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Pay negotiations concluded

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Pay negotiations concluded

Old 6th May 2015, 05:27
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 103
No. Do not think it is a good deal.

First of all, 4.5% is what we should have got anyway. Like every other staff member in HK.

Second of all, with RP protections thrown out, it will effectively be a massive gain in productivity for the company, with a massive decrease in our salary to work ratio. We will be even more exhausted working harder for less. With no protections.

We will be contributing so much more to the overall profit margin through our extra work, yet, when profit sharing comes around - we will again be given the least. Again, management will grant themselves record bonuses for their fabulous work!

Thirdly, What happens next year when the company announces all "eligible HK staff" get (-.-)% (I can guarantee it will be higher than 3.5%)?
- We will be locked in at 3.5% and can do nothing until 2017 in regard to CC and pay.

Vote no, for the sake of your dignity at least!!!!!
Surely you are worth more than that??!!!!!

Last edited by anotherbusdriver; 6th May 2015 at 05:55.
anotherbusdriver is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 08:46
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: London
Posts: 49
No more multi-year deals!

I said it last year and I'll say it again, in these uncertain times we cannot afford to enter multi-year pay deals, we'll lose every time!

Most have forgotten or simply don't realise that years ago the Company persuaded us to forego annual pay negotiations in return for profit sharing... we all know where that has led us!

We have to return to annual bargaining for inflation related salary adjustments, just like everyone else! Time and resource consuming it may be but the Company has saved itself a small fortune since it last paid the relevant profit share to its aircrew; or maybe most of you believe HK$2000 adequately compensates you for the annual loss of spending power and static input to your pitiful retirement packages.
Silent Running is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 10:44
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Here
Posts: 343
RP15, two man OZ, 3 man Europe/Vancouver all for 4.5%/3.5%, great deal for the company!
Threethirty is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 10:45
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Australia
Age: 50
Posts: 107
The Lord giveth & the Lord taketh away !

You can have your 4% 4.5% 5.0% or 10% but I guarantee you will just loose it somewhere else & end up with the 3.0% they planned on giving from the start. They will get it back on RP's, OT, rostering, O days rostered after reserve, 2 man crew, 3 man crew, housing allowance, shorter aircraft ratings, shorter or no base training, shorter or no handling sims, more expensive staff travel, reduced "quality" health care approved treatments & coverage, travel insurance, hotel allowances, hotels etc...every one of those things is being hit hard or will be hit hard in the next 12 months. The only thing on the rise is the share price (from $14 to $20 in 6 months), dividends & management bonuses. We are working for a company that couldn't care less about moral (check their response & action to the survey response = Nil) or where this will lead in 5 years. It's a sad state or affairs, I'm not saying I have the answers but I am saying I care less & less about CX every day & that ain't what you want from a guy flying a heavy jet all night to the other side of the world. Chances are guys like me won't even be here in 5 years & that's a shame!
stevieboy330 is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 11:32
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 103

What???... Nowhere have I stated anything like 9%. I would just like to see a fair cost of living increase.

Do you think we deserve LESS than every other HK employee?

First of all, to clarify: I believe negotiations are pointless when in fact the outcome is that we are given LESS than every other "eligible HK employee" as a cost of living increase. No productivity gains, no reductions required from them. Just for turning up.

And then we are given a lock-in figure, which is going to be lower than next year's cost of living increase for everyone else, I would bet on it.

Anything less than what the rest of our "people, they make an airline" staff get, is just a slap in the face. Why not just settle on the annual "cost of living increase". We will get it anyway, when no agreement is forthcoming. We are giving up our big gun Contract Compliance for nothing. How stupid are we if we say yes?!!!!

Secondly, the fact that the company has decided to delete RP's agreement, without compensation for the extra workload we will have to cover, for NADA, NOTHING! NIL! ZILCH???!!!!!... Come on, we should be in CONTRACT COMPLIANCE ON THIS ISSUE ALONE!!!!!!

Remember when AKL and ANC went 3 crew?... That was negotiated for a 14% credit factor. I do hope that they will pay the 14% credit factor for 3 man Europe. What is the credit factor increase for 2 man Oz??.... Do we have any higher than 14%.... because I know from experience 2 crew through the night is worth more like a 50% credit factor. Let alone 14%.

So many reasons to say, "no thanks".

Last edited by anotherbusdriver; 6th May 2015 at 13:05.
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Old 6th May 2015, 13:42
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,539
I understand that the initial reaction will be to vote 'yes', as a sense of fatigue and relief combine to push us in that direction. As other posters have mentioned before me, the company is once again selling us a trojan horse. Inside the horse is a complete dissembling of our work rules through the suspension of RP's. The changes in RP's effectively nullify the value of this pay raise. I say again: the pay raise is a mirage under the new RP environment. Even prior to the suspension of RP's, they have already drastically lowered the quality of life for those on bases with the single act of cancelling A days. Imagine how bad it will get for all of us when they start tinkering with every single facet of our operation and lives.

I say that the ONLY way this is voted through is with an amendment to the suspension of RP's. The oompany agrees to keep the current RP's in effect until proper negotiations have been completed. This with the knowledge that CC will be implemented immediately if any degradation to our work rules and quality of life ensues from the resulting RP package.
Trafalgar is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 14:12
  #47 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 262
RP's was never supposed to be part of these talks, wasn't this a stipulation?
This was only about pay, the next talks will cover RP's, don't muddy the waters, keep it simple.
Oasis is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 14:29
  #48 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,539
Oasis, you are technically correct, however in the interim, the company has been arbitrarily amending established work rules (A days), attacking our staff travel, suspending RP's (instead of stating they will remain in place until a new negotiated package is agreed). Why should be suspend something that is obviously working, and putting intolerable pressure on the company. Suspend them for pay, and then immediately reimpose them for all the other travesties that they are committing. The only group 'muddying the waters' is the company. Always has been.
Trafalgar is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 16:29
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
Posts: 353
That's not muddy waters you're looking at.
That's your bowels after cx shoved the RP's up there with a cricket bat. It wasn't the AoA who decided to lump them together.

Anyone thinking that things can't get worse with rostering need to ring a mate at Emirates or SQ.
With rostering incorporated into OMPA it can be amended on a whim.
Eg, res call outs within 75min (as per the girls)
Call 8929 at 6am on every O day to be prepared to start work 10 hours later.
All G's to disappear to be replaced by O days.
Call the JRC and complain? The JRC will be gone.
A former GMA has already made noises about ditching proffering.
Rostering requests? For trainers only. Ditto mutual exchange.

Contract compliance in 2017 will be a strike. Nothing else will affect them.
Roll over on this issue and we're done.

Last edited by Progress Wanchai; 6th May 2015 at 16:50.
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Old 6th May 2015, 23:05
  #50 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: heads down trying to figure out Chinese RVSM
Posts: 197
I disagree. Silberfuchs said it right:

It should only be about inflation and the cost of living in HK.
Who gives a toss what a Capt at EK or BA makes?
Single digit pay raise? You've been conditioned to the crumbs that the corporation has been tossing at you.
Hellenic aviator is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 23:52
  #51 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ceduna
Posts: 132
pay offer

I agree with DB. Take the money and keep CC until we get our RPs back. CC is a big stick they obviously have a problem with.Stay on the road and stick together.
routetuner is offline  
Old 7th May 2015, 00:00
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 262
I reckon it would cause more havoc if we went out of CC for a few months and then use it again if the new RP's are not acceptable.
It also shows them how much our goodwill would benefit them.

Imagine; everything would run on time again, no cancelled flights, you can hear a pin drop in crew control...
If you are in constant CC, you are losing the benefit of the bad, if you don't show the good every once in a while.
Oasis is offline  
Old 7th May 2015, 05:52
  #53 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Kowloon
Posts: 286

Should we be concerned about this? Our valued cx passengers
Soul planet is offline  
Old 7th May 2015, 06:46
  #54 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ceduna
Posts: 132

We should keep our foot on the their throats, don't stop CC. They "ripped up" our lifestyle, after the fact. It is NOT attached to pay anymore. Play hard ball with these people, it's what they play with us so we must reciprocate.
routetuner is offline  
Old 7th May 2015, 09:39
  #55 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
Posts: 93
Absolutely, let's keep the CC going until ALL the issues are sorted.

The big issues are yet to be addressed.

Pay negotiations with our 'caring' employer are like bartering with a whore - you might make or save a few dollars here and there, but at the end of the day you're going to get fukked anyway.

Flying Clog is offline  
Old 7th May 2015, 10:51
  #56 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired-ville
Posts: 393
I'm with oasis on this one.
It may be hard for CX to actually realise how much CC is affecting them, when it's in place constantly.
If for example the percentage pay changes (it's not a payrise) are accepted, we as an Association could say we will cancel CC straight away, eg 1st June, the AOAGC give their members the directive/suggestion, that in order to show them how much good will is actually worth, that the members should help out above and beyond if the individual sees fit, but.... with the effin' big caveat, that if RP's are not sorted to the NC's/GC's/members satisfaction by 1 July, we give them just ONE month only, then we go back into a full, unified CC squared.
Let them see what a huge and sudden effect, a large contrast in a lack of enthusiasm to only do whats professionally required, will have.

Turning the heat on and off may be one of the more effective ways of getting the message across that they need to be professional too.
Historically, their workplace relationship efforts have been amateurish at best.
So sad when this could still have been a great company where employees are happy to and enjoy helping out, because they are respected and appreciated.
Clearly not the case at present.

Heat off, heat ON+
LongTimeInCX is offline  
Old 7th May 2015, 11:49
  #57 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: hong kong
Posts: 397
Voting this payrise in because of the upcoming RP negotiations is a HUGE mistake
Our snakehead masters are well ahead of us on this one
Do not be sucked into voting for this lets face it another sh#t payrise to concentrate on something were all going to get fukked on anyway
This BS from RF about concentrating on the RPs and HKPA is utter nonsense
Wise up boys and girls
Cx are two steps ahead of us already , vote this in and you will pay
goathead is offline  
Old 7th May 2015, 12:54
  #58 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 471
Coming out of CC--if we believe it is working and are using it to accomplish goals--is a REALLY REALLY bad idea. If the company is good at anything, it's good at bean counting and crunching numbers. It keenly knows what CC is doing and what it's costing already. We have been seeing real results of its effectiveness, which didn't happen right away. Moreover, we have the advantage of having a (n experienced) pilot shortage on our hands and training pilots has a healthy lag time. AND are finally somewhat organized in the effort. Even if we were to 'come out' with negotiations still in play we'd have varying degrees of individual participation and philosophy. Better to stay the course.

But the main thing is that CC takes a fair bit of time to fully ripple through and is more of a war of attrition tactic--especially for those who aren't participating and have to be 'timed out'. Like a temporary cease fire, removing it only gives the opposition time to regroup and rearm--and develop countertactics for when it kicks in again. And this whole thing has been timed such that the TA will (likely) be ratified right as we approach the busy summer travel season. If we knock it off now, the major effects of CC won't be back in place until the lull in October. We've made this mistake before.

We can all be friends again after common goals are achieved. Don't forget that we tried for years to avoid this confrontation to no avail. Common goals could be achieved in a week if the company were genuinely interested in win-win solutions and real negotiation. When folks are happy they are VERY productive.
Shep69 is offline  
Old 7th May 2015, 14:04
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: hong kong
Posts: 397
So until their is a motion passed for CC to continue under the premise of ' until Rp's and HKPA are sorted to our collective agreement'

goathead is offline  
Old 7th May 2015, 23:56
  #60 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 521

Yes go ahead don't accept the offer and wait another year and get a similar offer or worse because the economy has worsened. You will never recoup the money lost!

The vote for CC was only for PAY, was it not, so future votes will be required for CC in relation to RP's etc etc.
iceman50 is offline  

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