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COS 99 extensions- seniority is over

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

COS 99 extensions- seniority is over

Old 20th Jul 2019, 18:49
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by Steve the Pirate View Post
OK, where do I start? I might be seen as a sarcastic wind up merchant by some but I like to think I often pose thought provoking questions. Not once did I imply that I thought Air Profit's points were invalid; I simply asked him what I felt to be a relevant question with regard to his statement about enjoyment of CX/HKG versus moving on to elsewhere. I agree, to some degree, that his own upcoming movements are irrelevant to his position but it would add credence to his argument if he were to state what is going on in his life vis-à-vis said position: he can't have it both ways, saying on one hand that people should seek employment elsewhere while at the same time 'enduring' his remaining time here - why not simply leave?

With respect to the ad hominem comment, he implied that he thinks that I'm apologist for the company when nothing in my post suggested anything of the sort. It seems that because I had the temerity to ask what I thought was a relevant question with respect to his position on this topic, rather than answering or debating he decided instead to label me as apologist for the company which, in my opinion, was a weak argument - in fact, a non-argument. To me, that would be the very definition of an ad hominem attack. Consequently, I don't agree (naturally) with your thin skinned assessment of my character.

For the record, I think that Air Profit makes some very valid points and I would certainly not encourage any of my children to join CX as it stands today. In fact I wouldn't encourage any of my children to follow a career in aviation because the halcyon days, that we all long for, are well and truly over.

STP
You ladies should get a room.

Meanwhile amongst the dozens and dozens of AOA members who applied, sadly only a few could be chosen. A committed and fortunate few who will remain in the AOA, as is their right, have been selected for management positions.

Switch off the oven and take out the CC/TB, it's completely cooked.........
Pickuptruck is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2019, 20:40
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 49
Posts: 213
STW was right. The AOA lost the game when they had it in the bag. The lack of unity that has always been the weakest link killed the game this time. The same as it did last time... Will anyone learn? I totally doubt it. The goose is cooked. The horse has been flogged. And you have expended your entire repoetoir of dance moves in the first minute of the song only to realise it's a 10 minute extended dance mix. Now you stand there doing the 80's side foot shuffle while everyone else cuts loose.
RAT Management is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2019, 03:08
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the road
Posts: 151
The AOA lost the game when they had it in the bag
I still find it disconcerting that people on these forums think the AOA are responsible for any of this.

What the AOA has done quite effectively is dramatically advance the game to the inevitable conclusion: the shortage of pilots due to the continued reduction of employment conditions. The AOA aren't the architects of this current mess, the Rhodes/Slosar supervised HR director and the DFO are. These two "Juniors" are incentivised financially to steal money from you and your family, so they are. More training captains now mean pilots become employable by QF and BA sooner. For any expat pilot (with a passport that is "usable") employed in the last 10 years, there is no longer a financial incentive to stay here, others now pay better and offer better career prospects. Especially now with COS18. Skilled and experienced Pilots are leaving en mass and replacements aren't even turning up for interviews.

The only way to "win the game" is to wait for the owners of this Airline to realise that long term profitability is at risk due to a couple of egos and director bonus packets. I wonder how long it will be before they realise these junior directors are about to cost them significant money and market share. Anyone want to be the new HR director?
mr did is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2019, 05:50
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by mr did View Post
I still find it disconcerting that people on these forums think the AOA are responsible for any of this.

What the AOA has done quite effectively is dramatically advance the game to the inevitable conclusion: the shortage of pilots due to the continued reduction of employment conditions. The AOA aren't the architects of this current mess, the Rhodes/Slosar supervised HR director and the DFO are. These two "Juniors" are incentivised financially to steal money from you and your family, so they are. More training captains now mean pilots become employable by QF and BA sooner. For any expat pilot (with a passport that is "usable") employed in the last 10 years, there is no longer a financial incentive to stay here, others now pay better and offer better career prospects. Especially now with COS18. Skilled and experienced Pilots are leaving en mass and replacements aren't even turning up for interviews.

The only way to "win the game" is to wait for the owners of this Airline to realise that long term profitability is at risk due to a couple of egos and director bonus packets. I wonder how long it will be before they realise these junior directors are about to cost them significant money and market share. Anyone want to be the new HR director?
So what you’re saying is the more that break the ban and join training the stronger the AOA’s position is in negotiations with the company?
Just, wow.
Put down the crackpipe. Guys aren’t leaving, this whole idea that we do nothing and resignations get us a payrise and better T & C is so retarded it defies belief.
But it’s easy.
Pickuptruck is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2019, 08:20
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 709
Face facts: CX is now basically a LCC in all but name. The morale is equivalent to the worst of the LCC world, and so are the relative pay and benefits. People are barely on the line 6 months and are already looking for better opportunities. Long term FO's (10-11 yr) are resigning and starting over at their home carriers. Sickness levels are at industry highs, and so on and so on. The game is over at CX. It's a "job", but not much else anymore. There is really no career left here, and certainly there is little hope of a financially rewarding one. If you have a family, you will barely be at subsistence levels. CX is now only a name, and the substance and uniqueness that once marked the airline as a special career opportunity is long gone. If you value your career, your health, your family's happiness, then the sooner you are with an established carrier back home the sooner life will settle down and you can start living again. Not many of us left at CX can say we are actually "living"....just lurching from one unsatisfying and fatiguing roster to the next.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2019, 08:48
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the road
Posts: 151
So what you’re saying is the more that break the ban and join training the stronger the AOA’s position is in negotiations with the company?
That's what you got out of the whole post?

Let me help you: whatever is happening in the heads of those who are breaking the training ban is for their own reconciliation, and reputations. Of course it doesn't help that some have chosen to do this, but the end game isn't materially affected as the package on offer now is so bad that market forces will make even that selfish act irrelevant. We are running out of pilots because the current money and career prospects are so rubbish that even with the new trainers, there aren't the resources to replace the hundreds that are waiting for start dates or retiring.

Lastly, you wont get a pay rise or better conditions for the rest of your time with this company. I think that is the "idea" most have, which is why they ARE leaving.
mr did is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2019, 12:53
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 49
Posts: 213
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Face facts: CX is now basically a LCC in all but name. The morale is equivalent to the worst of the LCC world, and so are the relative pay and benefits. People are barely on the line 6 months and are already looking for better opportunities. Long term FO's (10-11 yr) are resigning and starting over at their home carriers. Sickness levels are at industry highs, and so on and so on. The game is over at CX. It's a "job", but not much else anymore. There is really no career left here, and certainly there is little hope of a financially rewarding one. If you have a family, you will barely be at subsistence levels. CX is now only a name, and the substance and uniqueness that once marked the airline as a special career opportunity is long gone. If you value your career, your health, your family's happiness, then the sooner you are with an established carrier back home the sooner life will settle down and you can start living again. Not many of us left at CX can say we are actually "living"....just lurching from one unsatisfying and fatiguing roster to the next.
Spot on! Plus one from me.
RAT Management is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2019, 14:02
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 51
Posts: 41
Cathay is so short on pilots, they even offer unpaid leave now.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 21st Jul 2019 at 15:46.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2019, 17:25
  #129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by mr did View Post
That's what you got out of the whole post?

Let me help you: whatever is happening in the heads of those who are breaking the training ban is for their own reconciliation, and reputations. Of course it doesn't help that some have chosen to do this, but the end game isn't materially affected as the package on offer now is so bad that market forces will make even that selfish act irrelevant. We are running out of pilots because the current money and career prospects are so rubbish that even with the new trainers, there aren't the resources to replace the hundreds that are waiting for start dates or retiring.

Lastly, you wont get a pay rise or better conditions for the rest of your time with this company. I think that is the "idea" most have, which is why they ARE leaving.
You're full of BS. I've seen the figures and there ain't that many leaving. Even a monkey can read the seniority list and figure that out. Wish more would leave, then the company would be enthusiastic about extending the guys on RA55. If you wanted an obvious example of how the factual turnover isn't high, they're happy to let guys with a lot of experience head out the door at 55 because not many are actually quitting before then.



Pickuptruck is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2019, 18:37
  #130 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,821
Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Cathay is so short on pilots, they even offer unpaid leave now.
I haven’t heard a peep about unpaid leave. What fleet / seats?
cxorcist is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2019, 21:41
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 709
Pickup...I take it you are on 55 ? As for your "there ain't that many leaving" comment, I guess that's the reason i'm on overtime every month, I keep getting called out as relief when on reserve, and my emails to and from colleagues that have all left in the past 24 months or so are just a figment of my imagination. And yes, as Cxerocst says above, what unpaid leave/seats/fleets??
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2019, 00:16
  #132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 51
Posts: 41
Latest FCN
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2019, 01:48
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: FUMOD
Posts: 24
Offered all of July off as ULV plus two other opportunities earlier in 2019.

You might not think ULV is happening but then you might not have your finger on the pulse!

Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Latest FCN
Hugo Peroni the V is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2019, 04:00
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: www
Posts: 476
Had a chat with a colleague who works "upstairs". The ULV is not due to an "excess" of aircrew, it's due to CX's usual incompetence that has resulted in a misallocation of aircrew on the wrong fleets. The true measure of aircrew levels is whether or not all allowed leave is allocated across the airline. In fact, they barely allocated little more than half this years leave (doubt that, go and have a look at available slots vs number of crew in each position and base).
Apple Tree Yard is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2019, 04:20
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Somewhere in the Four Corners
Posts: 39
Really?

Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Cathay is so short on pilots, they even offer unpaid leave now.
Interesting interpretation STW. I interpret that FCN in that we have a dysfunctional and antiquated leave system and that our inept management completely dropped the ball when they released a wholly inadequate number leave slots during the initial leave bid and now, they’ve gone into crisis mode to address the leave imbalance, they alone, are completely responsible for.

However, you go right ahead and believe that management have this all under control and that nobody is leaving, whatever blows your hair back man.
Bo Wing is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2019, 05:10
  #136 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the road
Posts: 151
Or everyone is approaching 900 hours. Why pay crews to sit at home when you can have them do it for free
mr did is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2019, 06:41
  #137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 51
Posts: 41
I think it is all part of a cunning and insidious plot. By offering less and less money to new applicants, POS 18 to RA 55, plus unpaid leave for all, they want us to think there is no pilot shortage.

Then, when eventually all breaks down and nobody saw it coming, they will laugh last.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2019, 09:53
  #138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 579
If guys on bases in EASA territories are not getting their leave entitlement I suggest they report this to EASA, who will take immediate action...
Kitsune is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2019, 11:17
  #139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 324
Guys on bases especially in Europe will not report it. They are too afraid Cathay will just shut the base like they did in Paris Manchester etc
TurningFinalRWY36 is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2019, 22:31
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 550
Plot

Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
I think it is all part of a cunning and insidious plot. By offering less and less money to new applicants, POS 18 to RA 55, plus unpaid leave for all, they want us to think there is no pilot shortage.

Then, when eventually all breaks down and nobody saw it coming, they will laugh last.
What, you mean that plot that started in 1994 !!! Anybody that didn't see it coming had their FU**ING eyes wide shut just like winner STW does today. By the time he finishes he'll be living offshore in Davao on POS 25 still trying to save up for that 850 sq/ft North facing public flat for his wife and child...

#AOA is 100% useless

CX is toast..

#CXit


Flex88 is offline  

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