Don't be a Tool
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Don't be a Tool
I'm sick & tired of the same stupid mistakes and bad habits that run wild among my dear colleagues so here's a few worth mentioning. I'll come up with more as time goes on and my time allows. I have quite a few handed down from ATC controllers in the US whom I know.
You are required to have the latest ATIS before taxiing out or checking in with approach controller and so therefore it's been established FAA and ICAO procedure as mentioned in the FAA AIM and many ICAO equivalent publications you MUST repeat the ATIS code on initial call up for taxi or when checking in with approach. When you don't they have to ask you for it, and this happens almost all the time with us. You'd have to be real clueless not to notice that they keep having to make an extra effort to get it out of you every time you call, and yet most keep doing the same f'kkking thing every time over & over again. It's the same in HK as it is in the US, nothing new. And it's called ATIS not THE WEATHER, as it includes much more info than just the wx. Read the whole damn thing so you're not always confused about the fact that LAX tower/gnd. freqs. are combined during late non busy hours, you have to contact metering freq. first instead of ground during busy hours, etc... When you show your ignorance of something like mentioned above which is written in the ATIS because you only read the wx portion, and ATC has to repeat it for you or constantly ask cx flights to confirm they have the ATIS... YOU COME ACROSS AS AN AMATEUR!!! Why not just give HK ground the ATIS code on initial call up and not force them to pull it out of you every time??? It's you f'kkking home base for sh!t's sake, so what's you excuse there?!? Yes we all know cathay manuals are very poorly written and leave a lot to be desired, but you're still expected to know the procedure of the ICAO country you're flying in.
Don't keep modifying the FMS flight plan contrary to the clearance you have been given and accepted. It's FMS 101 at most airlines not to do that, especially when it comes to modifying the approach. Don't repeat that sh!t about what we can realistically expect etc... reality is the clearance, what you pull out of your a$$ and put in the FMS contrary to that is YOUR fantasy. That particular habit of imagining what you expect to be what you're supposed to do is a well known character flaw in pilots that has caused some serious and embarrassing incidents. They even have a name for it, it's called being an 'Expectationer'. Several times I have had to tell the other guy at the last moment : "Hey, the clearance has us doing this and you have that in the FMS and it's about to do it, don't let it!!!" It's at least embarrassing when ATC has to ask you "Cathay XXX... where are you going?!?!" or worse you could cause a traffic conflict which will make it all the way to the CP's office who won't be happy that his pilots came across as armatures out there, and will pass the pain down line to you. There are plenty of senior or not checkers, trainers or just line pilots that act like they're king of the hill in SE Asia who can't shut the f'kkk up about "your situational awareness is low since you don't know what to realistically expect next" or "descent planning this, descent planning that, you're above the profile, you're below the profile, blah, blah, blah" the same very exact ones are the same kind of tool that falls apart on you going into ORD, LAX, JFK, DFW or ATL during the busy hours when we don't even have an emergency and they can't f'kkking cope just because things are not going the way they 'realistically expected' them to or they have to step up their slow tempo etc... and keeps creating utter confusion with their utter ignorance of what's going on around them and force you to have to get on the radio and clear things up with a couple of sentences. And then when the very busy ATC who doesn't have time to babysit them or act like they're the center of the universe and let them do what they 'expected' gets upset and treats them like the amateur they're acting like, they get offended.
Don't be a tool and think you can take two minutes in NA airspace to start descending when you're issued a descent clearance just because vol. 2 says so, next you'll get the DESCENT NOW with a hint of 'what the f'kkk is wrong with you' from the ATC. Don't think you can descent at 200 fpm in terminal area just because vol. 2 says so and you want to be on your perfect world profile. Read the f'kkking AIM, it doesn't give you those options and you'll be treated like an amateur for doing something you're not expected to do or worse cause a safety issue.
Don't be a tool and hint on the radio with ATC instead of making an out right request for what you want because you 'expect' it. Like saying "cathay XXX reaching FL200" when you don't want to level off on the way to higher altitude instead of just saying "cathay XXX request higher" the first is a hint as if they forgot about you and not paying attention, the second is a direct request implying anything further. The first will get your head bitten off, and the second will tell you the reason why you're being leveled there which is either traffic or sector hand off snag. This isn't Manila control, you're not the center of universe here, no one is. If you get a sarcastic or angry response you most likely deserved it. You can't keep doing and saying the same things and expect a different response, because you know what that means!
There's absolutely nothing wrong with leveling for a mile or two before capturing the glideslope. First of all only an idiot plans to capture the glideslope from above intentionally instead of from below, second... do you ever wonder why we have so many FDAP reports and go-arounds due to being high and fast while others don't??? Take your constant descent VNAV profile and shove it! Especially if someone is new to the airplane or the airplane's handling can be different from yesterday to today due to large gross weight differences possible and prevalent. Someone who's been on the airplane for a long time can plan and perform a power off approach from TOD to at least start of approach. But a new guy who can't and is being pushed by the old & crusty among us will try it past his capability, not leaving himself a mile or two of level flight to slow down if needed, or just below profile so there's room to correct if needed, and will f'kkk it up too often as anyone with half a brain would expect. Add to that the fact that some pilots are just not as capable in handling the aircraft as othesr and will never get to that point, and also the fact that long haul pilots who get about one or two landing & takeoffs a month are the last people who should be pushing towards the edge of the envelope. Whatever you do, you can't keep hitting your head up against the wall and complain "ouch, that hurts". Every time there is a string of f'kkk ups, something has to change to prevent it from happening again. You can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different result.
Don't start doing something you're not supposed to do and say "non-standard" to me!!! WTFO ???!!! I don't ever want to hear those words. If it's non-standard then don't f'kkking do it!!! Show me where it says you can ignore standards and do otherwise by first saying "non-standard". If it's not in writing then it's not SOP. Don't be a f'kkking tool.
This kind of stuff is epidemic around here and all passed down from a few old tools (more like shoved down their throat) to some of the new comers who are willing and out of necessity of survival and fear they feel like they have to put in some effort and emulate the old tools and before long you'd never know they weren't tools when they first got here (Ok, some were). Meanwhile that leaves the majority of us having to laugh and shake our head more than we should.
You are required to have the latest ATIS before taxiing out or checking in with approach controller and so therefore it's been established FAA and ICAO procedure as mentioned in the FAA AIM and many ICAO equivalent publications you MUST repeat the ATIS code on initial call up for taxi or when checking in with approach. When you don't they have to ask you for it, and this happens almost all the time with us. You'd have to be real clueless not to notice that they keep having to make an extra effort to get it out of you every time you call, and yet most keep doing the same f'kkking thing every time over & over again. It's the same in HK as it is in the US, nothing new. And it's called ATIS not THE WEATHER, as it includes much more info than just the wx. Read the whole damn thing so you're not always confused about the fact that LAX tower/gnd. freqs. are combined during late non busy hours, you have to contact metering freq. first instead of ground during busy hours, etc... When you show your ignorance of something like mentioned above which is written in the ATIS because you only read the wx portion, and ATC has to repeat it for you or constantly ask cx flights to confirm they have the ATIS... YOU COME ACROSS AS AN AMATEUR!!! Why not just give HK ground the ATIS code on initial call up and not force them to pull it out of you every time??? It's you f'kkking home base for sh!t's sake, so what's you excuse there?!? Yes we all know cathay manuals are very poorly written and leave a lot to be desired, but you're still expected to know the procedure of the ICAO country you're flying in.
Don't keep modifying the FMS flight plan contrary to the clearance you have been given and accepted. It's FMS 101 at most airlines not to do that, especially when it comes to modifying the approach. Don't repeat that sh!t about what we can realistically expect etc... reality is the clearance, what you pull out of your a$$ and put in the FMS contrary to that is YOUR fantasy. That particular habit of imagining what you expect to be what you're supposed to do is a well known character flaw in pilots that has caused some serious and embarrassing incidents. They even have a name for it, it's called being an 'Expectationer'. Several times I have had to tell the other guy at the last moment : "Hey, the clearance has us doing this and you have that in the FMS and it's about to do it, don't let it!!!" It's at least embarrassing when ATC has to ask you "Cathay XXX... where are you going?!?!" or worse you could cause a traffic conflict which will make it all the way to the CP's office who won't be happy that his pilots came across as armatures out there, and will pass the pain down line to you. There are plenty of senior or not checkers, trainers or just line pilots that act like they're king of the hill in SE Asia who can't shut the f'kkk up about "your situational awareness is low since you don't know what to realistically expect next" or "descent planning this, descent planning that, you're above the profile, you're below the profile, blah, blah, blah" the same very exact ones are the same kind of tool that falls apart on you going into ORD, LAX, JFK, DFW or ATL during the busy hours when we don't even have an emergency and they can't f'kkking cope just because things are not going the way they 'realistically expected' them to or they have to step up their slow tempo etc... and keeps creating utter confusion with their utter ignorance of what's going on around them and force you to have to get on the radio and clear things up with a couple of sentences. And then when the very busy ATC who doesn't have time to babysit them or act like they're the center of the universe and let them do what they 'expected' gets upset and treats them like the amateur they're acting like, they get offended.
Don't be a tool and think you can take two minutes in NA airspace to start descending when you're issued a descent clearance just because vol. 2 says so, next you'll get the DESCENT NOW with a hint of 'what the f'kkk is wrong with you' from the ATC. Don't think you can descent at 200 fpm in terminal area just because vol. 2 says so and you want to be on your perfect world profile. Read the f'kkking AIM, it doesn't give you those options and you'll be treated like an amateur for doing something you're not expected to do or worse cause a safety issue.
Don't be a tool and hint on the radio with ATC instead of making an out right request for what you want because you 'expect' it. Like saying "cathay XXX reaching FL200" when you don't want to level off on the way to higher altitude instead of just saying "cathay XXX request higher" the first is a hint as if they forgot about you and not paying attention, the second is a direct request implying anything further. The first will get your head bitten off, and the second will tell you the reason why you're being leveled there which is either traffic or sector hand off snag. This isn't Manila control, you're not the center of universe here, no one is. If you get a sarcastic or angry response you most likely deserved it. You can't keep doing and saying the same things and expect a different response, because you know what that means!
There's absolutely nothing wrong with leveling for a mile or two before capturing the glideslope. First of all only an idiot plans to capture the glideslope from above intentionally instead of from below, second... do you ever wonder why we have so many FDAP reports and go-arounds due to being high and fast while others don't??? Take your constant descent VNAV profile and shove it! Especially if someone is new to the airplane or the airplane's handling can be different from yesterday to today due to large gross weight differences possible and prevalent. Someone who's been on the airplane for a long time can plan and perform a power off approach from TOD to at least start of approach. But a new guy who can't and is being pushed by the old & crusty among us will try it past his capability, not leaving himself a mile or two of level flight to slow down if needed, or just below profile so there's room to correct if needed, and will f'kkk it up too often as anyone with half a brain would expect. Add to that the fact that some pilots are just not as capable in handling the aircraft as othesr and will never get to that point, and also the fact that long haul pilots who get about one or two landing & takeoffs a month are the last people who should be pushing towards the edge of the envelope. Whatever you do, you can't keep hitting your head up against the wall and complain "ouch, that hurts". Every time there is a string of f'kkk ups, something has to change to prevent it from happening again. You can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different result.
Don't start doing something you're not supposed to do and say "non-standard" to me!!! WTFO ???!!! I don't ever want to hear those words. If it's non-standard then don't f'kkking do it!!! Show me where it says you can ignore standards and do otherwise by first saying "non-standard". If it's not in writing then it's not SOP. Don't be a f'kkking tool.
This kind of stuff is epidemic around here and all passed down from a few old tools (more like shoved down their throat) to some of the new comers who are willing and out of necessity of survival and fear they feel like they have to put in some effort and emulate the old tools and before long you'd never know they weren't tools when they first got here (Ok, some were). Meanwhile that leaves the majority of us having to laugh and shake our head more than we should.
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Don't start doing something you're not supposed to do and say "non-standard" to me!!! WTFO ???!!! I don't ever want to hear those words. If it's non-standard then don't f'kkking do it!!! Show me where it says you can ignore standards and do otherwise by first saying "non-standard". If it's not in writing then it's not SOP. Don't be a f'kkking tool.
ATIS on contact with approach I agree, in H.K. radar give you the ATIS code on first contact, long before you switch to App.
On contact to ground you should give A/C type, Bay #, F.L. Atis code and P.O.B on first contact. Do you do this?? The only station I know that follow the correct format is Singapore.... do you do this???
So you suggest we don't enter a speed / alt constraint over lets say SMO going to L.A.X ?
Instead of debriefing us here on an open public forum, write a training letter to Crews News.
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Don't be a tool and hint on the radio with ATC instead of making an out right request for what you want because you 'expect' it. Like saying "cathay XXX reaching FL200" when you don't want to level off on the way to higher altitude instead of just saying "cathay XXX request higher" the first is a hint as if they forgot about you and not paying attention, the second is a direct request implying anything further. The first will get your head bitten off, and the second will tell you the reason why you're being leveled there which is either traffic or sector hand off snag.
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Hey V, many years ago when I joined Cathay I remember feeling just like you do. Hang in there in kid, someday soon, as you gain proficiency, you'll realize that being level two miles before glideslope interception is really quite a lot! You know, something only inexperienced "tools" do!
BTW...I fly quite a lot into North America. I find that most controllers there are great, professional people, and we work well together. But in the past few years, it seems, some have become rude and irritable. I think these are the ones who scare you! These controllers like to indulge in a "parent to child" approach when issuing clearances to pilots. Maybe they feel we are there to make life easier for them, and not the other way around. Whatever the reason, when confronted with such rudeness, I recommend firing back. Otherwise it will continue to bother you. Don't take their guff! Only the inexperienced "tools" take that abuse!
Remember, any time this type of controller feels he can do our job, he can get the licence, the ratings, and thirty years of experience. In the mean time, he should shut up and control!
So hang in there V....and lay off the coffee and sweets!
BTW...I fly quite a lot into North America. I find that most controllers there are great, professional people, and we work well together. But in the past few years, it seems, some have become rude and irritable. I think these are the ones who scare you! These controllers like to indulge in a "parent to child" approach when issuing clearances to pilots. Maybe they feel we are there to make life easier for them, and not the other way around. Whatever the reason, when confronted with such rudeness, I recommend firing back. Otherwise it will continue to bother you. Don't take their guff! Only the inexperienced "tools" take that abuse!
Remember, any time this type of controller feels he can do our job, he can get the licence, the ratings, and thirty years of experience. In the mean time, he should shut up and control!
So hang in there V....and lay off the coffee and sweets!
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Well SMOC, obviously you're a genius. What I mean is that if he says "cross SMO at 7000 then descend & maintain 2500", don't be a tool and try to guess your track to touchdown miles. He's looking at your rate of descent to see where he can fit you on final or he already has decided and they ALWAYS base that on you descending as rapidly as practical as stated in the AIM. If you try to pull some fantasy out of your head and se VS @ 500 fpm then to him, you're a tool. The longer you take to get down, the further you will go on downwind.
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Hey raven, I've been here for some time now, I bet longer than you
. I can do a space shuttle approach from TOD no problem, it's the new comers I was talking about. Instead of letting them get a feel for the plane and then expand their envelope after they consolidate the basics, they're harped on to push it too far for their comfort level.
Do you ever stop to think the controllers have less tolerance because they don't have the time they used to back in the day to hold your hand and give you lots of room to do whatever you wish !?!
But thanks for the offer of brotherly advice and support, it's really cute. Why weren't you there for me many years ago man?
. I can do a space shuttle approach from TOD no problem, it's the new comers I was talking about. Instead of letting them get a feel for the plane and then expand their envelope after they consolidate the basics, they're harped on to push it too far for their comfort level.Do you ever stop to think the controllers have less tolerance because they don't have the time they used to back in the day to hold your hand and give you lots of room to do whatever you wish !?!
But thanks for the offer of brotherly advice and support, it's really cute. Why weren't you there for me many years ago man?
Last edited by VforVENDETTA; 28th Oct 2008 at 09:54.
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ATIS on contact with approach I agree, in H.K. radar give you the ATIS code on first contact, long before you switch to App
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After 9 months flying in NA I can honestly say most non-standard items are instigated by ATC. Most places don't even have an "Approach" freg only director-arrivals etc.
They don't call it approach control because they drop the first part for abbreviation. It's customary in British English to drop the first part (so they say control) and the opposite in American English, so in American English having dropped the second part they say approach, but it's the same thing in both cases when referred to in writing.That's why Americans call the Final approach, Final the British types call it Approach. But they're both referring to exactly the same thing.
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On contact to ground you should give A/C type, Bay #, F.L. Atis code and P.O.B on first contact. Do you do this?? The only station I know that follow the correct format is Singapore.... do you do this???
Last edited by VforVENDETTA; 28th Oct 2008 at 09:56.
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Could this "Vendetta" really be the infamous 'Lek Ah Heng' ex China Airlines?
I always thought an "armature" was either part of a dynamo,or part of an electric motor.
I always thought an "armature" was either part of a dynamo,or part of an electric motor.
Last edited by VforVENDETTA; 28th Oct 2008 at 09:58.