Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ali:
Yes as mentioned before that issue of housing on basing has come up and what the CEPs have been arguing for is same package on base (mentioned before), i.e. wherever it is you live, you will get as much as the next guy who is your next door neighbour. As others have mentioned, it is always the option for those on overseas basings to come back to hong kong, but such an opportunity does not exist for local guys anywhere on the network, no matter where they go. Again, even for DEFOs, (arguably also locals having been hired for that exact purpose, to stay where they were hired!) have the option of a HKG basing after 4 years service. So CPEs believe there is a clear disparity in ultimate career opportunity there. Anyways, just a couple of reasons why.
geh 065, thank you for your reasonable comments.
iLuvPX.....was that your trailer I saw parked outside the City this morning? Just wanted to let you know that swastika bumper sticker of yours was peeling, you might want a new one.
Yes as mentioned before that issue of housing on basing has come up and what the CEPs have been arguing for is same package on base (mentioned before), i.e. wherever it is you live, you will get as much as the next guy who is your next door neighbour. As others have mentioned, it is always the option for those on overseas basings to come back to hong kong, but such an opportunity does not exist for local guys anywhere on the network, no matter where they go. Again, even for DEFOs, (arguably also locals having been hired for that exact purpose, to stay where they were hired!) have the option of a HKG basing after 4 years service. So CPEs believe there is a clear disparity in ultimate career opportunity there. Anyways, just a couple of reasons why.
geh 065, thank you for your reasonable comments.
iLuvPX.....was that your trailer I saw parked outside the City this morning? Just wanted to let you know that swastika bumper sticker of yours was peeling, you might want a new one.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Do any other local staff in CX or swire (management?) receive housing? If so, housing should be paid to the CEPs"
Yes senior local management do, and yes, CEPs Captains get the same housing payments as senior local staff. This is obviously though much lower than the expat captains get.
Yes senior local management do, and yes, CEPs Captains get the same housing payments as senior local staff. This is obviously though much lower than the expat captains get.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The whole "you are from HKG and shouldn't get housing allowance" is a little dated I would suggest.
That may have been the case when the cadet courses started as you had to have a permanent HKID card. The bar was shifted to those with Resident HKID cards meaning that we attracted a large bunch of Canadian/English/Aus cadets a large number of whom had never lived in Hong Kong (expats?). In true CX spirit the bar has shifted again - now you don't need any connection to HKG to join the cadet course! What is the argument for these guys not getting housing?
I too did my hard yards and joined as a DESO. I believe that Cadets should pay an apprenticeship for having their licenses paid for and arriving with little or no experience but that apprenticeship shouldn't last their entire careers.
Maybe call this a CEP allowance instead of housing. Would that make those worried about their own housing happier? I'm all for raising the standard of remuneration for a small group within our ranks. It can only bode well for the rest of us in the long run. CX's scare tactics, of we have a pot this large and everything must come out of it, is exactly that - scare tactics. They have much more in there pot than they ever imagined because they have suppressed our package for so long.
Come on guys - a group of our fellow pilots is asking for support and all they are getting is abuse. It's time to start looking at constructive ideas here instead of the childish bashing that goes on.
All those "old fellas" that were screaming discrimination just months ago should be putting their weight behind these guys too. You blokes should know firsthand what it feels like to be alienated as a minority group - get out there and support these guys by offering constructive ideas rather than "cannot."
That may have been the case when the cadet courses started as you had to have a permanent HKID card. The bar was shifted to those with Resident HKID cards meaning that we attracted a large bunch of Canadian/English/Aus cadets a large number of whom had never lived in Hong Kong (expats?). In true CX spirit the bar has shifted again - now you don't need any connection to HKG to join the cadet course! What is the argument for these guys not getting housing?
I too did my hard yards and joined as a DESO. I believe that Cadets should pay an apprenticeship for having their licenses paid for and arriving with little or no experience but that apprenticeship shouldn't last their entire careers.
Maybe call this a CEP allowance instead of housing. Would that make those worried about their own housing happier? I'm all for raising the standard of remuneration for a small group within our ranks. It can only bode well for the rest of us in the long run. CX's scare tactics, of we have a pot this large and everything must come out of it, is exactly that - scare tactics. They have much more in there pot than they ever imagined because they have suppressed our package for so long.
Come on guys - a group of our fellow pilots is asking for support and all they are getting is abuse. It's time to start looking at constructive ideas here instead of the childish bashing that goes on.
All those "old fellas" that were screaming discrimination just months ago should be putting their weight behind these guys too. You blokes should know firsthand what it feels like to be alienated as a minority group - get out there and support these guys by offering constructive ideas rather than "cannot."
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
various cxchildlabor posts from last year,
Let me get this straight, you are still a wet behind the ear JFO CEP from Canada and were making a stink about the expat housing allowance as early as when you were an S/O
So staying in Canada to pay for your very expensive licenses, and then trying for years to get a decent flying job, all while you are earning below poverty, and having to travel across the country to where the jobs are didn't appeal to you because of the cost, hardship, time, etc. Instead you take advantage of your Hong Kong connection and apply for the cadet scheme knowing full well the conditions you are joining under. Once here you all of a sudden think it is your god given right to be entitled to the housing allowance.
Two words for you...GET LOST
For an easy solution, we should put all expats into apartments out in Gold Coast just like our expat cabin crew. I believe that's a perfect fit for the lifestyle they're used to, with a yacht club, open seaview, and far away from town. They can all whine about not being able to support the numerous cars, boats, planes, wives, gf's, bf's, or whatever they're into in that little clubhouse there.
Have you ever flown with any RP/RQ DEFO who simply has no clue what he's doing? I did, felt like a training SO.
It's unfortunate but even for myself months away from my upgrade, I can't say for sure if there'd even be a slot available when my turn comes, or even for years to come...
Hi guys, looking to convert my HKCAD CPL/ATPL into a Transport Canada one... Would any of you have done it before or got any details about it??? Greatly appreciated...
Let me get this straight, you are still a wet behind the ear JFO CEP from Canada and were making a stink about the expat housing allowance as early as when you were an S/O
So staying in Canada to pay for your very expensive licenses, and then trying for years to get a decent flying job, all while you are earning below poverty, and having to travel across the country to where the jobs are didn't appeal to you because of the cost, hardship, time, etc. Instead you take advantage of your Hong Kong connection and apply for the cadet scheme knowing full well the conditions you are joining under. Once here you all of a sudden think it is your god given right to be entitled to the housing allowance.
Two words for you...GET LOST
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To all CEP's: Your mistake is defining your shortfall in income under the banner of 'housing allowance'. For a whole host of reasons, the logic of that will fall flat. If you want an increase in pay (which ALL of us support, for everyone including CEP's), then you should be agitating for an increase in salary, or perhaps a 'cost of living' adjustment of some sort. Don't make the mistake of thinking we don't support you, we do. It's just that the basis of your arguement will lead nowhere. Change the context of your dispute with the company to something that cannot be destroyed with a logical repost. We have all been 'dumbed' down in respect of pay and benefits, and we all deserve that being addressed.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: MARS
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Before joining ANY company, you have a look at what's on offer, and you either accept the contract as is or say "thanks, but no thanks" and find something else, plain and simple.
Apparently there are some legal issues regarding the signing of training bonds in Hong Kong, but if that could be overcome, I wonder how many LEP's would THEN be prepared to sign up and pay off 1.5-2 million HKD$, whilst receiving housing allowances?
Then again, why TRAIN and employ LEP's AT ALL, as there are so many DEFO's available out there...food for thought
Apparently there are some legal issues regarding the signing of training bonds in Hong Kong, but if that could be overcome, I wonder how many LEP's would THEN be prepared to sign up and pay off 1.5-2 million HKD$, whilst receiving housing allowances?
Then again, why TRAIN and employ LEP's AT ALL, as there are so many DEFO's available out there...food for thought
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's another thought:
Most people I come across mutter things about having no pay increments added to basic pay to combat the inflation that happens year after year. If we are talking about knowing what we signed up for, I don't think there is anything in our contracts, 99 or 08 that states 'the payscale will be amended from time to time to reflect the percentage rise in inflation' unlike other things that are 'amended from time to time' at the company's discretion. As I see it in the contract, the payscales are fixed integers that do not change until a new contract is rolled out, but that isn't stopping anyone from thinking about the next step. I understand that the inflation has not come to a point where living standards are compromised and as such there has not been a push to have the payscales rearranged, but if it were, it would still constitute an effort to change contracts that we have already signed up for. So in essence, what is going on with the CEPs is much on the same lines. I personally don't believe that using semantics or synonyms makes any difference in this argument, housing, special allowance, call it what you want, but it's about bringing the CEP living standard and take home to be the same as the next guy. Thought processes on the subject may suffer fatal incompatabilities between different members on this forum but in the long run, why is it such an issue for some to see their colleagues make a push to make things better for themselves? What does that say about their character? Is it about making people toil and dreg through exactly what they had to go through to get to where they are, or should it be more about being able to do what they do, to be at the same standard? What is the ultimate goal for keeping the brother man down?
Most people I come across mutter things about having no pay increments added to basic pay to combat the inflation that happens year after year. If we are talking about knowing what we signed up for, I don't think there is anything in our contracts, 99 or 08 that states 'the payscale will be amended from time to time to reflect the percentage rise in inflation' unlike other things that are 'amended from time to time' at the company's discretion. As I see it in the contract, the payscales are fixed integers that do not change until a new contract is rolled out, but that isn't stopping anyone from thinking about the next step. I understand that the inflation has not come to a point where living standards are compromised and as such there has not been a push to have the payscales rearranged, but if it were, it would still constitute an effort to change contracts that we have already signed up for. So in essence, what is going on with the CEPs is much on the same lines. I personally don't believe that using semantics or synonyms makes any difference in this argument, housing, special allowance, call it what you want, but it's about bringing the CEP living standard and take home to be the same as the next guy. Thought processes on the subject may suffer fatal incompatabilities between different members on this forum but in the long run, why is it such an issue for some to see their colleagues make a push to make things better for themselves? What does that say about their character? Is it about making people toil and dreg through exactly what they had to go through to get to where they are, or should it be more about being able to do what they do, to be at the same standard? What is the ultimate goal for keeping the brother man down?
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ad Posse
That's the whole point though, what you said can basically translate into serving the first several years with basic pay only, forfeit any allowance to pay back the training costs with respect to company profitability (although that in itself could interpreted). Some of us did the maths, don't quote me on this though, and figured that it would take about 5 years (conservatively) to recoup the training costs in its entirety, if not less depending on time of upgrade. I really should find some hard numbers to post but it's just a ballpark figure. Given that some guys have the potential to serve 30 + years, that's a lot of make up time left over to have without receiving anything to make up with, no?
As for DEFOs, it actually says in my contract in black and white, that FOs will not be hired directly onto a base. So the company unilaterally changes the contract for '08 which now allows it. Surely if the company is at leisure to change contracts in their entirety which affects the existing workforce, then the employees are allowed some latitude to discuss changes to theirs as well to make up for any adverse effects? Doesn't seem unreasonable.
Trying to fight the system, not each other.
That's the whole point though, what you said can basically translate into serving the first several years with basic pay only, forfeit any allowance to pay back the training costs with respect to company profitability (although that in itself could interpreted). Some of us did the maths, don't quote me on this though, and figured that it would take about 5 years (conservatively) to recoup the training costs in its entirety, if not less depending on time of upgrade. I really should find some hard numbers to post but it's just a ballpark figure. Given that some guys have the potential to serve 30 + years, that's a lot of make up time left over to have without receiving anything to make up with, no?
As for DEFOs, it actually says in my contract in black and white, that FOs will not be hired directly onto a base. So the company unilaterally changes the contract for '08 which now allows it. Surely if the company is at leisure to change contracts in their entirety which affects the existing workforce, then the employees are allowed some latitude to discuss changes to theirs as well to make up for any adverse effects? Doesn't seem unreasonable.
Trying to fight the system, not each other.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: VHHH
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think a lot of opinions are not focusing on the real underlying issue but instead on what we should call it.
LEPs and those expats in support of LEPs striving for better conditions, but oppose to LEPs receiving a 'housing allowance', are essentially in favour of the same thing: to narrow the gap in money earned over a 20-30 year career. It just so happens that the difference in the amount we earn IS the housing allowance expats receive. If the company agrees to pay LEPs an amount of money which would fully or partially narrow this gap but on the condition that it must be called something other than a 'housing allowance', I'm quite certain no LEPs would object to it. We are not demanding to be treated as 'expats', we just think the company should not pay us so much less than some other employee who is making the same amount of contribution throughout our careers.
I think it is exactly the company's strategy to tie up all arguments to the term 'housing allowance'. Instead of addressing the issue of whether a 70% gap (60%, 80%, whatever) in money earned over 30 years is equitable or not, the company as well as colleagues wishing to maintain this disparity simplistically brand this difference the cost the company needs to pay in order to attract expats.
To my colleagues who argue that the housing allowance should just be for HK based expats and seem even to be offended by the LEPs' quest for better pay, the question I would like to put to you is: Is it the amount of money the company pays you which persuades you to continue working here, or is it the knowledge that you are paid a certain amount more than LEPs which convinces you that you are paid what you are worth?
LEPs and those expats in support of LEPs striving for better conditions, but oppose to LEPs receiving a 'housing allowance', are essentially in favour of the same thing: to narrow the gap in money earned over a 20-30 year career. It just so happens that the difference in the amount we earn IS the housing allowance expats receive. If the company agrees to pay LEPs an amount of money which would fully or partially narrow this gap but on the condition that it must be called something other than a 'housing allowance', I'm quite certain no LEPs would object to it. We are not demanding to be treated as 'expats', we just think the company should not pay us so much less than some other employee who is making the same amount of contribution throughout our careers.
I think it is exactly the company's strategy to tie up all arguments to the term 'housing allowance'. Instead of addressing the issue of whether a 70% gap (60%, 80%, whatever) in money earned over 30 years is equitable or not, the company as well as colleagues wishing to maintain this disparity simplistically brand this difference the cost the company needs to pay in order to attract expats.
To my colleagues who argue that the housing allowance should just be for HK based expats and seem even to be offended by the LEPs' quest for better pay, the question I would like to put to you is: Is it the amount of money the company pays you which persuades you to continue working here, or is it the knowledge that you are paid a certain amount more than LEPs which convinces you that you are paid what you are worth?
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Nuclear Dust City
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
69er,
Thanks for your effort in researching into my background. It seems that you have a little problem looking into the big picture of my posts. All along I've been saying that the CEP's acknowledge there should be a payback period for the company to recover its cost. Is that really "ALL OF A SUDDEN NOW IT IS YOUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BE ENTITLED TO THE HOUSING ALLOWANCE"? How long would you consider as "ALL OF A SUDDEN"? Your whole career? How about ALL OF A SUDDEN you want your upgrade? ALL OF A SUDDEN you want your bypass? ALL OF A SUDDEN you want RA65? ALL OF A SUDDEN you want a payrise? ALL OF A SUDDEN you think your housing allowance should go with inflation? Make it full housing by the time CEP's make captains or 20 years in the company, whatever, at least there should be a set point where it's all equal and their effort and experience should be recognized. If you can give hard prove how our CEP CN or even STC's are simply not as worthy as the next person on the same grade, be my guess and I'll bow down to you.
For sure I ain't simply fighting for myself, unlike some selfish people here trying to cut other peers' throat to protect their very own interest. Whether this whole thing benefits me or not is still up in the air, but I can tell you it's very highly unlikely as I've said already that HKG isn't in my long term plan, I probably should try to fight for housing for the base guys if anything. Not everyone in this forum speak ONLY for themselves, there's a much greater interest out there for all of your counterparts' condition to be improved. Just think about it, if the local terms improve, what is the lowest the company could go if eventually NR does say expats do become a local after so many years? CEP's are not fighting for their interest to degrade others' life, and sure as hell we wouldn't be jumping up and down trying to prevent the others improve/protect their own when the time comes.
Thanks for your effort in researching into my background. It seems that you have a little problem looking into the big picture of my posts. All along I've been saying that the CEP's acknowledge there should be a payback period for the company to recover its cost. Is that really "ALL OF A SUDDEN NOW IT IS YOUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BE ENTITLED TO THE HOUSING ALLOWANCE"? How long would you consider as "ALL OF A SUDDEN"? Your whole career? How about ALL OF A SUDDEN you want your upgrade? ALL OF A SUDDEN you want your bypass? ALL OF A SUDDEN you want RA65? ALL OF A SUDDEN you want a payrise? ALL OF A SUDDEN you think your housing allowance should go with inflation? Make it full housing by the time CEP's make captains or 20 years in the company, whatever, at least there should be a set point where it's all equal and their effort and experience should be recognized. If you can give hard prove how our CEP CN or even STC's are simply not as worthy as the next person on the same grade, be my guess and I'll bow down to you.
For sure I ain't simply fighting for myself, unlike some selfish people here trying to cut other peers' throat to protect their very own interest. Whether this whole thing benefits me or not is still up in the air, but I can tell you it's very highly unlikely as I've said already that HKG isn't in my long term plan, I probably should try to fight for housing for the base guys if anything. Not everyone in this forum speak ONLY for themselves, there's a much greater interest out there for all of your counterparts' condition to be improved. Just think about it, if the local terms improve, what is the lowest the company could go if eventually NR does say expats do become a local after so many years? CEP's are not fighting for their interest to degrade others' life, and sure as hell we wouldn't be jumping up and down trying to prevent the others improve/protect their own when the time comes.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 672
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It should be noted of course that in our very own government in Hong Kong, senior civil servants receive housing allowance, regardless of whether they are expats or local, regardless of whether they joined the government with previous experience or started low and worked their way up. Arguing against the CEPs receiving housing is basically arguing against the government housing policy and also that of many large companies in Hong Kong.
Do other expats here have a problem with the local captains receiving $24,000 a month? I certainly don't, I have never heard of anyone complaining against it. The way everyone is bleating on perhaps argues that all local level D staff should not even be in receipt of the $24,000. So either you agree with the reasoning or you do not. You cannot have it both ways and call it what you want, housing, 'Special Allowance' etc... If no-one is against the logic of the $24,000 special allowance then how about a special allowance that matches the housing that expats get? If you are against it, then lets talk about who is jealous of who.
Do other expats here have a problem with the local captains receiving $24,000 a month? I certainly don't, I have never heard of anyone complaining against it. The way everyone is bleating on perhaps argues that all local level D staff should not even be in receipt of the $24,000. So either you agree with the reasoning or you do not. You cannot have it both ways and call it what you want, housing, 'Special Allowance' etc... If no-one is against the logic of the $24,000 special allowance then how about a special allowance that matches the housing that expats get? If you are against it, then lets talk about who is jealous of who.
Last edited by geh065; 12th Feb 2010 at 07:33.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My turn for devil's advocate
Expat = someone who is not a HKG permanent resident
Does this line of logic not then set a dangerous precedent for allowing the company to pursue what has been threatened over the last few years? I'm guessing that a very decent percentage of the expat...or should I say overseas hired....pilot body have a permanent HKID card. I for one most Certainly (note the capital) do not want to see a diminshing of their T&Cs because of that distinction.
Expat = someone who is not a HKG permanent resident
Does this line of logic not then set a dangerous precedent for allowing the company to pursue what has been threatened over the last few years? I'm guessing that a very decent percentage of the expat...or should I say overseas hired....pilot body have a permanent HKID card. I for one most Certainly (note the capital) do not want to see a diminshing of their T&Cs because of that distinction.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
at least there should be a set point where it's all equal and their effort and experience should be recognized. If you can give hard prove how our CEP CN or even STC's are simply not as worthy as the next person on the same grade, be my guess and I'll bow down to you.
If you are suggesting that eventually there should be no distinction between an 'expat' and a 'local' then why was there a push in the past 20 years to hire 'local talent'??? The cadet program really should have been open to anyone and everyone right from the start, and with the bigger pool of applications how many less 'locals' would have bee hired???
It is fine and dandy to use discrimination to argue your point, but you don't seem to have a problem with the fact that you as a Chinese Canadian were able to get employment at Cathay compared to many non Chinese Canadians that would have jumped at the opportunity to be a CEP (albeit now it is different), well isn't that a form of discrimination?? You can whip out you HK ID card when it suits you and mock the expat community here in HKG, but you sure are just as quick to whip out your Canadian passport too!
Last edited by Dragon69; 12th Feb 2010 at 08:42.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: HK
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Antagonizing title?
The person who started this thread, are you a company man by any chance?
Your title has indeed caused a lot of emotions.
Why wasn't it entitled local pilots after an improvement in conditions?
I've asked a local pilot and they are not asking for pay and perks to the extent of an expat, just an improvement to their own conditions, that NR has already promised to them..at a later date, supposedly.
I guess if you wanted an argument, then you've got one, but pretty sad that you've got to alienate your fellow pilots to go and do so.
Your title has indeed caused a lot of emotions.
Why wasn't it entitled local pilots after an improvement in conditions?
I've asked a local pilot and they are not asking for pay and perks to the extent of an expat, just an improvement to their own conditions, that NR has already promised to them..at a later date, supposedly.
I guess if you wanted an argument, then you've got one, but pretty sad that you've got to alienate your fellow pilots to go and do so.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
69 er
I think the point that he's trying to drive home is that at some stage the disparity in income becomes nothing less than comparative servitude despite the equal requirements both parties have to meet, rank for rank. If the distinction you are making is because of leaving family behind, and I'm assuming you are excluding spouse and children, then there are plenty of those in the CEP rank who are the same, myself included. As you pointed out, things have changed recently with the opening up of the CEP program globally, and bear in mind that all of these changes have put CEPs further down the pecking order but which have galvanised a refusal to remain passive in the wake of these changes. By this I mean: the introduction of the instructor course in ADL, these guys will have more hours in bugsmashers than some in the regular courses but zero turbine time plus a 4 year jumpstart to the CX seniority list; the global CEP program, no guarantee of slots for the local hongers anymore, which is what it was originally designed for as kids here have zero opportunity to mow lawns while working their way through flight school; the CEP KA FOs who are now receiving a 'special allowance' but who I also believe are entitled to exactly the same living standard as their colleagues <12 K is nice, but simply not the same>; the SLS deduction which carried a 7% penalty to overall income v.s expats' estimated 3.5% (average numbers, and granted this point will be moot if we get it back); an FOC ticket with 11Y priority to get back to work vs 4Y, an education allowance which does not allow us to send our kids overseas unlike the expat package, the years of service that the Prestwick guys had to do before being allowed to join the seniority list.....and this is not even an exhaustive comparison. Bearing these in mind, is it not understandable why the CEPs are fed up at being treated like second class nothings, not just by the company but even by some of the guys they have to work with?
I think the point that he's trying to drive home is that at some stage the disparity in income becomes nothing less than comparative servitude despite the equal requirements both parties have to meet, rank for rank. If the distinction you are making is because of leaving family behind, and I'm assuming you are excluding spouse and children, then there are plenty of those in the CEP rank who are the same, myself included. As you pointed out, things have changed recently with the opening up of the CEP program globally, and bear in mind that all of these changes have put CEPs further down the pecking order but which have galvanised a refusal to remain passive in the wake of these changes. By this I mean: the introduction of the instructor course in ADL, these guys will have more hours in bugsmashers than some in the regular courses but zero turbine time plus a 4 year jumpstart to the CX seniority list; the global CEP program, no guarantee of slots for the local hongers anymore, which is what it was originally designed for as kids here have zero opportunity to mow lawns while working their way through flight school; the CEP KA FOs who are now receiving a 'special allowance' but who I also believe are entitled to exactly the same living standard as their colleagues <12 K is nice, but simply not the same>; the SLS deduction which carried a 7% penalty to overall income v.s expats' estimated 3.5% (average numbers, and granted this point will be moot if we get it back); an FOC ticket with 11Y priority to get back to work vs 4Y, an education allowance which does not allow us to send our kids overseas unlike the expat package, the years of service that the Prestwick guys had to do before being allowed to join the seniority list.....and this is not even an exhaustive comparison. Bearing these in mind, is it not understandable why the CEPs are fed up at being treated like second class nothings, not just by the company but even by some of the guys they have to work with?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mullah Lite,
Okay granted there are some CEPs that would be in the same position as an expat which makes the issue even more complex, but I am limiting my argument with cxchildlabor to those CEPs that have a very strong connection to Hong Kong, ie: born and bred, family ties, etc. The main issue here (putting aside special cases) is whether a 'local CEP' should be entitled to expat benefits. If you believe that they should because of same rank same pay, then you should be fighting for expat benefits for everyone, including those on a base, otherwise your argument doesn't hold up and you yourself are discriminating against the based crews. Now it is easy to say, well okay then expat benefits to everyone to justify your demand and argument, but is that being realistic. There are realistic and justifiable demands, I am sorry but this isn't one of them!
Yes agree with you it is utter BS and I support you fully on the above issue.
If the company is having a difficult time recruiting locally what other options do they have?? Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, if you don't want a distinction between expats and local CEPs, why should the CEP program be exclusive to locals from Hong Kong??
Huh???? How do you reckon????
Yes so you should have the same FOC priority as myself to get back home, no arguments there from me! Problem is that the CEP benefits were designed with the born and bred hongkers in mind, there were no allowances made for Chinese or non Chinese CEPs born and bred outside of Hong Kong or with very little connection to Hong Kong....and yes improvements to those areas are long overdue.
If the distinction you are making is because of leaving family behind, and I'm assuming you are excluding spouse and children, then there are plenty of those in the CEP rank who are the same, myself included.
the introduction of the instructor course in ADL, these guys will have more hours in bugsmashers than some in the regular courses but zero turbine time plus a 4 year jumpstart to the CX seniority list
the global CEP program, no guarantee of slots for the local hongers anymore, which is what it was originally designed for as kids here have zero opportunity to mow lawns while working their way through flight school
The SLS deduction which carried a 7% penalty to overall income v.s expats' estimated 3.5%
an FOC ticket with 11Y priority to get back to work vs 4Y, an education allowance which does not allow us to send our kids overseas unlike the expat package, the years of service that the Prestwick guys had to do before being allowed to join the seniority list.....and this is not even an exhaustive comparison
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Nuclear Dust City
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
69er,
So are you suggesting that all expats are getting housing allowance just because they HAD UNWILLINGLY stay in HKG??? In that case may I suggest that those who are WILLING to be relocated back home at short notice may get the allowance while in HKG, as for those who CHOOSES to stay in HKG don't? Cause I don't really see any sacrifices made in the latter case as they're here BY CHOICE.
I can assure you that if they opened up the pool to anyone and everyone from the start, this whole ordeal would've taken place even earlier. Imagine your next door neighboor back home coming to HKG and making half as much as you do here, I bet he'd be even more pissed than we are at this point.
If you put it that way, I sure have problems with the fact that those DEFO's were able to get employment on the base with Cathay compared to many who would've jumped at the opportunity to get the slot but were rejected by various reasons (fleet, rank, joker, etc). You're complaining about how people got hired by the company and thus should suffer for life? What a load of BULL. In that case, could you please write to the company and make sure NOBODY hired on the base EVER come to HKG on expat terms cause they were hired to work on the base in the first place.
And next time if you wanna make your argument valid, please get your facts straight. You're completely ignoring the fact (which the AOA confirmed with the media as well) that there are CEP's who were hired on DIRECT ENTRY TERMS yet were put on LOCAL TERMS once the company found out they own a HK ID card. This is hard proof that the company local terms wasn't designed for ex-cadets, it was designed to DISCRIMINATE those with a HK ID card. If they put EVERYONE who has a HK ID card on local terms, doesn't matter when and how he joined, then it wouldn't be a discimination issue, but that is NOT the case so far. And if you argue that cadets deserve to be on local terms FOR LIFE because of the shortcut and resources used, well then you can also go up to 3rd floor and make sure they put the INSTRUCTOR CADETS on local terms cause they have taken a shortcut and used company resources as well.
As much as I appreciate AOA's effort in helping out the CEP group so far, I'm not a big fan of the new title they've given us cause it's NOT TELLING THE TRUTH. The so-called "Cadet Entry Pilots" group consists of people who DID NOT join via the cadet programme and neither will it include ALL that did. The original title LEP "Locally Employed Pilots" describes the group MUCH MORE ACCURATELY.
Having said that, are you suggesting that a local CN should get full expat benefits when he is living in his home country with family nearby compared to an expat that has made the sacrifice to live abroad in a foreign place leaving family behind with poor prospects of being able to take a future base???
The cadet program really should have been open to anyone and everyone right from the start, and with the bigger pool of applications how many less 'locals' would have bee hired???
but you don't seem to have a problem with the fact that you as a Chinese Canadian were able to get employment at Cathay compared to many non Chinese Canadians that would have jumped at the opportunity to be a CEP
And next time if you wanna make your argument valid, please get your facts straight. You're completely ignoring the fact (which the AOA confirmed with the media as well) that there are CEP's who were hired on DIRECT ENTRY TERMS yet were put on LOCAL TERMS once the company found out they own a HK ID card. This is hard proof that the company local terms wasn't designed for ex-cadets, it was designed to DISCRIMINATE those with a HK ID card. If they put EVERYONE who has a HK ID card on local terms, doesn't matter when and how he joined, then it wouldn't be a discimination issue, but that is NOT the case so far. And if you argue that cadets deserve to be on local terms FOR LIFE because of the shortcut and resources used, well then you can also go up to 3rd floor and make sure they put the INSTRUCTOR CADETS on local terms cause they have taken a shortcut and used company resources as well.
As much as I appreciate AOA's effort in helping out the CEP group so far, I'm not a big fan of the new title they've given us cause it's NOT TELLING THE TRUTH. The so-called "Cadet Entry Pilots" group consists of people who DID NOT join via the cadet programme and neither will it include ALL that did. The original title LEP "Locally Employed Pilots" describes the group MUCH MORE ACCURATELY.