adelaide to fly a DA-42 around the pattern. Then, poof! Magically you are qualified to fly big jets for CX while you move back in with mommy and play video games on all your time off. Thatís privilege!

Did I miss something or did the Internet just raise the biggest generation of twats in the entire history of the world?[/QUOTE

wow, this is a great spectators sport.

Looking forward to the come back.
Ecam321 is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 14:48
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by Will IB Fayed View Post
I think redundancies and LIFO is about as likely as getting the Chinese to admit they created the virus (not that I think they did). It aint going to happen. No way the company will lose POS18 kids to retain 30yr, ex-A-scale, non-sls taking Captain living in a serviced apartment for $105,000HKD/month. Argue the legalities of your COS all you like. It Will not happen.
I don't doubt that's their intent, but the contract is clear. And that's what a contract is for.

The only sticking point might be one of enforceability. There are jurisdictions where the provision is completely enforceable -- to the point of both grievance and court if violated -- and in some of these the company winds up paying for a large chunk of the process. But it's not esoteric BS; it's about as clear cut as it gets (and you can't close down an operation to evade your legitimate contractural responsibilities--not only is it illegal but you are usually found out and all of the inter-office comms get subpoenaed). And there are jurisdictions where enforcing it might be dodgy.

The company could avoid this by voluntary separations at the upper ends but will have to pay for it. Effectively paying for seniority invested and the contract they agreed. At the end of the day this might be a wise business decision and cheaper all around for everyone. What would NOT be wise is an attempt to end-run the contract and shenanigans because no matter who or what you are this tends to come back at a person.
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Old 14th May 2020, 14:49
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 356
Privileged is when your tiger mommy fills out your CX application for you, and then you get to go on vacation to Adelaide to fly a DA-42 around the pattern. Then, poof! Magically you are qualified to fly big jets for CX while you move back in with mommy and play video games on all your time off. That’s privilege!
I once asked [as a conversation starter] a newly minted 2 bar how many solo hours you have?

The ans was: zero
CodyBlade is online now  
Old 14th May 2020, 15:07
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 2,009
Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
I don't doubt that's their intent, but the contract is clear. And that's what a contract is for.

The only sticking point might be one of enforceability. There are jurisdictions where the provision is completely enforceable -- to the point of both grievance and court if violated -- and in some of these the company winds up paying for a large chunk of the process. But it's not esoteric BS; it's about as clear cut as it gets (and you can't close down an operation to evade your legitimate contractural responsibilities--not only is it illegal but you are usually found out and all of the inter-office comms get subpoenaed). And there are jurisdictions where enforcing it might be dodgy.

The company could avoid this by voluntary separations at the upper ends but will have to pay for it. Effectively paying for seniority invested and the contract they agreed. At the end of the day this might be a wise business decision and cheaper all around for everyone. What would NOT be wise is an attempt to end-run the contract and shenanigans because no matter who or what you are this tends to come back at a person.
At least somebody gets it... No doubt this isnít his first time around the pattern.
cxorcist is online now  
Old 14th May 2020, 15:15
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 2,009
[QUOTE=Ecam321;10782461]
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
What world am I living in? Good question. Hopefully, one in which both sides honor a contract that was signed (to include LIFO), not a Chinese toilet paper contract only valid when things donít get rough.

Privileged? Did you get that from your anthropology professor in uni? Was I privileged when I was picking sand out of my teeth, jumping in and out of chem gear on 40+ degree days, and having every imaginable size AAA shot at me? Was I privileged doing hard yards at FBOs working for flying time? Or how about flying seven legs a day for near minimum wage?

No, I donít think so.

Privileged is when your tiger mommy fills out your CX application for you, and then you get to go on vacation to Adelaide to fly a DA-42 around the pattern. Then, poof! Magically you are qualified to fly big jets for CX while you move back in with mommy and play video games on all your time off. Thatís privilege!

Did I miss something or did the Internet just raise the biggest generation of twats in the entire history of the world?[/QUOTE

wow, this is a great spectators sport.

Looking forward to the come back.
While I appreciate your enthusiasm, itís not a spectator sport. Itís a rather sad indictment of society today. The Western world is losing, not to the Chinese or other brutal dictatorships, but to itself as a self-defeating snowflake-ism takes deep root within democracies. This is what happens when academia, the media, and unelected bureaucrats get to define societal norms.
cxorcist is online now  
Old 14th May 2020, 15:37
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 33
[QUOTE=cxorcist;10782501]
Originally Posted by Ecam321 View Post
While I appreciate your enthusiasm, itís not a spectator sport. Itís a rather sad indictment of society today. The Western world is losing, not to the Chinese or other brutal dictatorships, but to itself as a self-defeating snowflake-ism takes deep root within democracies. This is what happens when academia, the media, and unelected bureaucrats get to define societal norms.
Actually I was referring too the absolute disintegration between your ranks as being a spectators sport.

I have worked for 5 airlines in a 25 year career and never have I seen such a disconnect between the senior and junior pilots. Itís sad you guys really hate each other and wish each other ill. Its entertaining too read your posts but sad in the big scheme of things.

Iím sure your an awesome aviator but you are not the saviour of aviation, the industry would function quite happily with out you.

These snowflakes you refer too are the future of aviation, you are the past, like it or not.
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Old 14th May 2020, 17:30
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 591
The future..

[QUOTE=Ecam321;10782516]
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post

Actually I was referring too the absolute disintegration between your ranks as being a spectators sport.

I have worked for 5 airlines in a 25 year career and never have I seen such a disconnect between the senior and junior pilots. Itís sad you guys really hate each other and wish each other ill. Its entertaining too read your posts but sad in the big scheme of things.

Iím sure your an awesome aviator but you are not the saviour of aviation, the industry would function quite happily with out you.

These snowflakes you refer too are the future of aviation, you are the past, like it or not.
Hand off a career of hard work and dedication to a system hell bent on Dumbing Down the professional ranks till they fit into that nice little slot on a Directors spreadsheet.. Should the previous generation simply walk away quietly as they are continuously derided by a self serving management structure who stupidly expect apathy, OR, perhaps out of concern make some noise about ex barista snowflakes shovelled into a "job" by daddy or an incompetent and naive "People" department ?? Looks like we're going to find out !!

Too late for #CXit

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Old 15th May 2020, 04:27
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: planet earth
Posts: 17
This is what happens when academia, the media, and unelected bureaucrats get to define societal norms.
Also a result of the, 'even if you come last, you get a trophy' world we live in today.

A generation with an enormous sense of entitlement.
doolay is offline  

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