Welcome back pollution :(
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For what it's worth, I do have a problem with people who choose to believe in any particular deity, all of them
I don't necessarily see tolerance as a "Christian" value but a human one. I don't think that anyone has the right to prevent people from believing in whatever they choose, whether it's a deity, the Higgs boson or that, in fact, 42 is the ultimate answer.
STP
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Pollution and Christianity? Good to see that both topics are consided in the same vein. It is quite hard to clean them both up, wouldn't you agree? Dirty emissions is what it is all about, just ask any choir boy!
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Skillet, it's pretty clear you don't like real debate about the actual evidence so let me just finish with the following.
You and I are exactly the same, we just believe different things. We both hold beliefs we can't prove or know 100% are true but we believe them anyway. This my friend is called faith.
The silly word games atheists use like 'lack of belief' or 'you can't prove a negative' to describe atheism is nothing more than that, silly word games. It is obvious you hold a positive belief, otherwise why go to all the effort to refute Christianity, if you were consistent then why would it matter? In the last face to face debate I had with an atheist, he even admitted directly he KNEW there was no God. The sad thing was he couldn't even see he just undermined his entire position (the debate was initially about faith versus 'reason').
Ultimately the scientific method can never investigate the question of God, or lack thereof, because by definition He is outside it's reach. The headlines we see in the media proclaiming the latest great discovery of science is really just secular scientists interpreting the data to conform to what they already believe, hardly an unbiased search for truth.
With respect Skillet, the very obvious 'evangelical zeal' you show in your posts belies the fact that deep down you know God is there, you just don't like Him. Romans 1 says "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse".
God bless.
P.S. The pollution is terrible!
You and I are exactly the same, we just believe different things. We both hold beliefs we can't prove or know 100% are true but we believe them anyway. This my friend is called faith.
The silly word games atheists use like 'lack of belief' or 'you can't prove a negative' to describe atheism is nothing more than that, silly word games. It is obvious you hold a positive belief, otherwise why go to all the effort to refute Christianity, if you were consistent then why would it matter? In the last face to face debate I had with an atheist, he even admitted directly he KNEW there was no God. The sad thing was he couldn't even see he just undermined his entire position (the debate was initially about faith versus 'reason').
Ultimately the scientific method can never investigate the question of God, or lack thereof, because by definition He is outside it's reach. The headlines we see in the media proclaiming the latest great discovery of science is really just secular scientists interpreting the data to conform to what they already believe, hardly an unbiased search for truth.
With respect Skillet, the very obvious 'evangelical zeal' you show in your posts belies the fact that deep down you know God is there, you just don't like Him. Romans 1 says "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse".
God bless.
P.S. The pollution is terrible!
There is no 'god'.
There is no 'life after death' just as there is no life before birth.
Get over it, and get back to the
thread.
There is no 'life after death' just as there is no life before birth.
Get over it, and get back to the
thread.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 11th Sep 2011 at 07:42.
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Question: "Does God exist? Is there evidence for the existence of God?"
Answer: The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists: “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6). If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith. “Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’” (John 20:29).
That does not mean, however, that there is no evidence of God’s existence. The Bible states, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1-4). Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunset—all of these things point to a Creator God. If these were not enough, there is also evidence of God in our own hearts. Ecclesiastes 3:11 tells us, “…He has also set eternity in the hearts of men.” Deep within us is the recognition that there is something beyond this life and someone beyond this world. We can deny this knowledge intellectually, but God’s presence in us and all around us is still obvious. Despite this, the Bible warns that some will still deny God’s existence: “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1). Since the vast majority of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, and on all continents believe in the existence of some kind of God, there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.
In addition to the biblical arguments for God’s existence, there are logical arguments. First, there is the ontological argument. The most popular form of the ontological argument uses the concept of God to prove God’s existence. It begins with the definition of God as “a being than which no greater can be conceived.” It is then argued that to exist is greater than to not exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist. If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God.
A second argument is the teleological argument. The teleological argument states that since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a divine Designer. For example, if the Earth were significantly closer or farther away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, nearly every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10243 (that is a 1 followed by 243 zeros). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.
A third logical argument for God’s existence is called the cosmological argument. Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That “un-caused” cause is God.
A fourth argument is known as the moral argument. Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from a holy God?
Despite all of this, the Bible tells us that people will reject the clear and undeniable knowledge of God and believe a lie instead. Romans 1:25 declares, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.” The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in God: “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).
People claim to reject God’s existence because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that once they admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from Him (Romans 3:23, 6:23). If God exists, then we are accountable to Him for our actions. If God does not exist, then we can do whatever we want without having to worry about God judging us. That is why many of those who deny the existence of God cling strongly to the theory of naturalistic evolution—it gives them an alternative to believing in a Creator God. God exists and ultimately everyone knows that He exists. The very fact that some attempt so aggressively to disprove His existence is in fact an argument for His existence.
How do we know God exists? As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day. We do not audibly hear Him speaking to us, but we sense His presence, we feel His leading, we know His love, we desire His grace. Things have occurred in our lives that have no possible explanation other than God. God has so miraculously saved us and changed our lives that we cannot help but acknowledge and praise His existence. None of these arguments can persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge what is already obvious. In the end, God’s existence must be accepted by faith (Hebrews 11:6). Faith in God is not a blind leap into the dark; it is safe step into a well-lit room where the vast majority of people are already standing.
Recommended Resource: I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist by Norm Geisler and Frank Turek.
Answer: The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists: “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6). If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith. “Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’” (John 20:29).
That does not mean, however, that there is no evidence of God’s existence. The Bible states, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1-4). Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunset—all of these things point to a Creator God. If these were not enough, there is also evidence of God in our own hearts. Ecclesiastes 3:11 tells us, “…He has also set eternity in the hearts of men.” Deep within us is the recognition that there is something beyond this life and someone beyond this world. We can deny this knowledge intellectually, but God’s presence in us and all around us is still obvious. Despite this, the Bible warns that some will still deny God’s existence: “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1). Since the vast majority of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, and on all continents believe in the existence of some kind of God, there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.
In addition to the biblical arguments for God’s existence, there are logical arguments. First, there is the ontological argument. The most popular form of the ontological argument uses the concept of God to prove God’s existence. It begins with the definition of God as “a being than which no greater can be conceived.” It is then argued that to exist is greater than to not exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist. If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God.
A second argument is the teleological argument. The teleological argument states that since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a divine Designer. For example, if the Earth were significantly closer or farther away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, nearly every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10243 (that is a 1 followed by 243 zeros). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.
A third logical argument for God’s existence is called the cosmological argument. Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That “un-caused” cause is God.
A fourth argument is known as the moral argument. Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from a holy God?
Despite all of this, the Bible tells us that people will reject the clear and undeniable knowledge of God and believe a lie instead. Romans 1:25 declares, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.” The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in God: “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).
People claim to reject God’s existence because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that once they admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from Him (Romans 3:23, 6:23). If God exists, then we are accountable to Him for our actions. If God does not exist, then we can do whatever we want without having to worry about God judging us. That is why many of those who deny the existence of God cling strongly to the theory of naturalistic evolution—it gives them an alternative to believing in a Creator God. God exists and ultimately everyone knows that He exists. The very fact that some attempt so aggressively to disprove His existence is in fact an argument for His existence.
How do we know God exists? As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day. We do not audibly hear Him speaking to us, but we sense His presence, we feel His leading, we know His love, we desire His grace. Things have occurred in our lives that have no possible explanation other than God. God has so miraculously saved us and changed our lives that we cannot help but acknowledge and praise His existence. None of these arguments can persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge what is already obvious. In the end, God’s existence must be accepted by faith (Hebrews 11:6). Faith in God is not a blind leap into the dark; it is safe step into a well-lit room where the vast majority of people are already standing.
Recommended Resource: I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist by Norm Geisler and Frank Turek.
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Still not debating, just making some points intended only for those capable of rational thinking with an open mind and the ability to properly reason and use actual logic (i.e. not what some erroneously perceive to be reasonable and logical thinking - some need to research the difference, I think!):
I don't think Hitler was an atheist, based on the available evidence, although this is arguable since he may have changed his mind at some time. Regardless, the point is that nothing he did was done in the name of atheism or Christianity any more than it was done for the sake of mustaches. Hitler did, however, target Jews, people identified by their Jewish faith. Same applies to Stalin, etc. The 9/11 terrorists, the Crusades, circumcision, fatwas, Inquisition, Indian bombings, Arab-Israeli wars, most of the former Yugoslavian atrocities, etc., were all specifically done in the name of religion, which is the stuff I was talking about. Of course other atrocities were done for other reasons, but I was not talking about those.
One day people will realize that the Bible is not a valid reference for any position, and what it states is irrelevant. If "holy books" were references, why don't we have anyone using the Sikh or Mormon (etc.) books? If I write a book supporting my position and then use quotes from it to prove I am correct and that the "book says so" does that add value to any argument?
You can only prove or disprove things that actually exist. That's why we can't prove or disprove the existence of flying pink unicorns any more than this whole absurd god argument. It does not take faith to deny belief in someone else's unfounded assertions. It takes faith to believe in unfounded assertions, like religious people do (with no evidence). Christians typically deny belief in Hindu, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist and all other non-Christian beliefs, yet that does not take any faith on their part to do so, does it? It does not take any faith in others to deny belief in Christian stuff either. Repeating logical fallacies do not make them true, either.
If someone asserts that flying pink unicorns exist, then the burden is upon them to prove it if they want others to understand or believe or respect what they say. Stating that atheism is a belief is not correct just as stating that bald is a hair colour is absurd and invalid. Atheism is a lack of belief in all of the deities and faith-based belief systems that others have claimed. Most religious people are only atheists about all deities except their own, and fail to notice the irony.
The level of religious extremism or fanaticism is not a factor in establishing the validity of a belief. Even if belief in a belief system occasionally provides someone with comfort or relief or whatever, what they believe or the result of their belief is not a factor in establishing the validity of the belief. That is what evidence is for. By evidence, I mean real evidence, not a story book: Santa's story being written down does not make that one true either. Etc. Really, really liking a story, or liking how old it is, or quoting its own story book, or anything else that is not evidence, are equally irrelevant in determining the validity of a belief.
Have a nice day!
I don't think Hitler was an atheist, based on the available evidence, although this is arguable since he may have changed his mind at some time. Regardless, the point is that nothing he did was done in the name of atheism or Christianity any more than it was done for the sake of mustaches. Hitler did, however, target Jews, people identified by their Jewish faith. Same applies to Stalin, etc. The 9/11 terrorists, the Crusades, circumcision, fatwas, Inquisition, Indian bombings, Arab-Israeli wars, most of the former Yugoslavian atrocities, etc., were all specifically done in the name of religion, which is the stuff I was talking about. Of course other atrocities were done for other reasons, but I was not talking about those.
One day people will realize that the Bible is not a valid reference for any position, and what it states is irrelevant. If "holy books" were references, why don't we have anyone using the Sikh or Mormon (etc.) books? If I write a book supporting my position and then use quotes from it to prove I am correct and that the "book says so" does that add value to any argument?
You can only prove or disprove things that actually exist. That's why we can't prove or disprove the existence of flying pink unicorns any more than this whole absurd god argument. It does not take faith to deny belief in someone else's unfounded assertions. It takes faith to believe in unfounded assertions, like religious people do (with no evidence). Christians typically deny belief in Hindu, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist and all other non-Christian beliefs, yet that does not take any faith on their part to do so, does it? It does not take any faith in others to deny belief in Christian stuff either. Repeating logical fallacies do not make them true, either.
If someone asserts that flying pink unicorns exist, then the burden is upon them to prove it if they want others to understand or believe or respect what they say. Stating that atheism is a belief is not correct just as stating that bald is a hair colour is absurd and invalid. Atheism is a lack of belief in all of the deities and faith-based belief systems that others have claimed. Most religious people are only atheists about all deities except their own, and fail to notice the irony.
The level of religious extremism or fanaticism is not a factor in establishing the validity of a belief. Even if belief in a belief system occasionally provides someone with comfort or relief or whatever, what they believe or the result of their belief is not a factor in establishing the validity of the belief. That is what evidence is for. By evidence, I mean real evidence, not a story book: Santa's story being written down does not make that one true either. Etc. Really, really liking a story, or liking how old it is, or quoting its own story book, or anything else that is not evidence, are equally irrelevant in determining the validity of a belief.
Have a nice day!
Last edited by Iron Skillet; 11th Sep 2011 at 09:57.
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Science requires no faith, i.e. Belief without evidence, your Christian get clause is John 20:29, if you want to throw bible verses around. Belief used in religious terms verses scientific enquiry is completely different and frequently abused by evangelists. Religiously it is:- "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence".., plus others, but essentially the same.
In a broad sense per say, scientific reasoning (devil word!!) it would be the "Informal" usage of the word faith which can be quite broad, and the word is often used as a mere substitute for trust or belief. Do you get the difference. You evangelists talk about a play on words, well there you go, hypocrites!
It is the religious types that carry such retarded thinking drawing totally on one very doubtful document (pls choose your version here) to support their faith, to kill, to condemn, to vilify, to isolate, to segregate, to mutilate, to hate and to denigrate!
As a non-believer I don't hate you nor condemn you to eternal hell fire, which you do if I don't embrace your beliefs. This demonstrates your innate hateful nature if you are prepared to accept that premise for the remainder of humanity - can you not see that. Where is your compassion? Are you happy to condemn millions upon millions from the past, to now, and the future? This makes beliverers even more disgusting than Hitler, if we talk in relative numbers of souls to hell. Even those without knowledge of your "good" book you will condemn all! What a disgrace!
Like pollution there is a glimmer of hope that reason, commonsense and compassion will prevail over the stench of superstition. In the words of Pat Condell," I don't respect your beliefs, And I don't care if your offended." This is about your beliefs, not you.
In a broad sense per say, scientific reasoning (devil word!!) it would be the "Informal" usage of the word faith which can be quite broad, and the word is often used as a mere substitute for trust or belief. Do you get the difference. You evangelists talk about a play on words, well there you go, hypocrites!
It is the religious types that carry such retarded thinking drawing totally on one very doubtful document (pls choose your version here) to support their faith, to kill, to condemn, to vilify, to isolate, to segregate, to mutilate, to hate and to denigrate!
As a non-believer I don't hate you nor condemn you to eternal hell fire, which you do if I don't embrace your beliefs. This demonstrates your innate hateful nature if you are prepared to accept that premise for the remainder of humanity - can you not see that. Where is your compassion? Are you happy to condemn millions upon millions from the past, to now, and the future? This makes beliverers even more disgusting than Hitler, if we talk in relative numbers of souls to hell. Even those without knowledge of your "good" book you will condemn all! What a disgrace!
Like pollution there is a glimmer of hope that reason, commonsense and compassion will prevail over the stench of superstition. In the words of Pat Condell," I don't respect your beliefs, And I don't care if your offended." This is about your beliefs, not you.
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Bob Hawke. Your comments are beyond absurd. They are so far from the truth of what I believe and what my feelings about non-believers are that to even comment is giving them legitimacy that they truly do not warrant. However, because they are so absurd I feel they must be refuted, if for no other reason than to ensure that others are not poisoned by your distorted and bitter remarks.
I do not 'condemn you to hell' (nor would any other true believer. A true Christian deeply loves and cares about his fellow man). You (and most non-believers) totally misunderstand the reason that hell exists (we can leave the idea of what hell is for another discussion). God does not 'hate' a single non-believer. It is simply the fact that man has separated himself from God by choice. Mankind himself is condemning his eventual deliverance to hell because of HIS rejection of God, not God's rejection of man. God does not wish to lose a single soul, but because free choice is crucial to the value of God's love for us, it has to be based on free choice. As an example, if you have children, and they were forced to tell you they loved you, would that statement and any subsequent relationship with them have any value? No, it would not. The only true value in them telling you they love you is if it is done out of their free will. To force such a statement out of them would be the most hollow thing you could ever experience. It is no different with God's love towards us. For it to have any value we must have a choice. Free choice to love God, but also free choice to reject him.
I do not wish any of my fellow human beings to be delivered to 'hell', but that is not my choice, it is theirs. Ironically, it is not God's choice either. He felt that the choice of willingly loving him was worth giving us, as it defines the only real value of such love. In fact, it defines the purpose of our very existence. That is why your comments are so offensive. You grossly misrepresent the fact that believers understand that it is mankind that has gone wrong, not the entity that created us. God knew that only truth and justice can define our (and His) ultimate value. His creation can only have eternal value if it comes to him voluntarily. Without that we may as well be programmable robots. I would never want that from my children...why would God want it from his...?
There was a reason that God became man and came to live amongst his creation in the person of Jesus Christ. God loves us so much that He was willing to sacrifice his only Son (who was perfect and blameless and without sin) to provide a bridge between our worldly existence and the completely pure and different dimension that is the existence that God inhabits. What most people do not realise is that their souls are really the 'real' them, and our physical bodies are simply a vessel that we inhabit before we embark on our eternal existence.
You don't have to believe. God gives you that free choice. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that a free choice means an absence of choice. There is no middle ground. God paid for your life with the heaviest price possible, the cruel and unwarranted death of HIS only Son. He insists you make a choice. You will then have decided which side of history you stood. God imbued us with intelligence, conscience, responsibility and finally, eternal choice. God came to earth the first time to save mankind. The second time will be to judge. When the whole natural world starts to melt away suddenly, and you are left staring into the face of God himself, it will be too late then to make the choice. God has been giving mankind the benefit of his Love and patience for two thousand years. I suggest that that period of history is rapidly coming to a close. Make your choice Bob, but don't suggest that those of us who have chosen to love the living God have anything but compassion and love for you and every other of our fellow human beings. It is simply that I can't make the choice for you, and I will not allow you to completely misrepresent God's love or those who have chosen to accept it.
I do not 'condemn you to hell' (nor would any other true believer. A true Christian deeply loves and cares about his fellow man). You (and most non-believers) totally misunderstand the reason that hell exists (we can leave the idea of what hell is for another discussion). God does not 'hate' a single non-believer. It is simply the fact that man has separated himself from God by choice. Mankind himself is condemning his eventual deliverance to hell because of HIS rejection of God, not God's rejection of man. God does not wish to lose a single soul, but because free choice is crucial to the value of God's love for us, it has to be based on free choice. As an example, if you have children, and they were forced to tell you they loved you, would that statement and any subsequent relationship with them have any value? No, it would not. The only true value in them telling you they love you is if it is done out of their free will. To force such a statement out of them would be the most hollow thing you could ever experience. It is no different with God's love towards us. For it to have any value we must have a choice. Free choice to love God, but also free choice to reject him.
I do not wish any of my fellow human beings to be delivered to 'hell', but that is not my choice, it is theirs. Ironically, it is not God's choice either. He felt that the choice of willingly loving him was worth giving us, as it defines the only real value of such love. In fact, it defines the purpose of our very existence. That is why your comments are so offensive. You grossly misrepresent the fact that believers understand that it is mankind that has gone wrong, not the entity that created us. God knew that only truth and justice can define our (and His) ultimate value. His creation can only have eternal value if it comes to him voluntarily. Without that we may as well be programmable robots. I would never want that from my children...why would God want it from his...?
There was a reason that God became man and came to live amongst his creation in the person of Jesus Christ. God loves us so much that He was willing to sacrifice his only Son (who was perfect and blameless and without sin) to provide a bridge between our worldly existence and the completely pure and different dimension that is the existence that God inhabits. What most people do not realise is that their souls are really the 'real' them, and our physical bodies are simply a vessel that we inhabit before we embark on our eternal existence.
You don't have to believe. God gives you that free choice. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that a free choice means an absence of choice. There is no middle ground. God paid for your life with the heaviest price possible, the cruel and unwarranted death of HIS only Son. He insists you make a choice. You will then have decided which side of history you stood. God imbued us with intelligence, conscience, responsibility and finally, eternal choice. God came to earth the first time to save mankind. The second time will be to judge. When the whole natural world starts to melt away suddenly, and you are left staring into the face of God himself, it will be too late then to make the choice. God has been giving mankind the benefit of his Love and patience for two thousand years. I suggest that that period of history is rapidly coming to a close. Make your choice Bob, but don't suggest that those of us who have chosen to love the living God have anything but compassion and love for you and every other of our fellow human beings. It is simply that I can't make the choice for you, and I will not allow you to completely misrepresent God's love or those who have chosen to accept it.
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Would all you religious zealots please actually find out what it means to be atheist before you put so many words in our mouths about our "beliefs".
Here - I 'll put it in one sentence for you - short enough so that even those among you who struggle with Part A might get this:
Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
We don't believe in any Gods - mostly cause nobody has ever seen one. End of story.
Secondly - isn't it really sad that the god you lot believe in is really the same god the crazy jihadist extreme muslims believe in??
And lastly - what really really puzzles me about modern christianity is that in your haste to grow your religion you have sold out to the point where a mass murderer can have a quick conversion on his death bed and go to heaven forever to hang out there with you and your mates and play harps - whereas I - who live a good and just life and do charitable work and have adopted two children from war torn countries etc etc - I will be damned forever cause I don't believe?
Here - I 'll put it in one sentence for you - short enough so that even those among you who struggle with Part A might get this:
Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
We don't believe in any Gods - mostly cause nobody has ever seen one. End of story.
Secondly - isn't it really sad that the god you lot believe in is really the same god the crazy jihadist extreme muslims believe in??
And lastly - what really really puzzles me about modern christianity is that in your haste to grow your religion you have sold out to the point where a mass murderer can have a quick conversion on his death bed and go to heaven forever to hang out there with you and your mates and play harps - whereas I - who live a good and just life and do charitable work and have adopted two children from war torn countries etc etc - I will be damned forever cause I don't believe?
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That's the sizzle Yokebearer, it's not our fault, but it is.
god loves us like family but he's going to make sure our tails are whipped when we don't reciprocate fairly tale love back. Oh, and BTW, did jesus suffer anymore or less than anyone else who was crucified by the romans, or tortured by religious zealots. I think not! Either way you look at it, it is despicable to make torture an object of pious adulation. WC you can't get away from the fact that heinous crimes were and still are being committed in your gods name and various other gods. Your waffle about blameless, sinless, is beyond reason (yes, I know, you struggle with that). Further, the waffle about original sin, what a complete utter piece of baloney. You can't substantiate that for one second, unless of course you take a leap of faith, and in doing so, you have acknowledged something without evidence. You will go on about it because I can't prove it, it doesn't necessarily mean it isn't so. Shiva Linga doesn't just mean it's a god penis, it takes a leap of faith to believe that and no doubt you faith wouldn't carry you that far. Mighty selective we Mr WC.
Have you ever done any comparative religious studies, have you ever lived and worked with other religious groups (visiting a mosque or a temple for ˝ hr doesn't count). Do you realise how conceited you sound, when the only supporting evidence you draw upon is the bible and nothing else.
You live in denial of the large tapestry of difference for humanity and in doing so you reveal yourself to be what you are, a narrow minded bigot.
Give god a chance, let him fade away gracefully, and bring common-sense and compassion into your life.
god loves us like family but he's going to make sure our tails are whipped when we don't reciprocate fairly tale love back. Oh, and BTW, did jesus suffer anymore or less than anyone else who was crucified by the romans, or tortured by religious zealots. I think not! Either way you look at it, it is despicable to make torture an object of pious adulation. WC you can't get away from the fact that heinous crimes were and still are being committed in your gods name and various other gods. Your waffle about blameless, sinless, is beyond reason (yes, I know, you struggle with that). Further, the waffle about original sin, what a complete utter piece of baloney. You can't substantiate that for one second, unless of course you take a leap of faith, and in doing so, you have acknowledged something without evidence. You will go on about it because I can't prove it, it doesn't necessarily mean it isn't so. Shiva Linga doesn't just mean it's a god penis, it takes a leap of faith to believe that and no doubt you faith wouldn't carry you that far. Mighty selective we Mr WC.
Have you ever done any comparative religious studies, have you ever lived and worked with other religious groups (visiting a mosque or a temple for ˝ hr doesn't count). Do you realise how conceited you sound, when the only supporting evidence you draw upon is the bible and nothing else.
You live in denial of the large tapestry of difference for humanity and in doing so you reveal yourself to be what you are, a narrow minded bigot.
Give god a chance, let him fade away gracefully, and bring common-sense and compassion into your life.
Join Date: May 2004
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There is no god or anything such as religion, I can prove it to you water check and all the other cult followers in this thread.
I wrote a diary and if you look at page 4, paragraph 2, you will see that it says:
"Religion and god is all made up fantasy by people with too many questions and not enough answers. You should live life to the fullest because you only get one shot at it."
So there, 4:2 says it all really. There is your proof that you are wrong, it is clearly written in "the Diary", so it is obviously proof that god and religion does not exist.
Argument solved.
PS: I can't believe that some of you are actually licensed to fly planes. There were no planes in your bibles, so shouldn't you consider them works of the devil? I bet you refuse trips on Sunday, just as your book requires you to. Oh, I forgot, you have the ability to pick and choose from this book as you see fit.
I wrote a diary and if you look at page 4, paragraph 2, you will see that it says:
"Religion and god is all made up fantasy by people with too many questions and not enough answers. You should live life to the fullest because you only get one shot at it."
So there, 4:2 says it all really. There is your proof that you are wrong, it is clearly written in "the Diary", so it is obviously proof that god and religion does not exist.
Argument solved.
PS: I can't believe that some of you are actually licensed to fly planes. There were no planes in your bibles, so shouldn't you consider them works of the devil? I bet you refuse trips on Sunday, just as your book requires you to. Oh, I forgot, you have the ability to pick and choose from this book as you see fit.
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...hmm, interesting. Several of you speak of me and other believers in a way that suggests we are full of hate and intolerance. All we have done is simply explain our understanding of, and belief in God. We aren't the one's calling you insulting names and using derogative terms...like you are towards us (who are the ones demonstrating 'hate' and 'intolerance'?). I would not expect you possess enough introspection to look in the mirror and see the obvious however. Your comments demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of God and his word. More importantly, your words show hearts hardened against God and his love for you. The sad reality is that you are so blinded by your supposed 'intellectual superiority' that you have lost the ability to humbly accept a power higher than yourselves. As I mentioned earlier, whether you wish to acknowledge God or not is the choice you were allowed, out of love. Your actions and words are a reflection of your hearts place in Gods universe. I know most of you won't give two seconds thought to such a thing...but the real tragedy is that this very thing is actually the very purpose of your life in the first place. We all possess similar levels of intelligence, education and upbringing. Perhaps you should ponder why similar beings to yourselves (not to mention many other notable citizens around the world) would sense and understand the very God you seem to wish to deny. Again, I don't imagine many of you will actually take the time to consider such a dichotomy. The main thing to consider is that none of you will be able to deny knowledge of Christ and his sacrifice, come the day you will be confronted with 'your' choice accordingly....
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There have been some great bible quotes from the nutters so far, I just thought I'd keep the ball rolling...
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock."
Psalms 137:9
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock."
Psalms 137:9
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Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.
Ezekiel 23:19-20
(I mean, seriously, WTF?!?)
Ezekiel 23:19-20
(I mean, seriously, WTF?!?)
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BTW, seems not every Nazi was a god-less heathen...
"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith, that he [Hitler] was sent to us by God to save Germany."
--Hermann Goering, from Louis L. Snyder, "Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen", Berkley Books, 1990
"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith, that he [Hitler] was sent to us by God to save Germany."
--Hermann Goering, from Louis L. Snyder, "Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen", Berkley Books, 1990