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Base Training, Command Courses, POS18 and job cuts

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Base Training, Command Courses, POS18 and job cuts

Old 13th May 2020, 04:53
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: HK
Posts: 21
Expat housing is an enormous cost for the company. There are career FO's accross the airlines who are making more in housing alone per year than captains make in total in other airlines. No doubt management would love to cut it severely, that's the unfortunate reality.
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Old 13th May 2020, 05:27
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Nimbus
Posts: 79
Funny to see junior pilots who are scared of losing their job transpose their wishful thinking into "facts" or "realities".

​​​The fact is nobody knows what is going to happen.
The fact is the benefits of trimming ARAPA would only bear fruit 12 months later.
The fact is that redundancies would benefit the cash position in the long term, not in the short term.
And who knows how long it will take for the demand to recover. Years? Perhaps. But the capacity could fall faster than the demand if other airlines keep on cutting their routes.
Remember SARS? Nobody predicted such a quick recovery.

The bases took a temporary 20% pay cut. If I had to speculate, I would guess that's what's coming.
I would happily take the hit to save YOUR job.
​​​​​​Keep on pissing us old farts off and maybe LIFO wouldn't look like such a bad idea.
​​​
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Old 13th May 2020, 05:35
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Somewhere in the Four Corners
Posts: 44
Looking for the bright side!

Originally Posted by herewego75 View Post
It's not my intention to get into a heated argument about the above. Let me just point out to you that the quality of training and checking requirements have drastically dropped world wide. Captains leave the very capable FO's to man the ship during the middle of the night through the ITCZ. If that does not show confidence then I don't know?

So yes I stand by my statement - we have very capable FO's that WILL pass their courses in the near future. Even if it means a few more sectors or a longer course. It will be a whole lot cheaper than keeping a guy on housing for 10 more years etc. So I believe that the ARAPA pilots will be given a 6-12 month notice, layoffs will not commence until the company have used up all its options. I hate to point out the obvious, but ARAPA is the biggest cost out of all benefits we as pilots are lucky to receive ( except our provident fund ) and its a POLICY.
The question is will the AOA protect the jobs of every pilot or rather the housing of a third of its pilots?

And as I said before we will see bases close, COS18 ( or a big pay cut for the next 6 months ), reduction in schooling allowance, provident fund cuts, more SLS etc

But look on the bright side we will most likely be the only airline that don't layoff crew and that will be a miracle in itself. EK and QATAR have slowly started this already.
Yes, we have some very capable FOís, without question. The reason that commanders often leave those FOís in charge through the ITCZ is not only as a result of their capabilities but due to fatigue mitigation, so they as commanders, have a semblance of alertness for the upcoming approach and landing. Youíre right, training standards the world over, have dropped but there are still standards nevertheless and make no mistake, CX is still very picky about its command standard.

I donít think for one minute that we all arenít going to experience cuts and probably, deep cuts at that. I also concede that ARAPA is very much in the cross hairs (and has been for sometime).


What you fail to appreciate however, is that the company needs to stem the cash haemorrhage now, not several months down the line and what you propose will take that, several months, at least and by then, there may well be an uptick in the industry. Also, the ďvery capable senior FOísĒ that are next in line for command upgrades, are most likely at the tail end of CoS99 or the beginning of CoS08 and therefore, all on ARAPA (LEPís excluded unfortunately). So, your proposal is cost neutral at best. However, if the company were to scrap ARAPA altogether (and thatís a distinct possibility), letting 500 captains go and lose all that experience on the flight deck to only then train up FOís to commanders, is illogical and I would bet, more costly than keeping everyone in their rank and just scrapping ARAPA.

The truth is, nobody knows what the company is going to do (maybe not even the managers themselves, right now) so, to try and second guess their decision, only sets you up for frustration and disappointment and upsets your colleagues in the process. Further, it is incumbent upon the HKAOA to fight for every pilotís contract, irrespective of what contract theyíre on and not rob Peter to pay Paul.

I am trying to look on the bright side and I sincerely hope we all get to keep our jobs with the minimum financial loss to ourselves and our families. Best of luck to us all.

Bo Wing is offline  
Old 13th May 2020, 06:04
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Hong kong
Posts: 32
Maybe closing Dragon with mass redundancies and integrating small percentage into other airlines on cheaper contracts would give the group the immediate cash savings it needs, then add onto the scrap of ARAPA with a short notice period would mean they are very much winning.. I guess itís coming soon.. letís see
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Old 13th May 2020, 06:09
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Docklands UK
Posts: 8
Aviation companies in Hong Kong have always had carte blanche to request work visas from the HK immigration department due to a lack of locally available talent, but times have changed. If you are a PR holder in Hong Kong and facing an uncertain future, your company cant let you go and then keep someone who is on a work visa sponsorship.

I have engaged the Hong Kong immigration department and they confirmed this emphatically.

Drop them an e-mail or a call they've been very helpful. The labour department will also help you in regards to your employment safety for permanent residents.

Hope this helps.
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Old 13th May 2020, 08:01
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: VenusVille
Posts: 303
Somebody just posted this on the ME Forum,

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...cash-injection
squarecrow is offline  
Old 13th May 2020, 08:37
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 547
Accommodation and Rental Assistance to Expatriate Officers is an element of our contract, “[to] be adjusted to reflect market conditions in Hong Kong”, although the specifics are indeed detailed in ARAP policy.

As such they would have a legal fight on their hands if they simply slashed that one aspect of our contracts after over fifteen years of precedent. If it were that easy they would have done it a long time ago.

Cuts and pain are coming one way or another, whether it be more SLS, LIFO, or even people on COS99/08/ARAP simply being “invited“ to leave in favour of cheaper COS18 crew, but no point in trying to outdo each other with doomsday scenarios, many of which smack of schadenfreude.

Stop tearing your hair out and doing the accountants’ job for them, do your own job safely instead (if you’re lucky enough to still be working) and stay healthy, and when the time comes and they tell us what their plan is, deal with it as your personal circumstances allow.
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Old 13th May 2020, 09:13
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: planet earth
Posts: 17
I wonder if they'll use that 'cash injection' for more Base Training in Macau?
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Old 13th May 2020, 12:40
  #49 (permalink)  
hyg
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by rustyoldtin View Post
Maybe closing Dragon with mass redundancies and integrating small percentage into other airlines on cheaper contracts would give the group the immediate cash savings it needs, then add onto the scrap of ARAPA with a short notice period would mean they are very much winning.. I guess itís coming soon.. letís see
Kinda feel sorry to the guys at Dragon to say this, but seriously, they are doing even less than the guys at Cathay at the moment, and with a number of cities in China shut down again according to mainland info, who knows when that China market will ever come back.... Shut down dragon, gives those guys a return package to HKE for DEC or DEFO at CX in the future at cos 18 or 20/21/22 when the market needs them... that would stop the some cash hemorrhaging right away....
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Old 13th May 2020, 13:08
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 11
Everyone is trolling everyone, no one can just bloody well sit on their hands.

Letís just hope the group makes the right decision and no oneís career is permanently damaged at the end of this.

This too shall pass..
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Old 13th May 2020, 13:48
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 218
The really ironic thing is not that long ago several folks completely sold their integrity to kowtow to the Bejing ChiComms in order to preserve overflight of China and appease the CAAC. (Very notably several individuals did not and my hat's off to them).

And now this happens.

Just goes to show if you make the right decision at the time -- one which preserves your self-respect, morals, and integrity -- you're never wrong. Some folks put too high a value on money and stuff and later find out they were chasing the wrong thing and wasted a significant fraction of their life. Who you are and what you do isn't defined by some number in some account somewhere.
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Old 13th May 2020, 14:10
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by hyg View Post
Kinda feel sorry to the guys at Dragon to say this, but seriously, they are doing even less than the guys at Cathay at the moment, and with a number of cities in China shut down again according to mainland info, who knows when that China market will ever come back.... Shut down dragon, gives those guys a return package to HKE for DEC or DEFO at CX in the future at cos 18 or 20/21/22 when the market needs them... that would stop the some cash hemorrhaging right away....
You really think we are doing anything significant except for the freighter guys? I kind of feel sorry for the pax fleets full stop. HKE are doing no flying at all the moment..........
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Old 13th May 2020, 17:03
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: H.K
Posts: 58
Some airlines like QF have different legal government policies which cater for Stand Down etc. Aus based CX crew took a big hit but better than a full Stand Down. These policies are suppose to be temporary and if going for long term then they go into full layoffs which is last in first out like almost every other airline in the world. Most other industry's have similar policy. So if these airline needs to restructure according to COS it will be last in first out and accept nothing else.

Before we get to that point when are we going to see redundancy in other departments? Every other airline chopped management positions and then went through the entire airline from top to bottom to cater for the new size of the airline. Need to see leadership from top to the bottom just because they once again think that pilots should be paid like bus drivers. Other airlines recognize that their pilots are front line staff and treat them accordingly and FAIR.
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Old 14th May 2020, 00:59
  #54 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 173
Originally Posted by Samsonite View Post
Before we get to that point when are we going to see redundancy in other departments? Every other airline chopped management positions and then went through the entire airline from top to bottom to cater for the new size of the airline. Need to see leadership from top to the bottom just because they once again think that pilots should be paid like bus drivers. Other airlines recognize that their pilots are front line staff and treat them accordingly and FAIR.
Cut costs: Merge the companies. Seperate branding if need be, but one DFO, one GMA, one GMO, deputies as required. One CMP to roster all including leave etc, one AVMED, one of all the back office functions which are currently duplicated. Want to cut ARAPA and education almost overnight? Follow Jepp recommendation (they are experts in efficiently - most hours for min cost) and base 1/2 your pilots.
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Old 14th May 2020, 01:23
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 2,009
Originally Posted by controlledrest View Post
Cut costs: Merge the companies. Seperate branding if need be, but one DFO, one GMA, one GMO, deputies as required. One CMP to roster all including leave etc, one AVMED, one of all the back office functions which are currently duplicated. Want to cut ARAPA and education almost overnight? Follow Jepp recommendation (they are experts in efficiently - most hours for min cost) and base 1/2 your pilots.
Well, that makes perfect sense! Surely CX wonít go with that plan.
cxorcist is online now  
Old 14th May 2020, 01:41
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 368
We've all seen in this pandemic, that there is no room for common sense, just take a look at government decisions from politicians in places like the USA and UK. Too little too late seems to have been their way of trying to deal with it.

Regarding PR employees versus simply being a HK ID card holder with residency on a work visa, that aspect may well be tested quite soon. Has legislation actually changed? If not, in 2008 this same aspect of LIFO versus government sentiment was looked at some 12 years ago, and whilst it was a government 'preference' at that time, our contractual LIFO trumped their preference of not making locals redundant. Ultimately, back then it didn't need to be tested.

I still think an incentivised early retirement scheme may be a great way to thin out some of the elder but more better remunerated pilots.
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Old 14th May 2020, 03:46
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 2,009
LTICX,

To be fair to the US and UK and other countries struggling, China and the WHO hid the nature of this virus for a long time. They exported it very intentionally by locking down domestic travel and keeping international open, all whilst not allowing the CDC and other western groups access. This naturally occurring corona virus MIGHT have been intentionally released from the Wuhan Institute of Virology where it was being studied. If not, it was an accidental release but intentionally allowed to spread globally. China is culpable, and everybody knows it. Those pretending otherwise are simply ignorant. This could be the start of a second Cold War. Certainly, an expansion of the recent trade war seems likely.
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Old 14th May 2020, 04:09
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: HK
Age: 49
Posts: 83
Originally Posted by hyg View Post
Kinda feel sorry to the guys at Dragon to say this, but seriously, they are doing even less than the guys at Cathay at the moment, and with a number of cities in China shut down again according to mainland info, who knows when that China market will ever come back.... Shut down dragon, gives those guys a return package to HKE for DEC or DEFO at CX in the future at cos 18 or 20/21/22 when the market needs them... that would stop the some cash hemorrhaging right away....
What about creating a cargo subsidiary with the 747 and furlough the passenger aircraft pilots ?
Wouldn't it save more money than cutting KA.?

Anyway longhaul is dead for years and 320/321 might be the future of aviation in many places.
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Old 14th May 2020, 04:18
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 368
Very telling that the originators, (shhh, we know who!) of the virus are crapping on all butt hurt about western countries, especially US and Aust calling for an independent enquiry into the origins.
Surely if you know who was innocent and not complicit in its origin, cover up, or spread of the Wuhan virus, then wouldn't they too want an enquiry.
Very telling that their puerile outbursts consist of "it's not fair/it's not helping/we're not going to buy Australian beef anymore"
Maybe it was an alien induced virus after all.
LongTimeInCX is online now  
Old 14th May 2020, 04:38
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 2,009
Originally Posted by bacou View Post
What about creating a cargo subsidiary with the 747 and furlough the passenger aircraft pilots ?
Wouldn't it save more money than cutting KA.?

Anyway longhaul is dead for years and 320/321 might be the future of aviation in many places.
Where do you guys get this crap? We are all on a common seniority list, and that needs to be respected. Period. Full stop. End of story. Any other machinations by CX (or you dweebs imagining their slimy, seniority avoiding plots for them) needs to be met with the full disdain and resistance of the collective pilot group.

CoS18 pilots and many more above them need to accept that you can and should be made redundant / furloughed. Iím not taking ANY concessions to keep you on the payroll. Itís not my job to do that. I have fought too hard for too long to have a decent career to take one in the chops so some almost, baby pilot can have a job flying widebodies.

Trust me, you will feel the same way when you are decently far up a seniority list listening to the whiny brats at the bottom talk about how the airline needs to get rid of you because youíre too expensive and your experience doesnít count for much.
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