Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks
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69er,
Now you're even trying to split the tightly knitted CEP group into two or more. You HAVE NEVER EVER made ANY of ur arguments based on where the CEP was born and bred or family ties what-so-ever. I can tell you right here right now that I was born in HK but grew up overseas, never been back to HK since the move till the interview, and none of my immediate family ties is in HKG when I joined. So there, thanks for proving that you have been wrongly accusing me all along.
In case you've been out browsing in outter space, you were hired because "the company is having a difficult time recruiting locally". So now that they've fixed that problem, there's only one thing left for you to do really. GET LOST... 
but I am limiting my argument with cxchildlabor to those CEPs that have a very strong connection to Hong Kong, ie: born and bred, family ties, etc.
If the company is having a difficult time recruiting locally what other options do they have?? Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, if you don't want a distinction between expats and local CEPs, why should the CEP program be exclusive to locals from Hong Kong??
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69er, a quick reply to some of your reposts as dinner beckons though I think CxChildLabour answered one of them in a more deliberate fashion:
The recruitment pool....if there are not enough CEPs coming from HKG, do it the old fashioned way...hire DESO. It worked beautifully, though of course the company have changed course, in line with their future business plan.
The SLS deduction that I spoke of is with regards to take home pay, not basic salary. With the extra benefits that expats get, the SLS deduction caused a more severe cut to the total take home pay of the CEP vs. the expat. I think the AOA have the figures and I'm quite sure that I saw the 7% vs 3.5% somewhere in the papers, though I will grant that the papers do take liberties sometime. In any case, highlighting the deduction vs. total income was what I was getting at, and I promise you I didn't pull those figures out of thin air. Now just trying to remember where I saw them, anyone else feel free to post the real figures.
The recruitment pool....if there are not enough CEPs coming from HKG, do it the old fashioned way...hire DESO. It worked beautifully, though of course the company have changed course, in line with their future business plan.
The SLS deduction that I spoke of is with regards to take home pay, not basic salary. With the extra benefits that expats get, the SLS deduction caused a more severe cut to the total take home pay of the CEP vs. the expat. I think the AOA have the figures and I'm quite sure that I saw the 7% vs 3.5% somewhere in the papers, though I will grant that the papers do take liberties sometime. In any case, highlighting the deduction vs. total income was what I was getting at, and I promise you I didn't pull those figures out of thin air. Now just trying to remember where I saw them, anyone else feel free to post the real figures.
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- Living standard -
This is a polarizing debate...
On one side we have the CEPs fighting for an equal package, and on the other expat pilots who know too well that the management's answer to 'equal conditions' will be to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator.
In the trail of what Guru posted above, would it not be better for the CEPs to fight for an equal living standard, as targeting those 'expat benefits' entails a whole different debate that is certainly not as clear cut as the fact that they do the same job and receive less.
When verdict time comes in court (and it inevitably will), the judges will have no difficulty seeing the gap in living standard, whereas demanding a housing allowance which was never on the table when they signed might turn agaisnt them.
On one side we have the CEPs fighting for an equal package, and on the other expat pilots who know too well that the management's answer to 'equal conditions' will be to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator.
In the trail of what Guru posted above, would it not be better for the CEPs to fight for an equal living standard, as targeting those 'expat benefits' entails a whole different debate that is certainly not as clear cut as the fact that they do the same job and receive less.
When verdict time comes in court (and it inevitably will), the judges will have no difficulty seeing the gap in living standard, whereas demanding a housing allowance which was never on the table when they signed might turn agaisnt them.
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So are you suggesting that all expats are getting housing allowance just because they HAD UNWILLINGLY stay in HKG??? In that case may I suggest that those who are WILLING to be relocated back home at short notice may get the allowance while in HKG, as for those who CHOOSES to stay in HKG don't? Cause I don't really see any sacrifices made in the latter case as they're here BY CHOICE.
And next time if you wanna make your argument valid, please get your facts straight. You're completely ignoring the fact (which the AOA confirmed with the media as well) that there are CEP's who were hired on DIRECT ENTRY TERMS yet were put on LOCAL TERMS once the company found out they own a HK ID card.
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69er, forgot to add:
That point that you made:
Quote:
the global CEP program, no guarantee of slots for the local hongers anymore, which is what it was originally designed for as kids here have zero opportunity to mow lawns while working their way through flight school
"If the company is having a difficult time recruiting locally what other options do they have?? Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, if you don't want a distinction between expats and local CEPs, why should the CEP program be exclusive to locals from Hong Kong??"
That last little bit is almost the point, the CEP program is indeed no longer exclusive to the HKG community, therefore the gap of distinction between expats and locals has become blurred even further. Should the T&Cs not start to reflect that?
Just to be clear, and this is an honest question, am I correct in saying that via the definition of housing, you do not agree that CEPs should have dibs, but given any other name, it is acceptable? So this is a matter based upon definition?
As for the guys who were offered local or nothing, I personally know of one who is no longer with us and is now working for another outfit in HKG (actually he was given expat, these terms were later revoked shortly after he joined) and interestingly enough, another individual who posted on page 3 of this thread, post # 55.
Ex Cathedra
Good point, and yes it is the living standard that we would like to see planed out. Time will tell how to take the direction of the argument.
That point that you made:
Quote:
the global CEP program, no guarantee of slots for the local hongers anymore, which is what it was originally designed for as kids here have zero opportunity to mow lawns while working their way through flight school
"If the company is having a difficult time recruiting locally what other options do they have?? Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, if you don't want a distinction between expats and local CEPs, why should the CEP program be exclusive to locals from Hong Kong??"
That last little bit is almost the point, the CEP program is indeed no longer exclusive to the HKG community, therefore the gap of distinction between expats and locals has become blurred even further. Should the T&Cs not start to reflect that?
Just to be clear, and this is an honest question, am I correct in saying that via the definition of housing, you do not agree that CEPs should have dibs, but given any other name, it is acceptable? So this is a matter based upon definition?
As for the guys who were offered local or nothing, I personally know of one who is no longer with us and is now working for another outfit in HKG (actually he was given expat, these terms were later revoked shortly after he joined) and interestingly enough, another individual who posted on page 3 of this thread, post # 55.
Ex Cathedra
Good point, and yes it is the living standard that we would like to see planed out. Time will tell how to take the direction of the argument.
Last edited by Mullah Lite; 12th Feb 2010 at 10:43.
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Mullah Lite,
I thought I and others were clear with the above question. Do not fixate on the housing allowance because you are essentially indirectly attacking it. If you choose to fight for a higher salary or other benefits to compensate for the gap then by all means, go for it. As I said in the beginning the locals at Emirates get paid a higher salary than the expats, let the same happen here!
Just to be clear, and this is an honest question, am I correct in saying that via the definition of housing, you do not agree that CEPs should have dibs, but given any other name, it is acceptable? So this is a matter based upon definition?
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69er, nope sorry didn't see through the looking glass but I got your point now.
if the Emirates way results in the same take home pay in the end, then I'm sure the CEPs would be all for it, but personally I think it has to be done in a way that cannot be misconstrued...i.e. if our basic pay goes up, then surely the expats and based guys should be entitled to the same as basic pay is across the board....this I absolutely believe and think it would be a fatal mistake to touch the basic payscales, it would only cause more trouble than there already is.
Not meant to be an insult but it appears to me then that there is a fear quotient involved, that you are concerned that the company will use it as an excuse to attack the foundations of the housing agreement for the expats, based on the definition of the term of the allowance?
I can understand your concern about having the housing allowance undermined, but the CEP point has always been about closing the gap, however the allowance is defined. But I fall back on my own mindset when I say that I believe we are talking semantics, housing allowance/special allowance/local assistance, so that's where I think you and I have a different perspective on the applicability of the terminology. Not necessarily curable, this difference, but may I suggest that if it is of enough concern, let the AOA know about it, because the last thing the CEPs want to do is antagonise the expat community.
if the Emirates way results in the same take home pay in the end, then I'm sure the CEPs would be all for it, but personally I think it has to be done in a way that cannot be misconstrued...i.e. if our basic pay goes up, then surely the expats and based guys should be entitled to the same as basic pay is across the board....this I absolutely believe and think it would be a fatal mistake to touch the basic payscales, it would only cause more trouble than there already is.
Not meant to be an insult but it appears to me then that there is a fear quotient involved, that you are concerned that the company will use it as an excuse to attack the foundations of the housing agreement for the expats, based on the definition of the term of the allowance?
I can understand your concern about having the housing allowance undermined, but the CEP point has always been about closing the gap, however the allowance is defined. But I fall back on my own mindset when I say that I believe we are talking semantics, housing allowance/special allowance/local assistance, so that's where I think you and I have a different perspective on the applicability of the terminology. Not necessarily curable, this difference, but may I suggest that if it is of enough concern, let the AOA know about it, because the last thing the CEPs want to do is antagonise the expat community.
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69er,
You talking about yourself? Who's the one here that gets handed a "set-for-life" financial deal? When the prices of real estate rise at a ridiculous pace, who's the one here that could sit back, relax, and enjoy the cathay "I take care of you no worries" service? Who's the one that has to scrape a few extra cents here and there to pay for the inflated rent? All these talk about "you paid your dues elsewhere and it's time for me to rake it in", how about the dues the CEP's are paying their whole career?
It's absolutely amazing how you got this job with your incapability to look at the big picture every single time. Always try to attack small groups here and there but never brave enough to attack as a whole. Nah, it's ok to discrminate a few with this, a few with that, a couple here, couple there, they won't realize it. So far you have failed to justify how a CEP should suffer for his/her whole career just because they were trained by the company. Failed to justify how some would be considered local and others not even when they were hired on the same term and background. Failed to justify your point about a "local CEP" shouldn't get certain entitlment. And flat out avoided to talk about others who ALSO took the backdoor or jumped the queue and still enjoy the benefits. I sure hope your housing allowance is making you feel more superior cause I don't really see how you could achieve the same feeling anywhere else.
but of course if things weren't handed to you on a silver platter you would understand that
So enlighten me, how many exactly are in the above scenario, give me exact numbers before you mouth off!!!! So you take a few discriminatory examples and justify expat benefits to the whole lot......really put some time under your belt first before you become credible, but for now piss off!
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Who's the one that has to scrape a few extra cents here and there to pay for the inflated rent? All these talk about "you paid your dues elsewhere and it's time for me to rake it in", how about the dues the CEP's are paying their whole career?
You speak of injustices, but no mention of your fellow Canadians that were never given the same opportunity (until now) as you were just because of a lousy HK ID card....oh I forgot for now you've conveniently put away your Canadian passport
I
t's absolutely amazing how you got this job with your incapability to look at the big picture every single time.
I sure hope your housing allowance is making you feel more superior cause I don't really see how you could achieve the same feeling anywhere else.
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Possible solution...
Gentlemen
May I suggest a possible solution to this present impasse? Why don't those of you who feel REALLY strongly about this topic PM each other, agree on a suitable meeting place and then proceed to knock seven shades of sh*t out of each other?
You'll be able to recognize each other at the venue by wearing bandannas that say "Narrow-minded CEP" or "Narrow-minded Expat". When you've finished, NR and co will be there to pick up the pieces.
Embarrassing.
STP
May I suggest a possible solution to this present impasse? Why don't those of you who feel REALLY strongly about this topic PM each other, agree on a suitable meeting place and then proceed to knock seven shades of sh*t out of each other?
You'll be able to recognize each other at the venue by wearing bandannas that say "Narrow-minded CEP" or "Narrow-minded Expat". When you've finished, NR and co will be there to pick up the pieces.
Embarrassing.
STP
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To all those who oppose LEPs receiving housing...
To all those who oppose LEPs receiving expat benefits after a set amount of time (ie 5 years, 10 years etc - something that pays back their training costs, offsets their extended time at higher pay increments, etc), consider this:
The international cadet program is already in full swing. The current B scale (expat) pilots are rapidly becoming the new A scale pilots. And we all have seen the steady decline of the old A Scale package.
We would be foolish not fight for a common pay scale (as in total remuneration costs ie. housing+education+salary) for the entire pilot group. History has already shown that lower pay scales are rarely, if ever, brought up to the higher pay scale. Rather, it is usually the higher pay scale that is brought down to the lower pay scale.
Food for thought...
The international cadet program is already in full swing. The current B scale (expat) pilots are rapidly becoming the new A scale pilots. And we all have seen the steady decline of the old A Scale package.
We would be foolish not fight for a common pay scale (as in total remuneration costs ie. housing+education+salary) for the entire pilot group. History has already shown that lower pay scales are rarely, if ever, brought up to the higher pay scale. Rather, it is usually the higher pay scale that is brought down to the lower pay scale.
Food for thought...
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Local or expat, it doesn't really matter.
What does matter is what our licence is worth in the market.
By the company's own admission, the market rate for a licenced and type rated operator is salary + housing + benefits. Though really it's all just money. No argument is going to convince me that expatriates have a unique entitlement to these emoluments. Once you've done the hard graft and QL you are an airline pilot, notwithstanding flying F15's, bug-smashers out of Woolongong or even a 250hr cadet.
Simply put, locals are being paid less than 50% what they ought.
What does matter is what our licence is worth in the market.
By the company's own admission, the market rate for a licenced and type rated operator is salary + housing + benefits. Though really it's all just money. No argument is going to convince me that expatriates have a unique entitlement to these emoluments. Once you've done the hard graft and QL you are an airline pilot, notwithstanding flying F15's, bug-smashers out of Woolongong or even a 250hr cadet.
Simply put, locals are being paid less than 50% what they ought.
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From Wikipedia: "An expatriate (in abbreviated form, expat) is a person temporarily or permanently residing in a country and culture other than that of the person's upbringing or legal residence."
So from the above, should a former cadet, Chinese and Western (there are plenty of 鬼佬 cadets), who was brought up, and has legal residence, in another country, be considered an expat?
I think we should move away from the argument of "I did my time working in YXXX or CXXX, flying pieces of sh!t through the night, and thus I deserve housing. When I was 24 I was paying 30% of my pay on shared accommodation, asking "You want fries with that?", just so I could afford to buy expired pasta and put fuel in the car. Whereas you joined straight from kindergarten, with no experience, had everything paid for, blah blah". Housing is NOT payment in return for years of hard earned hours. It is an allowance for those not living in their HOME country. Think of it like an overnight allowance.
Now should those cadets, come instructors, be able to move to HKG on full housing, with a higher seniority than the guy/girl sitting next to them on ground school? Probably not, especially if they too have a HKID. Just like that guy who was employed as a DESO, but later forced onto local conditions.
Should a DEFO employed on a base be able to move to HKG and receive full housing after a few years? No I don't think so. They choose to relocate, while working for the same company, to HKG. Whereas the majority had no choice. If they wanted to work for CX, they had to move to HKG. Using this logic, a LEP could choose to relocate to YSSY and expect housing.
What we ALL should be asking for is a base pay increase to keep pace with the cost of things. Not asking for allowances that we are, lets be honest, not entitled to.
PS As for the question of when does an expat become a local? Lets ask NR how long he expects to receive housing?
So from the above, should a former cadet, Chinese and Western (there are plenty of 鬼佬 cadets), who was brought up, and has legal residence, in another country, be considered an expat?
I think we should move away from the argument of "I did my time working in YXXX or CXXX, flying pieces of sh!t through the night, and thus I deserve housing. When I was 24 I was paying 30% of my pay on shared accommodation, asking "You want fries with that?", just so I could afford to buy expired pasta and put fuel in the car. Whereas you joined straight from kindergarten, with no experience, had everything paid for, blah blah". Housing is NOT payment in return for years of hard earned hours. It is an allowance for those not living in their HOME country. Think of it like an overnight allowance.
Now should those cadets, come instructors, be able to move to HKG on full housing, with a higher seniority than the guy/girl sitting next to them on ground school? Probably not, especially if they too have a HKID. Just like that guy who was employed as a DESO, but later forced onto local conditions.
Should a DEFO employed on a base be able to move to HKG and receive full housing after a few years? No I don't think so. They choose to relocate, while working for the same company, to HKG. Whereas the majority had no choice. If they wanted to work for CX, they had to move to HKG. Using this logic, a LEP could choose to relocate to YSSY and expect housing.
What we ALL should be asking for is a base pay increase to keep pace with the cost of things. Not asking for allowances that we are, lets be honest, not entitled to.
PS As for the question of when does an expat become a local? Lets ask NR how long he expects to receive housing?
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If the company is having a difficult time recruiting locally what other options do they have??
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Pardon the thread drift, but when geh65 said
As A scalers, we couldn't believe 'you people' would actually come and sign up for the job on B scales knowing everyone just ahead of you was on A scale
However , when you said
I couldn't help but agree.
The carrying on by certain individuals on this thread does our profession no good at all. It makes us look petty, selfish and immature - unbecoming of our occupations.
For what it's worth, I reckon the LEP's are on a hiding to nothing by pushing for the housing aspect, but I would support their achieving a compensatory pay 'addition' after an agreed apprenticeship type period.
Yes they mainly came to the party with nothing, were taught effectively for free, and contributed little for a number of years. In comparison, the older and often type rated expat bought much to the party in hours and normally significant varied experience. I'm sure the company would like it better if pilots were not needed. as we are a somewhat troublesome and hard to manage group, so they dislike us all intensely, both LEP's and expats.
However, is it right that the LEP's are kept in aviation servitude for the whole of their career, most expat posters seem to agree this is unfair.
But for the LEP's to go for the housing aspect is losing sight of the big picture, I would respectfully suggest a different plan of attack if you are really hoping to better your contract. By pursuing the housing, I feel you are doing nothing more than playing into the companies hands, and they are past masters at the divide and conquer game.
As B scalers we often have little good to say about the way A scalers allowed the B scale to happen under their noses
However , when you said
Honestly is it any surprise the public have such little sympathy for us?
The carrying on by certain individuals on this thread does our profession no good at all. It makes us look petty, selfish and immature - unbecoming of our occupations.
For what it's worth, I reckon the LEP's are on a hiding to nothing by pushing for the housing aspect, but I would support their achieving a compensatory pay 'addition' after an agreed apprenticeship type period.
Yes they mainly came to the party with nothing, were taught effectively for free, and contributed little for a number of years. In comparison, the older and often type rated expat bought much to the party in hours and normally significant varied experience. I'm sure the company would like it better if pilots were not needed. as we are a somewhat troublesome and hard to manage group, so they dislike us all intensely, both LEP's and expats.
However, is it right that the LEP's are kept in aviation servitude for the whole of their career, most expat posters seem to agree this is unfair.
But for the LEP's to go for the housing aspect is losing sight of the big picture, I would respectfully suggest a different plan of attack if you are really hoping to better your contract. By pursuing the housing, I feel you are doing nothing more than playing into the companies hands, and they are past masters at the divide and conquer game.