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Base Training, Command Courses, POS18 and job cuts

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Base Training, Command Courses, POS18 and job cuts

Old 15th May 2020, 16:26
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 591
Delta

15th

Delta announced that ALL of its 777 fleet + MD80s to be retired immediately.. That plus by end of the Government business assistance programs (~ August) it will have a SURPLUS of approx 7000 pilots. AA has hinted at 4800 !!!!
Passengers passing through US airports pre virus, 2.28 MILLION per DAY ! Now, 94k with no prospects of much improvement for 2 > 3 years.

Do the math...
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Old 15th May 2020, 16:57
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 819
Usual proforma being followed: first release a very downbeat article in the SCMP (....$4.5B loss in the first 4 months of the year ), then quickly follow up with the unfortunate news that they need to make drastic cuts to preserve the airline (with no mention of there being any snap backs when the situation improves, of course). Been there, done that too many times over the past 30 years.
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Old 16th May 2020, 00:31
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by Flex88 View Post
15th

Delta announced that ALL of its 777 fleet + MD80s to be retired immediately.. That plus by end of the Government business assistance programs (~ August) it will have a SURPLUS of approx 7000 pilots. AA has hinted at 4800 !!!!
Passengers passing through US airports pre virus, 2.28 MILLION per DAY ! Now, 94k with no prospects of much improvement for 2 > 3 years.

Do the math...
Uh... what are we supposed to do with this “math”? Not being a smart ass, but what precisely does 20k+ furloughed pilots in the US have to do with CX? I get that things are bad, really bad. So what? LIFO! If that means CX only needs 1000 pilots, then I guess my job will be in jeopardy. So be it!
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Old 16th May 2020, 02:43
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Uh... what are we supposed to do with this “math”? Not being a smart ass, but what precisely does 20k+ furloughed pilots in the US have to do with CX? I get that things are bad, really bad. So what? LIFO! If that means CX only needs 1000 pilots, then I guess my job will be in jeopardy. So be it!
Just a heads up so some can make plans CXORCIST.. But then if you want to come off as the guy with the biggest dick at CX, "so be it"
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Old 16th May 2020, 06:37
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
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COS18 Rev1........... the old version has been very silently amended.
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Old 16th May 2020, 08:02
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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Originally Posted by herewego75 View Post
COS18 Rev1........... the old version has been very silently amended.
So basically, the 500 COS18 guys, the most junior in the Company, won't be made redundant.



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Old 16th May 2020, 09:39
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
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this company does not lack imagination when it comes to screwing up their staff. Absolutely disgusting.
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Old 16th May 2020, 10:01
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
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More likely, they just lost the protection of LIFO.
Expect the senior guys (>55 years old captains) on POS18 to be screwed.

The other COS still retain the LIFO clause so can't be messed with.
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Old 16th May 2020, 10:04
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan View Post
More likely, they just lost the protection of LIFO.
Expect the senior guys (>55 years old captains) on POS18 to be screwed.

The other COS still retain the LIFO clause so can't be messed with.

it means they don’t get 6 months redundancy payment. Cheaper to make them redundant.
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Old 16th May 2020, 10:08
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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What if you issue a fire all and sign COS18? If redundancies now have to be made, your dearly earned number on the list is now worth nothing.

The reason I say that is because amendments on COS18 don’t affect anyone else except the few guys that are on it at the bottom, and it is clear the company is not interested in retrenching people on that contract.

Last edited by drfaust; 16th May 2020 at 10:25.
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Old 16th May 2020, 10:22
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
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The 500 COS18 are the Co's. Future and cheaper.. Why get rid?
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Old 16th May 2020, 10:36
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
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Originally Posted by drfaust View Post
What if you issue a fire all and sign COS18? If redundancies now have to be made, your dearly earned number on the list is now worth nothing.

The reason I say that is because amendments on COS18 don’t affect anyone else except the few guys that are on it at the bottom, and it is clear the company is not interested in retrenching people on that contract.
One more reason to not sign anything.
If they fire everyone to only cherry pick who they want back, that's cleary a circumvention of your contract. They can expect a long legal battle.

Don't forget we have more than second officers on cos18.
All the recent and future extendees are / will be on it.
​​​​​​They are happy with them on cos18... Until they are not.

Last edited by Zapp_Brannigan; 16th May 2020 at 13:43.
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Old 16th May 2020, 10:48
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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Disappointing that this was surruptitiously done on a weekend.
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Old 16th May 2020, 11:02
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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The 500 COS18 are the Co's. Future and cheaper.. Why get rid?
Because there are 1000's of guys that have served CX loyally for a much longer time providing safe, reliable and efficient service to their employer.
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Old 16th May 2020, 11:50
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
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Well, according to a friend of mine in management, what they don't want is to get rid of any 747 pilot.

Make what you want from that...
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Old 16th May 2020, 12:07
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
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Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan View Post
Well, according to a friend of mine in management, what they don't want is to get rid of any 747 pilot.

Make what you want from that...
This would be very very sneaky. As long as no one signs the rubbish POS18-1 then we will all be ok according to our current contract. But when has CX pilots ever come together!
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Old 16th May 2020, 12:50
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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If COS18 is forced on everyone via a sign or be fired, people can choose to not sign it and take their statutory redundancy.

If you do sign it, you will no longer enjoy LIFO protection based on seniority/redundancy lists. That being said the monetary incentive disappears for firing the senior and experienced, so those guys would very likely keep their employment.

So technically, for the company, it can be done. It would just require very very bold actions on their part. The crap part is we would all either end up unemployed or on a much worse contract, the good part is more people could remain employed.

Am I missing something?
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Old 16th May 2020, 12:55
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
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Yes, what you are missing is that if you don't feel coercised into signing a new contract, they can't make you redundant unless they've made all pilots junior to you redundant.

But if you want to volunteer to sign pos18, be my guest, ask your chief pilot. I am sure your efforts will be appreciated and well rewarded.
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Old 16th May 2020, 13:38
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by doolay View Post
Disappointing that this was surruptitiously done on a weekend.
What exactly did they do? I can't even see COS 18 on crew direct as I am not on that contract...
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Old 16th May 2020, 13:47
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Yup. Exactly, Zapp. And the other thing is that the company has contracts in jurisdictions where it cannot be easily modified (certainly not without the consent of the contractees). Seniority is the most clear cut thing in the contract and it's literally in black and white. So in some of those areas it requires layoff in reverse seniority order with definitive pay protection for those laid off in any case according to their contract. And those contracts are enforceable through the grievance process and/or court.

And it's not like the company could shut the base with the intent to dodge this responsibility on an existing contract. If this scenario occurred it almost certainly would go to court and relevant inter-company comms subpoenaed. Kind of like defrauding the residents of a town and then skipping town (with some type of store still in that town and a business in other towns). The officials would go after your store in that town and you certainly couldn't do business there anymore--and may well be able to attach assets from other towns to the debt.

In fact, given that the company has been paying taxes in the US for a degree of work performed there even for HKG based pilots, this might be one avenue for even those aggrieved there to pursue relief.

Like I said the contract is clear. If they want to furlough out of seniority they will have to pay those with seniority to allow this to happen (and the only real way to do it on some of the collective agreements would be to pay those individuals what they believed to be a reasonable sum to voluntarily leave or take a temporary hiatus). Or they will go to arbitration/court and lose anyway.
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