The NEW AOA, It is time!!!
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you tube ?
Apart from a "you tube " posting , in which the link was posted on this forum ( god knows how many from cx read this ?? ) , what else are they going to do to boost the membership , place an add in the crews news ?.....
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NC
Actually, I read PW's manifesto and I recall that he did say something that no other president has said; a point of difference. As a non-member... it was one of those things that made you go hmmmm...
Given that nobody has raised it, I now consider I misread his manifesto (sign of being an aging rockstar). I will try and find a copy and re-read it and perhaps post it up.
My issue on this thread has been the cheerleaders referring to the "New AOA" and their inconsistent views on the AOA and their inability to define what is new. If I have consistently rejected the AOA, like 45% of the pilot body, what is new about this one?
The arguments being used to join may be valid; but are not new... you have to be in to affect change... you reap the rewards; how about bearing the costs.... have been used previously... ND in 2000 springs to mind. Next I imagine.. you are for or against us; however George W might have killed that one.
Good luck with your decision regarding the AOA... I am sure whatever it is, it shall be very well considered.
Given that nobody has raised it, I now consider I misread his manifesto (sign of being an aging rockstar). I will try and find a copy and re-read it and perhaps post it up.
My issue on this thread has been the cheerleaders referring to the "New AOA" and their inconsistent views on the AOA and their inability to define what is new. If I have consistently rejected the AOA, like 45% of the pilot body, what is new about this one?
The arguments being used to join may be valid; but are not new... you have to be in to affect change... you reap the rewards; how about bearing the costs.... have been used previously... ND in 2000 springs to mind. Next I imagine.. you are for or against us; however George W might have killed that one.
Good luck with your decision regarding the AOA... I am sure whatever it is, it shall be very well considered.
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Twenty Committee Members
How is that going to work? , 20 people with 20 different agendas , lets start by getting on board of a couple of blood hungry lawyers..... more litigation and less individual agendas...committees just dont work , mark my words...
JF have you sent me a new pin yet ?
JF have you sent me a new pin yet ?
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do you think the aoa has a better negotiating position if
a) we have 10% membership
b) we have 55% membership or
c) we have 100% membership
not a tricky question, i think.
You don't need numbers you need balls.
DECs, 49ers, freighters, rostering = no balls.
No contract compliance = no balls.
Growing membership numbers with no balls is pointless.
Why increase the size of the rubber stamp?
a) we have 10% membership
b) we have 55% membership or
c) we have 100% membership
not a tricky question, i think.
You don't need numbers you need balls.
DECs, 49ers, freighters, rostering = no balls.
No contract compliance = no balls.
Growing membership numbers with no balls is pointless.
Why increase the size of the rubber stamp?
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BALLS and real negotiators..... LAWYERS not pilots..... or atleast a team of lawyers with a panel of pilots. Well that's the way it's done elsewhere....
Last edited by Humber10; 8th Aug 2008 at 15:53.
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I agree with H10 - WE REQUIRE REAL NEGOTIATORS AND LAWYERS.
What makes us think just because we fly heavy metal worldwide, we can negotiate with morons such as Kim Jon Phil and his henchmen, and think we are making ANY progression ? I don't call 3% rise progression, I call it an insult.
What makes us think just because we fly heavy metal worldwide, we can negotiate with morons such as Kim Jon Phil and his henchmen, and think we are making ANY progression ? I don't call 3% rise progression, I call it an insult.
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100% MEMBERSHIP consisting of WHOM?
Where are the lawyers suing the company for its violations of our contracts? NOWHERE!
What did the 90% membership do after the 49ers? NOTHING!
What did the senior First Officer members of the AOA do when upgrades to Captain were offered to fill the slots vacated by the fired 49ers? TOOK THE UPGRADES!
100% membership in the AOA will NOT cause the company to fear us or force them to provide us better CoS because the company knows that only a very small percentage of the AOA members would ever participate in any kind of legal activity (striking, working to rule, etc.) and that, other than the lawyers which the AOA either doesn't have, or doesn't use, is the ONLY way that a "union" can influence how its members are treated by the company.
It will NEVER happen, so this whole discussion about membership numbers and new leadership is moot...
What did the 90% membership do after the 49ers? NOTHING!
What did the senior First Officer members of the AOA do when upgrades to Captain were offered to fill the slots vacated by the fired 49ers? TOOK THE UPGRADES!
100% membership in the AOA will NOT cause the company to fear us or force them to provide us better CoS because the company knows that only a very small percentage of the AOA members would ever participate in any kind of legal activity (striking, working to rule, etc.) and that, other than the lawyers which the AOA either doesn't have, or doesn't use, is the ONLY way that a "union" can influence how its members are treated by the company.
It will NEVER happen, so this whole discussion about membership numbers and new leadership is moot...
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"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions."
If I was part of Swire or Cathay management, I'd make sure someone was posting in the style of Oval3Holer.
If I was part of Swire or Cathay management, I'd make sure someone was posting in the style of Oval3Holer.
Last edited by quadspeed; 9th Aug 2008 at 05:23.
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Do any of you guys know how much lawyers and professional negs cost??
At 55% membership for one we cant afford it!!! Besides the AoA does get lawyers involved when needed! Also CX work within the cracks of our contracts, lawyers would not necessarily get us the results that we need in a time frame that would suit us!! What is needed is a strong membership with a willingness to act against the company when required, ie CC!!
Oval man, what can i say, except, what do you offer as an option to what we have. I have always said, the AoA stops the company doing what it wants when it wants, it doesnt necessarily have the power to stop them all the time!!
At 55% membership for one we cant afford it!!! Besides the AoA does get lawyers involved when needed! Also CX work within the cracks of our contracts, lawyers would not necessarily get us the results that we need in a time frame that would suit us!! What is needed is a strong membership with a willingness to act against the company when required, ie CC!!
Oval man, what can i say, except, what do you offer as an option to what we have. I have always said, the AoA stops the company doing what it wants when it wants, it doesnt necessarily have the power to stop them all the time!!
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ANY talk of 'taking on the company' is futile with the present membership numbers. Until we have over 90% membership, we may as well shut up and spend our time developing some sort of coherent strategy. Most of you who 'rationalize' your decision to not be a member tend to be the first ones to whinge and complain about things. If you think you're going to see any improvement to your conditions while not contributing to the only organization that has a hope in hell of dealing with the company...well, you're bigger fools than I already believe you are. The AOA is not perfect...never will be. They are however the only organization that has ANY dealings with the company on an industrial level. Or I suppose you fancy your chances of an 'individual' pay raise if you drop by Nicks office and ask him how the wife and kids are...? Time to grow up boys. Join the AOA, or please, shut it. The first thing I ask someone who is whining now is 'are you an AOA member'. If the answer is no, I tune them out as they don't deserve further consideration. Perhaps a little history lesson: when the membership was almost 100%, we saw raises of 10% + per year. I don't think that will happen again, but we certainly won't see a whiff of such numbers at present membership levels. BTW, Lufthansa just awarded their pilots 9%, with further raises for the next 3 years.....oh, and they nearly all belong to their union.
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Oval3holer (actually, you're probably a 4 holer....but won't go there): you sir are a first class idiot. After the 49ers, the membership provided substantial legal and financial help. I don't suppose you had anything to contribute to that effort...? No, thought not.
Last edited by Apple Tree Yard; 11th Aug 2008 at 04:46.
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Besides the AoA does get lawyers involved when needed! Also CX work within the cracks of our contracts, lawyers would not necessarily get us the results that we need in a time frame that would suit us!!
With non-membership at 45% that tells me that 45% are happy with current T+C's and/or are not prepared to do anything about it.
Even when membership was over 90%, the company still got what they wanted, so how do you believe that getting everybody on board will change anything? Strong leadership has to lead the way with strong actions. Something that members like myself can take to non-members and say, "look at this, look what we achieved". At the moment, the best I have to offer to non-members is that they get this little gold pin to put on their tie.
You show me some actions, something to believe in besides talk, and I will show you membership increases. In my opinion, 45% non-membership says those pilots feel that their money would be wasted. I don't think that they are happy with their T&C, they just don't think paying AOA fees will change that. If you want to change that view you need to show them action. Pilot's are very rational thinkers, and what you are asking from them is sort of like "religious faith".
Up to now, all we have seen from the AOA is cooperation and submission to the company. Every update I receive reads "we will meet soon to discuss", or "we haven't reached an agreement, so this is what will happen". Or even "though you voted, we are gonna give you a chance to change your mind and see things our way".
That mentality, sir, really needs to change.
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Squawk7700 you make very valid points that i think most members are feeling. I too am looking for more positive results with this new GC. I do feel however that the AoA gets a very bad wrap for the old question "What have they ever done?" I think most people would hate to think what life in CX would be like with no representation at all. I dont think the AoA is the answer to all our problems but they are the buffer we desperately need!!
90% membership must have been in the old A scale happy pilot days. Nothing against them but, pilots wont lift a finger to help themselves if the job is paying well and generally a good life. How times have changed, look what happened to Dragonair, i dont think CX is far behind. The next upturn in this industry will be interesting to say the least. 80% membership with most pilots very unhappy at work and with the company, with job options elsewhere, well now wouldnt that be interesting???
As i always ask, what are the options we have??? A strong AoA gives us our best protection and i really dont see it as being any harder than that??
90% membership must have been in the old A scale happy pilot days. Nothing against them but, pilots wont lift a finger to help themselves if the job is paying well and generally a good life. How times have changed, look what happened to Dragonair, i dont think CX is far behind. The next upturn in this industry will be interesting to say the least. 80% membership with most pilots very unhappy at work and with the company, with job options elsewhere, well now wouldnt that be interesting???
As i always ask, what are the options we have??? A strong AoA gives us our best protection and i really dont see it as being any harder than that??
