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COS 99 extensions- seniority is over

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COS 99 extensions- seniority is over

Old 13th Jul 2019, 08:28
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Suffice to say, I suspect the vast majority of pilots who have left the dysfunctional madhouse that is CX are not regretting their decision. One or two...maybe, but there are always a few who never find career stability and satisfaction. No doubting that such a concept is now nothing but an illusion at Cathay. Nearly all the FO's and SO's i've flown with in the past 24 months have indicated a desire to be somewhere else. And when I say "nearly all", I mean that specifically. Another sign of an abjectly failed management.
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Old 13th Jul 2019, 09:01
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So why do they stay then?

And is that also the fault of Cathay?

Every F/O and every S/O in the company has exactly the conditions of service he of she signed up for.

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Old 13th Jul 2019, 09:19
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Sam, that's the point...they aren't staying. Almost one a day at current rate. They barely have the same number on the seniority list today as a year ago...and they've hired about 350 cadets in that time. And yes, nearly everything negative about CX today IS the company's fault. I'd list them all, but this is a new computer and if I did so, it would be like ageing the keyboard by 5 years ! As for the current pilots having "exactly" the conditions they signed for, yes, and most have quickly realised it's unworkable in the long term, which is why most are quietly making plans to leave.
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Old 13th Jul 2019, 10:05
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Let's assume for the sake of the argument your numbers are right.

I don't understand why this is your or my problem. So they leave again, or think about leaving, or don't leave but would like to leave, or maybe they stay for now and leave in a few years etc etc.

So what?


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Old 13th Jul 2019, 13:58
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
Let's assume for the sake of the argument your numbers are right.

I don't understand why this is your or my problem. So they leave again, or think about leaving, or don't leave but would like to leave, or maybe they stay for now and leave in a few years etc etc.

So what?


High turnover rates are very bad for the airline over time. The product, culture, and ultimately profits (losses) of the airline become detached from those providing them. The intangible efforts trend towards zero, and all that is left is a zombie workforce churning out a marginal product, a negative culture, and very likely resulting in low or no profits.

Airline operations are not producing widgets (Coca Cola) in some Chinese factory. They are complex and dynamic. Western airlines have figured this out. Sadly, CX is where those airlines were about a generation (20-30 years) ago. The Management thinks it can simply cut its way to profitability. Wrong! They need to provide VALUE for both the customers AND the employees!!! Right now, they are doing neither in most cases.
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Old 13th Jul 2019, 20:19
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Have any of you ever worked for an airline that uses strict seniority which most here only quote when beneficial to them would know that many airlines with strict seniority have increased their retirement age. The younger generation in those airlines didn't complain as they too get to retire at 65 if they so wish.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 03:21
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Originally Posted by Samsonite
Have any of you ever worked for an airline that uses strict seniority which most here only quote when beneficial to them would know that many airlines with strict seniority have increased their retirement age. The younger generation in those airlines didn't complain as they too get to retire at 65 if they so wish.
Not just other airlines.

ICAO being lobbied by airlines, Airbus, Boeing, etc to make their first adjustment to retirement age since 2006.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 03:42
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Originally Posted by Progress Wanchai


Not just other airlines.

ICAO being lobbied by airlines, Airbus, Boeing, etc to make their first adjustment to retirement age since 2006.
The industry is projecting manning requirements based on RA65, but one common them is that pilots are just not lasting that long. I would say that 60 is the common retirement age within my peer group. The changes to the industry in remuneration and workload means that guys are finding the job is not worth it, or too exhausting. Or both. It's health vs wealth. There's no point in an early death as a rich man.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 09:10
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Originally Posted by Progress Wanchai


Not just other airlines.

ICAO being lobbied by airlines, Airbus, Boeing, etc to make their first adjustment to retirement age since 2006.

Right but you have never worked at an airline with 4 pay scales based on different life expectations.
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Old 16th Jul 2019, 05:45
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Originally Posted by Air Profit
Suffice to say, I suspect the vast majority of pilots who have left the dysfunctional madhouse that is CX are not regretting their decision. One or two...maybe, but there are always a few who never find career stability and satisfaction. No doubting that such a concept is now nothing but an illusion at Cathay. Nearly all the FO's and SO's i've flown with in the past 24 months have indicated a desire to be somewhere else. And when I say "nearly all", I mean that specifically. Another sign of an abjectly failed management.
And a year or so ago 92% of AOA members said they were looking elsewhere. CX pilots talk the talk and bitch and moan with the best of them but they donít walk the walk.
The fact is for all the ďeveryone I flew with is leavingĒ the numbers actually going are tiny. Yes it might have shot up a bit late last year and earlier this year but now itís back where itís been for the last 20 years.
No surprise the company isnít offering much in the pay talks.

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Old 16th Jul 2019, 05:55
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...."the numbers leaving are tiny"... You call over 300 a year "tiny". Ok, there is a place for you in management.
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Old 16th Jul 2019, 06:04
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Originally Posted by Air Profit
...."the numbers leaving are tiny"... You call over 300 a year "tiny". Ok, there is a place for you in management.
sadly there isnít 300 a year. It might have spiked there back in Jan and youíve multiplied by 12 and got all excited.
Weíre at 3%
The burning desire everyone has to believe lots are leaving month after month and the company is going to offer massive payrises as a result is delusional.
Facts vs la-la land.
Great for the company though, the deluded amongst us do nothing for the next 10 years, hanging onto CC/TB waiting for that pay offer.

Last edited by Pickuptruck; 16th Jul 2019 at 06:58.
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Old 16th Jul 2019, 06:15
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2019 will be the year of the reality check.

For 53% of the people in the UK and the 80% plus in CX that like to reject pay offers because they think they have leverage.

Sadly, in both cases the damage is done.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 16th Jul 2019 at 07:07.
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Old 16th Jul 2019, 07:16
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"The product, culture, and ultimately profits (losses) of the airline become detached from those providing them. The intangible efforts trend towards zero, and all that is left is a zombie workforce churning out a marginal product, a negative culture, and very likely resulting in low or no profits."

Possibly the best description of the modern airline business world-wide I've seen......................

It's what you get when barriers to entry are low and you give the customer exactly what they want
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Old 16th Jul 2019, 07:32
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I really wonder if I work in the same airline. What are you guys complaining about all day?

I look at my earnings last year, the hours flown, the number of days off, the savings I could made, gain of my real estate, just fine really. More than fine.Excellent actually.

I can't even remember a bad line check, I used business class ID90 multiple times, never got bumped off, my kids in excellent and mostly paid-for schools, I had 42 days of leave, the aircraft I operated were in good shape, new destinations, more a/c on order, etc etc

I don't get it.
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Old 16th Jul 2019, 07:55
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Good for you Sam. I'm sure that is just what most of the pilots at CX are experiencing. It's nirvana here.
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Old 16th Jul 2019, 09:04
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What is it that YOU find so intolerable?

You, as I presume, a B scale captain with housing like me.

What is it that makes life so miserable here that you complain since years now.

Give me five points.

Five hard facts that show the world how unfair, how bad it is here.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 16th Jul 2019 at 09:23.
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Old 16th Jul 2019, 09:21
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I'll answer that:

1) effective lack of control of your life
2) constant erosion of pay and benefits (below average pay raises/no pay raises)
3) extortionate staff travel costs (the newly hired pilots can't even afford to travel in J due cost)
4) if you are on the "wrong" fleet, you might as well be working for a different airline
5) unaccountable management

....you only wanted 5, could go on and on.
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Old 16th Jul 2019, 09:28
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Originally Posted by Apple Tree Yard
I'll answer that:

1) effective lack of control of your life
2) constant erosion of pay and benefits (below average pay raises/no pay raises)
3) extortionate staff travel costs (the newly hired pilots can't even afford to travel in J due cost)
4) if you are on the "wrong" fleet, you might as well be working for a different airline
5) unaccountable management

....you only wanted 5, could go on and on.

Exactly what I thought, you can't name anything real or tangible.

1) How so? You have two or three times more days off than any regular employee in any other industry.
What do you mean? Roster changes? Really?
2) You made what last year, 300 k USD after tax?
3) 4 sectors ID 90 business class for almost free for you and your familiy. And regular ID90 is not affordable or good enough for you? Please leave others out, only personal experience
4) I am on the "wrong" fleet. What exactly is wrong with 500 hours block per year and 200 plus days off???
5) What does that even mean?

You got nothing accountable, just what I expected.
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Old 16th Jul 2019, 09:40
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Cxorcist? Air Profit? Anyone?

Facts only!
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