CX is a case study in how most companies fail
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As for career earnings, there is more to a career than money. Quality of life is obtained within a proper seniority system with roster bidding, proper work rules (RPs), fleet transfers, trip drop and pickup, etc. CX has none of that and probably will never have it because the clowns running things don’t have the capability or the knowledge required to get it done.
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And if you fly for a loco in the UK....you are living in the UK. Not in HK with the worlds highest cost of living. You are the one living in 1975. Why don't you save what's left of your reputation and leave CX management. They (and everyone associated) will one day be used as a business case study on how to destroy a once healthy and thriving airline. Must be good to know you are striving to contribute your own little piece of happiness to that outcome. The pilots of the airline at least accomplish something honourable. You and your ilk have no redeeming qualities in what you do.
ps: I love the attempt to suggest that really working for LCC wages is better. We should do that here at CX....oh, wait.
ps: I love the attempt to suggest that really working for LCC wages is better. We should do that here at CX....oh, wait.
Last edited by Trafalgar; 12th Mar 2018 at 23:47.
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....and btw MC, CX could have 'owned' the HK low cost operation, but they focused on attacking their aircrew the past 25 years instead of starting a viable low cost carrier, and allowed their hold on HK to be stripped away. Epic own goal.
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Face it. Swire management is wholly unsuited to running an airline. They only succeeded in the past because of the monopoly they held in HK. Now that that is no longer the case, they have been stripped naked and found out to be the incompetent bunglers they probably always were.
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“You’re living in 1975.” ....Says Morningcoffee....the guy/gal living in 1875.
It is laughable to suggest a pilot would earn more money working for a loco versus a career at BA? Such jaw dropping statements usually come from the mouths of such brilliant aviation thinkers like Michael O’Leary. Indeed, in that business model an imposed pay cut would equate to more money in your pay packet, less conditions of service are better than more, imposed RPs better than negotiated RPs, inexperience better than experience, up is really down, black is really white....and hedged fuel costs are the way of the future....
MorningCoffee, please do go on. Tell us that the AOA are the bad guys...please enlighten us with your brilliant analysis.
It is laughable to suggest a pilot would earn more money working for a loco versus a career at BA? Such jaw dropping statements usually come from the mouths of such brilliant aviation thinkers like Michael O’Leary. Indeed, in that business model an imposed pay cut would equate to more money in your pay packet, less conditions of service are better than more, imposed RPs better than negotiated RPs, inexperience better than experience, up is really down, black is really white....and hedged fuel costs are the way of the future....
MorningCoffee, please do go on. Tell us that the AOA are the bad guys...please enlighten us with your brilliant analysis.
Last edited by raven11; 13th Mar 2018 at 04:15.
MourningCafe,
CX/Swire scored an epic own goal by not establishing and growing a LCC in HK. Instead they sat back and said it would never work in HK. Then they burnt cash and effort to actively oppose and destroy such ventures as Oasis and J*HK. Meanwhile HKA/HKE flourished as the Swire boys were distracted and so arrogant to believe they were the big boys in town. Sizing yourself up against HNA and the Beijing CCP boys is not a wise thing to do, the colonial days are long gone.
Also, the Aust based guys are not joining Aust airlines because of seniority, a concept that CX/Swire has ignored and morphed to their advantage.
CX/Swire scored an epic own goal by not establishing and growing a LCC in HK. Instead they sat back and said it would never work in HK. Then they burnt cash and effort to actively oppose and destroy such ventures as Oasis and J*HK. Meanwhile HKA/HKE flourished as the Swire boys were distracted and so arrogant to believe they were the big boys in town. Sizing yourself up against HNA and the Beijing CCP boys is not a wise thing to do, the colonial days are long gone.
Also, the Aust based guys are not joining Aust airlines because of seniority, a concept that CX/Swire has ignored and morphed to their advantage.
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So you’re all saying HKA is wonderful because their fares are cheaper and they pay their pilots about 60% of what a B scaler earns. But you want to keep getting paid what you’re on now. And no one can live in Hong Kong on what C scalers get paid but there’s HKA again paying C scale pay.
There is absolutely no logic to the pay us more argument if you’re going to drag HKA into it.
There is absolutely no logic to the pay us more argument if you’re going to drag HKA into it.
HKA fills "value for money" niche & pays less
Airlines in the US/ OZ/ EU have coped by 'unbundling' & being clever about selling extras, allowing them to still pay decent salaries. Basically taking account of the human behavior that people will nickel & dime when buying something in advance/ with research, but will impulse buy at high price - i.e. an overpriced coffee at the airport. So bait people in with low basic prices, then make the margin on selling stuff to make the trip bearable when the customer can no longer switch.
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It is possible for both statements to be true.
HKA fills "value for money" niche & pays less
Airlines in the US/ OZ/ EU have coped by 'unbundling' & being clever about selling extras, allowing them to still pay decent salaries. Basically taking account of the human behavior that people will nickel & dime when buying something in advance/ with research, but will impulse buy at high price - i.e. an overpriced coffee at the airport. So bait people in with low basic prices, then make the margin on selling stuff to make the trip bearable when the customer can no longer switch.
HKA fills "value for money" niche & pays less
Airlines in the US/ OZ/ EU have coped by 'unbundling' & being clever about selling extras, allowing them to still pay decent salaries. Basically taking account of the human behavior that people will nickel & dime when buying something in advance/ with research, but will impulse buy at high price - i.e. an overpriced coffee at the airport. So bait people in with low basic prices, then make the margin on selling stuff to make the trip bearable when the customer can no longer switch.
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The annual results will prove this airline is doomed. The management will have convinced themselves the only answer is to attack their staff, which of course will ensure even more internal chaos and a continuation of the death spiral we are now trapped in. To anyone 47ish or younger. Get away as far and as fast as you can. What remains of your career potential depends on it. Doubt me? Stay here and then try and argue that fact through the tears you and your family assuredly will be weeping. Make the break and don't look back. It's over.
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Having seen it first hand all these 'managers' are spoon fed the same drivel at a number of 'business schools'
You run an airline like you run a biscuit factory: every process broken into cost elements, no intrinsic knowledge of how it all fits together and does what ti does...Just focus on the cost and reduce it! KPI are set to solidify this process and it becomes a death spiral.
You run an airline like you run a biscuit factory: every process broken into cost elements, no intrinsic knowledge of how it all fits together and does what ti does...Just focus on the cost and reduce it! KPI are set to solidify this process and it becomes a death spiral.
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Yeah - there seems to be a number of people who believe CX management are evil geniuses, pulling insanely profitable scams via fuel hedging/ sister companies. I can see that that is more comforting than the belief that they are incompetents out of their depth, because evil geniuses could, if they so desired, recover the situation.
Basically, what's more likely, our managers cocked up, or are part of a complex conspiracy? I wish they had the competence to be part of a complex conspiracy, but fear they are dunderheads
Basically, what's more likely, our managers cocked up, or are part of a complex conspiracy? I wish they had the competence to be part of a complex conspiracy, but fear they are dunderheads
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Which HAECO ??
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Yep - but not very well hidden. HAECO Americas lost 1,483m HKD (see page 4 of the results)
I still reckon - cockup, not conspiracy. HAECO Americas just shows that operating in the first world, with strong competition, without captive customers is tough for them. The review says they lost "a major customer" in 2017 and 14% of US staff
I still reckon - cockup, not conspiracy. HAECO Americas just shows that operating in the first world, with strong competition, without captive customers is tough for them. The review says they lost "a major customer" in 2017 and 14% of US staff
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Yeah - there seems to be a number of people who believe CX management are evil geniuses, pulling insanely profitable scams via fuel hedging/ sister companies. I can see that that is more comforting than the belief that they are incompetents out of their depth, because evil geniuses could, if they so desired, recover the situation.
Basically, what's more likely, our managers cocked up, or are part of a complex conspiracy? I wish they had the competence to be part of a complex conspiracy, but fear they are dunderheads
Basically, what's more likely, our managers cocked up, or are part of a complex conspiracy? I wish they had the competence to be part of a complex conspiracy, but fear they are dunderheads
- Michael Scott
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The conceit and arrogance is stunning. Especially in light of the fact that they have proved they have no idea what they're doing.
Loco means lower pay but quicker upgrade. If young you're better off in a legacy airline as you will have more years in the left seat on captains pay to break even and then get ahead vs an earlier upgrade but lower left seat pay in a loco.
For an older joiner, a loco will be a better bet because of the limited number of captain years he will do in a legacy after waiting 15 years for an upgrade.
For an older joiner, a loco will be a better bet because of the limited number of captain years he will do in a legacy after waiting 15 years for an upgrade.
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I think MorningCoffee is slightly misled. There has been in BA recently a trend of very junior commands on the A320 fleet but this was due to a series of events that are unlikely to be repeated: the merger with BMI and the excess of pilots culminating in the recent DEP hiring process, although the jury is out now on whether more recruitment is desperately needed. This led to some very junior commands hence the pay points were also at a junior level. The money in easyJet is very good on UK bases as a captain but what morningcoffee fails to realise is that the job is impossible long term and hence the reason why part time is there if needed. At least in BA you can transfer from a 320 command to a long haul command and enjoy the lifestyle that ensues. 747 being the next junior command now after the minibus.
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The (mis-) management has made an absolute mess of the airline, and then they predictably blame employee costs and a challenging revenue environment. Quite literally, the airline would be far better off if the “Management” had just done nothing, which they finally realized and are currently “doing” now that action is required to fix the mess.
The consider the 'parts'. Not the whole.
Modern business school practice divides segments/cost centres into segmented units where costs are identified and reduced. Usually tied to performance of individuals 'making decisions'. The thing to remember is that these 'decision makers' know little of how it all fits together, nor do they care; their bonus oftentimes depends on simply turning inwards and hacking at the cost base.
Emphasis on labour unit cost is easy work, hacking into terms and conditions is child's play.
The problem is for an airline a people centric dynamic team sport is obvious; you piss off a lot of people that ultimately when aggregated keep the whole thing going.
Labour costs are a given and the ex (w)banker authoring the article is trained as (w)bankers are. Value propositions are very much relevant, so are operating margins, but to paraphrase (badly) Herb Kelleher from South West airlines:
You can have the lowest cost airline or the highest revenue airline and still go broke. What matters is the gap between your revenue and your cost.
Real airline people understand the reality, you folk there see it everyday.
Herb built it from the ground up, he understands exactly how it all fits together.
The idiots 'in charge' do not self reflect like professional pilots do, their whole working life is about avoidance of accountability for errors. Whether they work at CX or a telecommunications company their job is unchanged; spread sheets and identify cuts.
Thanks Oasis, summed up eloquently my thinking:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
- Michael Scott
- Michael Scott