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COS 99 extensions- seniority is over

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

COS 99 extensions- seniority is over

Old 18th Jul 2019, 03:42
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Anybody ever wondered why that mythical pilot shortage is always only about to happen ?








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Old 18th Jul 2019, 04:05
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Originally Posted by Natca
Farman - retire and enjoy your money and let the rest of us enjoy a normal upgrade time. RA65 will kill this airline.... want to see EVERY FO leave? Give these old folks RA65 and bye bye every COS08 person with any flight time..... RA65 instantly adds 5/10 years to any upgrade time. Where the rest of the world upgrade is 5-10 years to begin with, RA65 would be crewing suicide for an already understaffed in the FO level airline.
Wow!
How about ending CC and the training ban.

I'm surprised how most FO's can't see how they shot themselves in the foot with not accepting the last offer or the previous one that is.
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Old 18th Jul 2019, 05:33
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Anybody ever wondered why that mythical pilot shortage is always only about to happen ?
WW 2 veterans in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and Vietnam vets from the 70s until now. Tens of thousands of ex military pilots in the system, all the same age. All the Vietnam vets are in their 60s now hence the huge projected shortfall in the US due to those retirements. Same in Aus (massive QF recruitment) and the UK. (BA and Virgin) Combine that with subsidence living new pilot wages and conditions that stops most sane people from even looking at this as a career...

It's actually happening now.
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Old 18th Jul 2019, 05:41
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Natca maybe you werenít here for this quote?

Nick Rhodes ďtime to command will decrease with the introduction of RA65Ē

All of the FOís then experienced INCREASED time to command, so what is the difference with the next mob?

The whole industry has been affected by mandated RA issues.
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Old 18th Jul 2019, 05:47
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Agree, Mr Did. It's a process, not an event.
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Old 18th Jul 2019, 13:25
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Really ?

Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
Anybody ever wondered why that mythical pilot shortage is always only about to happen ?
Really ??


Perfect example of shortage, "you" got hired, !!
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 02:25
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Turbine,

interesting thought and you definitively got a point there, no doubt.

My counter argument would be a question: is it then always imperative to follow the mainstream, regardless of one's own conviction?

I would dispute that. There has to be a point were you just need to stand up for your opinion and refuse to follow the crowd.

The lack of commitment to a unified team you are accusing me of is exactly my argument.
You are rightly saying it doesn't matter if I am right or wrong as long as nobody is following me. But how many are following you? I did not think we have the unity in the first place, and I think history proved me right. You are asking me if I am on your team, but don't you see there is no such thing in Cathay? We are in at least a dozen different teams, all with our different priorities, may it be HKPA, RA55 or base XYZ. What might be right for one group is totally wrong for another. The unity you are asking for is not realistic in my opinion. I am just honest and pragmatic about it, and the reward is being shot as the messenger.

I deeply believe the strategy of the last years is wrong.If you have such a diverse group you will never be able to act successfully as aggressively and militant as it appears the plan is. It will fail.

Wether I am right or not in the end is a different matter. I frankly don't know nor can I ever know for sure.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 19th Jul 2019 at 10:53.
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 03:27
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The conviction that yours is the only opinion that matters is exactly why you will always be on the outside looking in. The power of any collective is measured in the commitment of its members to the benefit of all.
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 04:09
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But that is exactly my point. The power of our collective is in my opinion not strong enough because of the lack of commitment ( and diverse goals).

The problem is you guys act as if that unity was present ( and the legal framework) and just a few "outsiders" disagree. This is factual not the case.

It is not "only my opinion that matters", the problem is that there is no unified opinion.

Furthermore, the way these different opinions were met in the cockpit, on the HKAOA forum and in here (see Flex88 above) are not helpful. It is now too often a primitive shouting and blame game, a sure sign of the rising nervousness in the face of defeat. We will see a sharp fall in union membership rates is my prediction.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 19th Jul 2019 at 04:29.
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 12:48
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
But that is exactly my point. The power of our collective is in my opinion not strong enough because of the lack of commitment ( and diverse goals).

The problem is you guys act as if that unity was present ( and the legal framework) and just a few "outsiders" disagree. This is factual not the case.

It is not "only my opinion that matters", the problem is that there is no unified opinion.

Furthermore, the way these different opinions were met in the cockpit, on the HKAOA forum and in here (see Flex88 above) are not helpful. It is now too often a primitive shouting and blame game, a sure sign of the rising nervousness in the face of defeat. We will see a sharp fall in union membership rates is my prediction.
Sam ting Wong,

You make a valid point. I have never agreed with your opinions in the past, like we should have taken what was on the table in either of the last two offers. I still don't believe we would have been better off by taking them in the long run. And I am glad the union sent them back. Maybe that is the only victory we will have, because as you said the lack of unity displayed has prevented anything else from occurring.

So your observations about the lack of unity in the so called union are spot on. The strategy has failed,anyone who thinks otherwise, well you get the point. It's all over and the only thing for those still Manning the picket lines is to decide if they stay or go. Some have gone already and good luck to em. But for the rest, you need to make a choice.

Move beyond speaks volumes, is it a coincidence this is the motto the company is pushing so heavily.

FOP, have addressed the issues the last two ex DFO's created by imposing corrections to the ARAPA and HKPA and RPs. The morale on the other hand can't be imposed, and that I think is permanently damaged, because nobody except for the few who have recently crossed over give a damn! I have never seen that before!

Will we ever see a pay rise. I doubt it. Not unless market forces dictate. So that means all the B- scalers will wither on the vine and the C scale will also find themselves with the target on their back like the B Scalers were and the A Scalers before them, once the D scalers have critical mass.

Basically the only hope for anything by way of improvements in life style and financial reward will be dictated by market forces. With the demand for cheap fares, the line in the sand for pilot remuneration has been agreed by way of gentlemen's agreement in the dark halls of IATA.

For Fatiguing rosters that improvement will only come from individuals when there is a shift to using their professional obligations to not sign on rather than push thru. Unfortunately we have all been conditioned to completing the next task on the roster and believe just because it says it's legal means it must be do-able. But the reality is just cos it's legal it does not mean it's do-able in the long run or in combination with previous duties, or personal circumstances.

Game over.
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 00:16
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The only certainty is for a continual, slow but inexorable deterioration of our pay, benefits and working conditions. Each year without at last an inflation matching pay raise is a pay cut. CMP has effectively gutted what little control we had over our rosters, and the benefits and overall contract terms are now backstopped by COS18. The slow boiling of the frogs (us) is well and truly in the final temperature range resulting in death (and I mean that literally, as pilots are coming down with serious illness and sudden death at an all too alarming rate at this airline). CX management do not care one whit about your lifestyle, family concerns or overall long term health and care. Chew you up, spit you out, replace with cheaper. That is the entire business model summed up. If you like the sound of that, stay and enjoy. Otherwise, wake up and take advantage of the best hiring environment in 30 years. It won't last forever, and in the meantime many others are getting on those seniority lists ahead of you.
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 02:34
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Originally Posted by Air Profit
If you like the sound of that, stay and enjoy. Otherwise, wake up and take advantage of the best hiring environment in 30 years.
Serious question: what about you? Are you staying and enjoying or taking the advantage of the hiring market? I get the distinct impression that you don't enjoy it here so the logical conclusion must be that you're looking elsewhere - unless of course there are millions of reasons for you to stay? Even if you're coming to the end of your career, surely there's no reason to stay, other than financial, if you're so clearly miserable?

STP
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 03:42
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Steve, perhaps if you read some of my comments a few further back in the thread you could have saved yourself a bit of trouble and effort? Still, it's always interesting to come across implied apologists for the company. Don't know what the company would do without them...
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 04:30
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Originally Posted by Air Profit
Steve, perhaps if you read some of my comments a few further back in the thread you could have saved yourself a bit of trouble and effort? Still, it's always interesting to come across implied apologists for the company. Don't know what the company would do without them...
Air Profit, I've just re-read all of your posts on this thread, and the only comment that alludes to anything that vaguely relates to my question is this snippet:

Ultimately, many of us are close to leaving (as is myself) so it is academic.
However, my question is still pertinent I think. By being close to leaving do you mean looking elsewhere, or retiring? The inference I drew was that you are close to retirement, otherwise I sense you would have stated that you were close to heading off to greener pastures. In fact, I think you would have been unable not to tell us all that that was indeed the case. Either way, with reference to your leaving, define close. I think my point of staying if you're miserable, regardless of how long you have, is still valid - why waste your life?

I'm not an apologist, and the question really had nothing to do with the company but everything to do with you. However, if you'd prefer not to share then, by all means, carry on with the ad hominems.

STP
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 05:49
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Good grief Steve. You've spent years on this site being a sarcastic wind up merchant, and now you throw out the "ad-hominem" comment? The points that AP made were right on target. It's irrelevant what he is or is not doing personally. Doesn't take away from the cold hard truth he laid out. Seriously, thin skinned much?
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 08:59
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Originally Posted by Apple Tree Yard
Good grief Steve. You've spent years on this site being a sarcastic wind up merchant, and now you throw out the "ad-hominem" comment? The points that AP made were right on target. It's irrelevant what he is or is not doing personally. Doesn't take away from the cold hard truth he laid out. Seriously, thin skinned much?
OK, where do I start? I might be seen as a sarcastic wind up merchant by some but I like to think I often pose thought provoking questions. Not once did I imply that I thought Air Profit's points were invalid; I simply asked him what I felt to be a relevant question with regard to his statement about enjoyment of CX/HKG versus moving on to elsewhere. I agree, to some degree, that his own upcoming movements are irrelevant to his position but it would add credence to his argument if he were to state what is going on in his life vis-ŗ-vis said position: he can't have it both ways, saying on one hand that people should seek employment elsewhere while at the same time 'enduring' his remaining time here - why not simply leave?

With respect to the ad hominem comment, he implied that he thinks that I'm apologist for the company when nothing in my post suggested anything of the sort. It seems that because I had the temerity to ask what I thought was a relevant question with respect to his position on this topic, rather than answering or debating he decided instead to label me as apologist for the company which, in my opinion, was a weak argument - in fact, a non-argument. To me, that would be the very definition of an ad hominem attack. Consequently, I don't agree (naturally) with your thin skinned assessment of my character.

For the record, I think that Air Profit makes some very valid points and I would certainly not encourage any of my children to join CX as it stands today. In fact I wouldn't encourage any of my children to follow a career in aviation because the halcyon days, that we all long for, are well and truly over.

STP
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 18:49
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Originally Posted by Steve the Pirate
OK, where do I start? I might be seen as a sarcastic wind up merchant by some but I like to think I often pose thought provoking questions. Not once did I imply that I thought Air Profit's points were invalid; I simply asked him what I felt to be a relevant question with regard to his statement about enjoyment of CX/HKG versus moving on to elsewhere. I agree, to some degree, that his own upcoming movements are irrelevant to his position but it would add credence to his argument if he were to state what is going on in his life vis-ŗ-vis said position: he can't have it both ways, saying on one hand that people should seek employment elsewhere while at the same time 'enduring' his remaining time here - why not simply leave?

With respect to the ad hominem comment, he implied that he thinks that I'm apologist for the company when nothing in my post suggested anything of the sort. It seems that because I had the temerity to ask what I thought was a relevant question with respect to his position on this topic, rather than answering or debating he decided instead to label me as apologist for the company which, in my opinion, was a weak argument - in fact, a non-argument. To me, that would be the very definition of an ad hominem attack. Consequently, I don't agree (naturally) with your thin skinned assessment of my character.

For the record, I think that Air Profit makes some very valid points and I would certainly not encourage any of my children to join CX as it stands today. In fact I wouldn't encourage any of my children to follow a career in aviation because the halcyon days, that we all long for, are well and truly over.

STP
You ladies should get a room.

Meanwhile amongst the dozens and dozens of AOA members who applied, sadly only a few could be chosen. A committed and fortunate few who will remain in the AOA, as is their right, have been selected for management positions.

Switch off the oven and take out the CC/TB, it's completely cooked.........
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Old 20th Jul 2019, 20:40
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STW was right. The AOA lost the game when they had it in the bag. The lack of unity that has always been the weakest link killed the game this time. The same as it did last time... Will anyone learn? I totally doubt it. The goose is cooked. The horse has been flogged. And you have expended your entire repoetoir of dance moves in the first minute of the song only to realise it's a 10 minute extended dance mix. Now you stand there doing the 80's side foot shuffle while everyone else cuts loose.
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 03:08
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The AOA lost the game when they had it in the bag
I still find it disconcerting that people on these forums think the AOA are responsible for any of this.

What the AOA has done quite effectively is dramatically advance the game to the inevitable conclusion: the shortage of pilots due to the continued reduction of employment conditions. The AOA aren't the architects of this current mess, the Rhodes/Slosar supervised HR director and the DFO are. These two "Juniors" are incentivised financially to steal money from you and your family, so they are. More training captains now mean pilots become employable by QF and BA sooner. For any expat pilot (with a passport that is "usable") employed in the last 10 years, there is no longer a financial incentive to stay here, others now pay better and offer better career prospects. Especially now with COS18. Skilled and experienced Pilots are leaving en mass and replacements aren't even turning up for interviews.

The only way to "win the game" is to wait for the owners of this Airline to realise that long term profitability is at risk due to a couple of egos and director bonus packets. I wonder how long it will be before they realise these junior directors are about to cost them significant money and market share. Anyone want to be the new HR director?
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Old 21st Jul 2019, 05:50
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Originally Posted by mr did
I still find it disconcerting that people on these forums think the AOA are responsible for any of this.

What the AOA has done quite effectively is dramatically advance the game to the inevitable conclusion: the shortage of pilots due to the continued reduction of employment conditions. The AOA aren't the architects of this current mess, the Rhodes/Slosar supervised HR director and the DFO are. These two "Juniors" are incentivised financially to steal money from you and your family, so they are. More training captains now mean pilots become employable by QF and BA sooner. For any expat pilot (with a passport that is "usable") employed in the last 10 years, there is no longer a financial incentive to stay here, others now pay better and offer better career prospects. Especially now with COS18. Skilled and experienced Pilots are leaving en mass and replacements aren't even turning up for interviews.

The only way to "win the game" is to wait for the owners of this Airline to realise that long term profitability is at risk due to a couple of egos and director bonus packets. I wonder how long it will be before they realise these junior directors are about to cost them significant money and market share. Anyone want to be the new HR director?
So what youíre saying is the more that break the ban and join training the stronger the AOAís position is in negotiations with the company?
Just, wow.
Put down the crackpipe. Guys arenít leaving, this whole idea that we do nothing and resignations get us a payrise and better T & C is so retarded it defies belief.
But itís easy.
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