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Retirement at 68

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Retirement at 68

Old 4th May 2012, 14:21
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 511
Badair...

You obviously do care how long it is until I retire....you said so! And I'm not the one complaining....that's you!

Now count to ten before you go near the keyboard...then offer something substantive.
raven11 is offline  
Old 4th May 2012, 14:27
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Honkers
Posts: 383
Now count to ten before you go near the keyboard...then offer something substantive.

Please feel free to take your own advice.
badairsucker is offline  
Old 4th May 2012, 14:43
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 599
raven11 and badairsucker

Pistols at dawn gentlemen?

STP
Steve the Pirate is offline  
Old 4th May 2012, 14:49
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Honkers
Posts: 383
Steve,

I prefer hand to hand combat.
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Old 4th May 2012, 15:20
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 511
Badair...

Have your second talk to my second.....
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Old 4th May 2012, 15:30
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Honkers
Posts: 383
I only do face to face.
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Old 4th May 2012, 15:44
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 599
Marquess of Queensberry it is then.

Mr badairsucker, of course it will be face to face but Mr raven11 suggested, quite correctly I might add, that your second should contact his to arrange a mutually agreeable time for the duel to take place.

Should your second not contact his within 24 hours then I shall assume you forfeit and I shall have no choice but to declare Mr raven11 the winner of this most bitter dispute

STP

Last edited by Steve the Pirate; 4th May 2012 at 15:59.
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Old 4th May 2012, 17:15
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: cloudcuckooland
Posts: 145
Raven,
To say that CX trainers are second to none is like Australians saying that Australia is the best country in the world.
Maybe one or both of the above is true but who is the judge? Who should be the judge? You? Trainees?
CX training is political minefield, full of ego,constantly changing operating procedures (CCOP's), and those who want to leave their own little legacy on the aviation world.
(i.e. Big fish,Small pond syndrome)
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Old 4th May 2012, 22:38
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 511
1200...

Valid points, no one likes a braggart.

But if you reread my post it was in response to some sarcasm and ridicule that suggested that Cathay's training was not as good as training systems in other airlines.....

I said that the Cathay system was not perfect, but second to none....or words to that effect. By saying second to none my point was that it was at least as good as any other system out there. That was the context, and that's how feel.

There is no doubt in my mind that during the eighties and nineties, yes, Cathay's training was more checking than training. During the nineties, as a North American based F/O, there were a couple of individuals that I never wanted to fly with...and we all knew who they were. But those of us who have been here for a while can attest to how much the training system has changed. The bad guys have mellowed, or they have been culled.

In my opinion, Cathay's training system is world class....it has to be! Just look the challenges we face in our day to day operation......management takes for granted that any one of us can safely operate on slippery runways in a snow storm, or into a typhoon, on Yankee One, through tropical storms, during 300 ton landings in a monsoon, a sandstorm in Dubai, or a line check to Manilla...the list is endless. Given some very challenging emergency situations in the past couple of years, our management should thank their lucky stars that we are the pilots we are.

Cathay's training system is not perfect...and we have room to improve.....but it is world class, it has to be for us to survive, and the IOSA audits say so.

I'm proud of who we are and what we do and how we do it!

This airline gets top value from every penny they pay us! That too should be read in the results of the IOSA audits.....and from the annual results reported each March.

Given their recruitment issues....it's no wonder they want to retain their experienced pilots. But does any one of us seriously believe we could fly to age 68?

Most of us won't make 65.
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Old 4th May 2012, 23:21
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: U.K.
Age: 71
Posts: 215
Raven
"Cathay's training system is not perfect...and we have room to improve.....but it is world class, it has to be for us to survive, and the IOSA audits say so."

A bold statement!

Without geting into a discussion on the state of Cathay's training system I think that you might first want to look at the list of IATA registered airlines, i.e. those that have successfully completed an IOSA audit.

There are some on the list that I would definitely avoid.

Bear in mind that an audit is a sampling exercise and does not purport to be a total systems review. Additionally airlines receive a lot of prior notice about when an audit will take place and have some time to get their house in order.

"Forewarned is forearmed", I believe is the saying.

I have carried out around one hundred audits, non IOSA but I have completed an IOSA auditor's course. What I have found, around the world, is that if the Regulator is doing its job and the Operator has a sound Quality Management department, half the batle is won.

I will let you decide where HKCAD and CX stand on that point.

P.S. I survived 20 years (as a victim) of Cathay's training system - it worked alright for me!
FERetd is offline  
Old 5th May 2012, 02:00
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: in Vigo (Spain)
Age: 57
Posts: 3
Question

hello my pilot friends..!! thats possible i need information about line training with possibility of working, im spanish pilot i have got around 300 h fly experience, i,m 50 years old... what are my possibilities?... thank you very much, i hope your answers please..
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Old 5th May 2012, 03:35
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wingham NSW Australia
Age: 79
Posts: 1,349
CX Training

I think the discussion on the quality of the CX training system is a futile one. It should be obvious to any fair minded individual that CX, like any other organisation, will at times appoint people to positions for which they are unsuited. CX's record over many years is enviable. That is despite some whom, whilst excellent "stick & rudder" operators, could not train a duck to swim. The number of training people unsuited to the task were very much in the minority in my experience with CX, just as were the "check" members. Obviously things change and I am in no position to comment on the current situation. It would seem to me, from afar, that much of what Raven11 has posted is plausible. Some other posters seem to have a very large chip on one or both shoulders and would likely have the same chips no matter for whom they worked. Make the most of what CX offers folks and if you don't enjoy being there go find somewhere else to make you feel better.
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Old 5th May 2012, 03:39
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: africa
Age: 34
Posts: 137
Cathay guys are very good for sure ...however one also has to admire Brian Clough (ex manager of Derby County Rip):

'Im not saying that i was the best manager in the business ,but i was in the top one '

safe flying guys.

Last edited by camel; 5th May 2012 at 03:52.
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Old 5th May 2012, 03:48
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,933
Regardless of what you think about the CX training department, they are not good enough to facilitate guys flying to 68!

Also, Camel says CX pilots are "very good for sure." I won't disagree as I am one, but we often look and sound pretty stupid in the US with our inability to accept and fly a visual approach. Talk about making mountains out of molehills...
cxorcist is offline  
Old 5th May 2012, 05:49
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Where You Aren't
Posts: 518
I saw a great visual approach the other day!

ILS/autopilot to 1,000'; LAND3 Rollout armed, Flare armed; ILS missed approach briefed for a cleared visual approach.

CAVOK and winds straight down the runway

If we can't fly a visual approach properly in those conditions, when can we ever?

Look at NTC about how to fly a visual approach. How many pages is it? Three?

Unbelievable!
Oval3Holer is offline  
Old 5th May 2012, 05:54
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,933
My point exactly Oval!

I'd love to here the training boys justify the visual approach buffoonery we witness daily.
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Old 5th May 2012, 10:47
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: U.K.
Age: 71
Posts: 215
CX Training

Old Fella

You say:-

" Obviously things change and I am in no position to comment on the current situation."

"Make the most of what CX offers folks and if you don't enjoy being there go find somewhere else to make you feel better."

You are indeed in no position to comment on today's Cathay Pacific. I note that you are 71 years old. That being the case, you would have retired from Cathay 16 years ago around 1996. That would have been on an A scale provident fund ?

Good luck to you, I hope that you have a good and long retirement.

Unfortunately those at CX do not enjoy these priveleges and frequently do 90 hours per month - which would have doubled your monthly salary during your time. Roster and life style are continually being eroded -remember you were contracted for 70 hours per month with credits for Reserve duty, Simulator time and positioning.

You suggest "go find somewhere else" .. but where? People have invested a good portion of their working lives to CX. Even if they found a position as a DEC at another airline they could not make up for that lost time and would never enjoy the retirement benefits that you enjoy even if they worked to 65.

Sadly todays' airline industry is not what we enjoyed. The lack of any morality is prevalent in most of today's operators and in that Cathay leads the way and has done since around 1994. Remember COS 94 - sign or you'll never get another pay rise and will never be eligible to go on a base? Remember ASL? I do, I was a victim along with 41 of my loyal colleagues. And then there were the 49ers!!!!

Whereas in our day CX recruited experience, today's CX recruits cheap labour and strives to make that labour cheaper still.

You and I should be grateful for what we have and should have some sympathy for those that thought they were joining a caring and moral Company only to discover, perhaps to late, that the Company they joined is morally bankrupt.
FERetd is offline  
Old 6th May 2012, 08:10
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hk
Age: 62
Posts: 153
Visual approaches

Sitting on the threshold at Kansai r/w 24. Beautiful day and every one doing visual approaches.....except CX...asking for the ILS24. This is what we have come to..it was so embarrassing. I wanted to use a different call sign for take off.
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Old 6th May 2012, 08:32
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: traveling
Posts: 91
PanZa-Lead, I agree 100%. Embarrassing.
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Old 6th May 2012, 09:36
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wingham NSW Australia
Age: 79
Posts: 1,349
A Scale Provident Fund

FERetd. Regardless of when I retired, which in fact was 1991, my comments are not made without sympathy for those whom are not happy in the employ of CX. My experience with CX left me with good memories only. I know things do change and that is why I said what I did. In my working life one thing I quickly learned was that it is very difficult to be very good at a job you do not enjoy. To those whom feel badly treated at CX I would always suggest that they vote with their feet. To do otherwise must invariably lead to an unhappy life, life which is too short to be ruined by bitterness.
Old Fella is offline  

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