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Base Training, Command Courses, POS18 and job cuts

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Base Training, Command Courses, POS18 and job cuts

Old 16th May 2020, 14:54
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: DSOTM
Posts: 192
Well the question isnít really about me and I am most definitely not jumping to sign away anything. It was a genuine question: if they give everyone notice, and then offer COS18, what exactly is it we could do about it? Iím also talking about HKG here because I donít know how anything works at the bases.

If the alternative to signing is taking redundancy they could well still follow the LIFO principle in the contracts. The person on the list before you that signs disappears from that list, if they donít sign they also disappear from the list because of being made redundant, so when your number is up they are not firing out of seniority. Thatís what I meant and itís a genuine question.

That would mean that someone junior would voluntarily take redundancy so that someone senior could remain on their contract as opposed to signing COS18 and remaining employed. It is a highly undesirable scenario, but it seems it would be the only legal way to circumvent redundancies outside of seniority.

Is there anything that can actually prevent this from happening?
drfaust is offline  
Old 16th May 2020, 16:58
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Yi Pak Wan
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Dilbert68 View Post
What exactly did they do? I can't even see COS 18 on crew direct as I am not on that contract...
yes you can - itís on Crew Direct under Flight Crew People Services. But Iíll summarise for you:

yesterday they sneaked in a new version of COS18 eff 16/5/20. A couple of minor tweaks but the REALLY interesting bit is that there is no redundancy clause in the new version, whereas it warranted an entire section in the previous version...
DessertRat is offline  
Old 16th May 2020, 17:22
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 221
Originally Posted by drfaust View Post
Well the question isn’t really about me and I am most definitely not jumping to sign away anything. It was a genuine question: if they give everyone notice, and then offer COS18, what exactly is it we could do about it? I’m also talking about HKG here because I don’t know how anything works at the bases.

If the alternative to signing is taking redundancy they could well still follow the LIFO principle in the contracts. The person on the list before you that signs disappears from that list, if they don’t sign they also disappear from the list because of being made redundant, so when your number is up they are not firing out of seniority. That’s what I meant and it’s a genuine question.

That would mean that someone junior would voluntarily take redundancy so that someone senior could remain on their contract as opposed to signing COS18 and remaining employed. It is a highly undesirable scenario, but it seems it would be the only legal way to circumvent redundancies outside of seniority.

Is there anything that can actually prevent this from happening?
Problem would be the first time they involuntarily made someone redundant of greater seniority while retaining someone of lesser they've violated the contract. Could they attempt to terminate ALL contracts in HKG ? Meh..... what they are doing is in practice trying to evade a legitimate and binding contract and that'd be up to the courts in HKG.

Now one thing that might be able to help is if by doing things that way in HKG it adversely affected someone on a base in some way (at least in a forum where the contract is actionable under law). And they could show that the way HKG was doing things violated the redundancy provision of their CA/EA/CBA and had harmed them with a future contract or upgrade opportunity in some way (for example if HKG terminated the contract in HKG, forced everyone onto POS18 or whatever, then shut the base and forced returnees onto POS18 you could certainly demonstrate that the entire shebang was deliberately done to evade the redundancy provisions of the original EA/CA/CBA on the base and take it for legal action in the based country).

Considering the costs if I were the company I'd make some sort of very attractive voluntary option to stay out of the quagmire. And/Or follow the contract exactly as written and furlough (with stipulated pay protection) as it's delineated in reverse seniority order. But I ain't them.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 16th May 2020, 18:44
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 833
Slasher. One thing I can certainly dissuade you of is the idea they will be offering an "attractive" redundancy package. Not going to happen.

Last edited by mngmt mole; 16th May 2020 at 23:22.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 16th May 2020, 23:11
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 601
COS18

Originally Posted by DessertRat View Post
yes you can - itís on Crew Direct under Flight Crew People Services. But Iíll summarise for you:

yesterday they sneaked in a new version of COS18 eff 16/5/20. A couple of minor tweaks but the REALLY interesting bit is that there is no redundancy clause in the new version, whereas it warranted an entire section in the previous version...
Then I would expect that the HKAOA would have copies of the previous edition (dated previous to 16/5/20) and the newly minted version would then only apply to those hired "after" the latest amendment.. Copies of "previous" version should of course be forwarded to AOA AND CX legal council for safe keeping...
Flex88 is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 06:55
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 516
Absolutely

During the SYD base mess the guys taking VR only got 6 months.


Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Slasher. One thing I can certainly dissuade you of is the idea they will be offering an "attractive" redundancy package. Not going to happen.
AQIS Boigu is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 10:47
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 577
I’m sure that you can use your extended furloughs to spare a thought for Barnaby and Merlin Swire who, despite losing £280 million last year, still managed to rise from 27th to (25th in the Sunday Times Rich List. Their net worth declined to a paltry £4,800,000,000....😑
Kitsune is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 13:03
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 9
Poor guys, maybe we could start a crowd fund?

a Rolls Royce oil change doesnít come cheap..
Oasis is offline  
Old 18th May 2020, 10:20
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Shh..
Posts: 36
In the US, airlines are cancelling new classes. Or even sending home new graduates of their classes. I propose we delay these new graduates in CX and say employ from 2022 when things pick up. In real perspective, they have zero or almost none Cx experience and you want them to keep your airline running? LIFO. Sorry kids.
carolknows is offline  
Old 18th May 2020, 10:53
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Straya
Posts: 7
Speaking of which, why would they still allow the low experience guy entering the workforce without paying anything upfront? As far as I know, many airlines do require a certain down payment from their perspective cadets and then reimburse them through salary once they start flying with them. Isn’t it another way to save cost?
ChrissyPrezzie is offline  
Old 18th May 2020, 11:36
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Shh..
Posts: 36
First of all, stop and get rid of any up and coming FTA classes right now and coming future. Delay newly employed graduates say 1 year later.
Does it make sense to keep pumping money into training these newbies and getting rid of experienced ones???
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Old 18th May 2020, 12:07
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 9
No it doesnít, rudderless ship it is.
Oasis is offline  
Old 18th May 2020, 13:23
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 52
Posts: 34
Course it does. They are on COS18, Dah.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 19th May 2020, 01:06
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: planet earth
Posts: 24
It could be a good thing for us. Be hard to justify making anyone redundant when they still have kids in the training pipeline.

Last edited by doolay; 19th May 2020 at 01:40.
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Old 19th May 2020, 13:16
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 2,015
Originally Posted by doolay View Post
It could be a good thing for us. Be hard to justify making anyone redundant when they still have kids in the training pipeline.
Remember when they werenít ďkidsĒ in the ďtraining pipelineĒ? It wasnít that long ago. What has happened to CX? So sad!
cxorcist is offline  
Old 19th May 2020, 23:50
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 76
So in summary, the company should have laid off guys a while ago, the more the better. Aviation is starting up again so best they lay them off before they need them. BA and itís competitors in Europe arenít laying off based on seniority, theyíre doing whatever they need or want to do and BALPA canít stop it.

But here in Hong Kong, the average more senior ppruner thinks - follow seniority, lay-off lots so the company is saved and I keep my job but btw donít downgrade me.
Pickuptruck is offline  
Old 20th May 2020, 01:18
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Yi Pak Wan
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Pickuptruck View Post
...But here in Hong Kong, the average more senior ppruner thinks - follow seniority, lay-off lots so the company is saved and I keep my job but btw donít downgrade me.
Yes. Because thatís exactly how the contract is written.
DessertRat is offline  
Old 20th May 2020, 01:34
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by DessertRat View Post
Yes. Because thatís exactly how the contract is written.
And as BA has stated, the choice is layoff as per contract and the company goes bust, or layoff as per what's feasible for the company's survival. So you're keen to layoff as per the contract so the company goes to the wall and 29,000 lose their jobs. You can't layoff on the 747 fleet, how are people so dumb they can't see that. Likewise if the company needs top drag from the 777 fleet to the 747 inspire of the Airbus, they will.

You need to go read BA's reply to BALPA.......
Pickuptruck is offline  
Old 20th May 2020, 04:33
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 516
I believe the HM's Exchequer said that there won't be money for 1000+ conversion courses in order to honor seniority.

Fleet layoffs are the requirement for government money to arrive at BA and VS.

Originally Posted by Pickuptruck View Post
And as BA has stated, the choice is layoff as per contract and the company goes bust, or layoff as per what's feasible for the company's survival. So you're keen to layoff as per the contract so the company goes to the wall and 29,000 lose their jobs. You can't layoff on the 747 fleet, how are people so dumb they can't see that. Likewise if the company needs top drag from the 777 fleet to the 747 inspire of the Airbus, they will.

You need to go read BA's reply to BALPA.......
AQIS Boigu is offline  
Old 20th May 2020, 05:14
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: planet earth
Posts: 24
It doesn't matter if it's COVID, SARS, GFC, 9/11...a Contract is a Contract. Otherwise where do the excuses end?

...'oh it's a Tuesday, we certainly can't keep to the Contract obviously it being a Tuesday and all.'

It's these sort of events that we are experiencing right now that are the exact reason we have legally binding Contracts, so Companies can not do whatever they please.
doolay is offline  

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