Cathay Girls
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Max Reheat
You are correct...I would squirm as would others and we just may do that sooner than later with the hiring of KA and OA crews. Essentially Direct Entry Captains are coming and no Bypass Pay will be paid for those normally eligible when delayed for a Command.
But, there is a difference when it comes to the make-up of the CC system. Based CC CANNOT elect to move outside of their base area! Their seniority is held within the base area and so CX has again created a division among the crews. But this is not all CX's fault as the based CC are locally hired and must have the legal right of abode which eliminates most of the HKG CC from applying.
But my comments earlier were to identify the differences of the crews with regards to camaraderie which has more to do with upbringing then citizenship.
You are correct...I would squirm as would others and we just may do that sooner than later with the hiring of KA and OA crews. Essentially Direct Entry Captains are coming and no Bypass Pay will be paid for those normally eligible when delayed for a Command.
But, there is a difference when it comes to the make-up of the CC system. Based CC CANNOT elect to move outside of their base area! Their seniority is held within the base area and so CX has again created a division among the crews. But this is not all CX's fault as the based CC are locally hired and must have the legal right of abode which eliminates most of the HKG CC from applying.
But my comments earlier were to identify the differences of the crews with regards to camaraderie which has more to do with upbringing then citizenship.
cpdude,
You miss the point.
HKG based crew are unhappy with the based crew system (and perhaps the individuals themselves) because for every ISM promoted on the bases, there is one less slot available in HKG. There is still only a finite number of flights to be crewed. For them, the right of abode overseas is beside the point.
I'm sure you are aware that our most senior SPs have been in the company for in excess of 22 years now, and there is still no immediate light on the horizon for them because of all these based crew being promoted outside of the established seniority system.
Again (and you are correct) it is another case of the company riding roughshod over the established contracts of it's most senior and loyal employees.
The day will come... but until then, all we can do is...
Lead, command and set the example.
You miss the point.
HKG based crew are unhappy with the based crew system (and perhaps the individuals themselves) because for every ISM promoted on the bases, there is one less slot available in HKG. There is still only a finite number of flights to be crewed. For them, the right of abode overseas is beside the point.
I'm sure you are aware that our most senior SPs have been in the company for in excess of 22 years now, and there is still no immediate light on the horizon for them because of all these based crew being promoted outside of the established seniority system.
Again (and you are correct) it is another case of the company riding roughshod over the established contracts of it's most senior and loyal employees.
The day will come... but until then, all we can do is...
Lead, command and set the example.
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2 cents
just to highlight a piece of chinese culture. Generally the chinese like to be able to respond with a gift when given something, even if it is a small gift from them. In western culture we are quite delighted to be given something unexpected, for many chinese there can actually be a small embarassment/loss of face that they haven't something to give you in return. This is not something that has developed in todays society/cabin-crew but has been part of the culture for centuries.
Think about when you go for a few beers with your friends, you always feel a awkward if one person is buying all the beers, in polite western society you always like to buy a beer in return.
J57 and others
generalizations might be good when talking about cattle, but when talking about individuals/people, remember there are many individuals amongst the cabin crew that make things great and some that make things bad. Specific examples of a-holes is better that whitewashing the community with the same moniker. And please do not suggest that cc are told that all flt crew are bad, just look at what you are saying about them here - it's the same right - you telling other pilots the cc are bad?
Hoping that the school teacher comes out to ring the bell soon so that playtime comes to an end!
Regards,
N1 Vibes
just to highlight a piece of chinese culture. Generally the chinese like to be able to respond with a gift when given something, even if it is a small gift from them. In western culture we are quite delighted to be given something unexpected, for many chinese there can actually be a small embarassment/loss of face that they haven't something to give you in return. This is not something that has developed in todays society/cabin-crew but has been part of the culture for centuries.
Think about when you go for a few beers with your friends, you always feel a awkward if one person is buying all the beers, in polite western society you always like to buy a beer in return.
J57 and others
generalizations might be good when talking about cattle, but when talking about individuals/people, remember there are many individuals amongst the cabin crew that make things great and some that make things bad. Specific examples of a-holes is better that whitewashing the community with the same moniker. And please do not suggest that cc are told that all flt crew are bad, just look at what you are saying about them here - it's the same right - you telling other pilots the cc are bad?
Hoping that the school teacher comes out to ring the bell soon so that playtime comes to an end!
Regards,
N1 Vibes
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N1...
Unfortunately most of the CC DO share the same mentality, therefore I feel it fair to generalize here.
Only the minority have great CRM, professionalism, social skills etc.
Unfortunately most of the CC DO share the same mentality, therefore I feel it fair to generalize here.
Only the minority have great CRM, professionalism, social skills etc.
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Simplex, ask yourself why?
400 Jock, fac6, Panza and Jack I agree with you all.
I find them all rude and moody and if you say anything non-standard to them they assume you're chatting them up.
Last year I was on a flight with a real nice Skipper, he invited all the girls out for dinner (he offered to pay.) It wasn't min rest, was a short flight and the restaurant was basically in front of the hotel so no excuses about needing sleep, too far etc. The ISM said thanks but no thanks they were off to bed etc.
I go to this place with the Captain then about 15 minutes who walks in with about 10 of the Cabin Crew? The ISM!
I know they have no obligation at all to eat with us etc. but that was rude.
All this boll*x about girls being lumbered with high bar bills etc is a load of sh*t too.
I have also been treated like **** many times on staff travel so now I just don't do it. Much prefer ID on other airlines. Yes it's more expensive but worth it for not being treated like rubbish. Maybe that's something you guys should consider
400 Jock, fac6, Panza and Jack I agree with you all.
I find them all rude and moody and if you say anything non-standard to them they assume you're chatting them up.
Last year I was on a flight with a real nice Skipper, he invited all the girls out for dinner (he offered to pay.) It wasn't min rest, was a short flight and the restaurant was basically in front of the hotel so no excuses about needing sleep, too far etc. The ISM said thanks but no thanks they were off to bed etc.
I go to this place with the Captain then about 15 minutes who walks in with about 10 of the Cabin Crew? The ISM!
I know they have no obligation at all to eat with us etc. but that was rude.
All this boll*x about girls being lumbered with high bar bills etc is a load of sh*t too.
I have also been treated like **** many times on staff travel so now I just don't do it. Much prefer ID on other airlines. Yes it's more expensive but worth it for not being treated like rubbish. Maybe that's something you guys should consider
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I say bring back the 'Asian - Other' cabin crew.
(i.e Korean, Japanese, Filipina, Sri Lankan, Thai, Indian, Malaysian and, dare I say, Singaporean girls).
In my experience:
The 'selfish gene' is very strong in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong girls reach an adult level of maturity at about 40.
These are two aspects that put the more diverse crew of say 15 years ago at a strong advantage - they acted grown up and had a sense of fun and a wider life experience that the canto-mall-girls than we seem to draw today.
I often wonder what would happen if we had a *real* in-flight emergency. I somehow imagine that we would find half the CC huddled together crying in the aft galley.
I understand that CX are starting the spread the net wider again, which is a good thing.
BTW the London based crews are a legend. It is apparent when you step on the aircraft that you are dealing with a different mindset.
(i.e Korean, Japanese, Filipina, Sri Lankan, Thai, Indian, Malaysian and, dare I say, Singaporean girls).
In my experience:
The 'selfish gene' is very strong in Hong Kong.
Hong Kong girls reach an adult level of maturity at about 40.
These are two aspects that put the more diverse crew of say 15 years ago at a strong advantage - they acted grown up and had a sense of fun and a wider life experience that the canto-mall-girls than we seem to draw today.
I often wonder what would happen if we had a *real* in-flight emergency. I somehow imagine that we would find half the CC huddled together crying in the aft galley.
I understand that CX are starting the spread the net wider again, which is a good thing.
BTW the London based crews are a legend. It is apparent when you step on the aircraft that you are dealing with a different mindset.
Last edited by Busbert; 25th May 2008 at 02:49. Reason: typo
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(dont taze me because I am not a pilot, just was married to a Taiwanese CX cabin crew member)
My then wife never had a bad word to say about any of the FD crew she worked with. She did have tons to say about other cabin crew though. She went from trainee to Senior Purser in 7 years. She loved her job way too much. But I did get the feel from her that there is the CAbin Crew and then there is the Flight Deck crew. The Captain was always the person of authority and therefore not someone to go out with (it would be like an extension of work) . They would rather hang out with other cabin crew and seem to follow the lead of the Chief Purser, who is really "their" leader. Walking around in HK with her , if she spotted a Chief Purser she would always go up and talk with him/her. But never a pilot.
Oh and I used to fly often TPE/HK in First Class on a ten pct ticket. And I was warned by her that the cabin crew would know I am not a real First Class passenger so I must behave myself accordingly. And actually I guess maybe they knew my wife was an SP because I was always treated with smiles and always got fantastic service!!
p.s. we are talking late 80s here by the way.
I guess CX is a difficult place to work nowadays. But its always been my Fav Airline (along with SQ....sorry)
My then wife never had a bad word to say about any of the FD crew she worked with. She did have tons to say about other cabin crew though. She went from trainee to Senior Purser in 7 years. She loved her job way too much. But I did get the feel from her that there is the CAbin Crew and then there is the Flight Deck crew. The Captain was always the person of authority and therefore not someone to go out with (it would be like an extension of work) . They would rather hang out with other cabin crew and seem to follow the lead of the Chief Purser, who is really "their" leader. Walking around in HK with her , if she spotted a Chief Purser she would always go up and talk with him/her. But never a pilot.
Oh and I used to fly often TPE/HK in First Class on a ten pct ticket. And I was warned by her that the cabin crew would know I am not a real First Class passenger so I must behave myself accordingly. And actually I guess maybe they knew my wife was an SP because I was always treated with smiles and always got fantastic service!!
p.s. we are talking late 80s here by the way.
I guess CX is a difficult place to work nowadays. But its always been my Fav Airline (along with SQ....sorry)
Last edited by armchairpilot94116; 25th May 2008 at 05:03.
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Busbert that's a disgraceful thing to say! I suggest you go to FSD and read the report on the HKG-FRA uncontained engine fire out of Kai Tak before casting aspersions on the cabin crews professionalism in an emergency..... 
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Kitsune - valid point, but have you also read the report on the A340 wheel fire incident in the latest safety mag?
That and other incidents I have experienced first hand make me lean more towards Busbert's way of thinking.
That and other incidents I have experienced first hand make me lean more towards Busbert's way of thinking.
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HKG-FRA uncontained engine fire out of Kai Tak
That was 13 years ago, Cabin crew diversity was far greater, attitude more service orientated. The Canto influence far less prevalent. Keep in mind, "Gen Y" were not in the workforce at that time. Gen Y have a completely different set of rules and expectations, irrespective of cultural influence. That said, peanuts and monkeys might have something to do with the problem.
Another quick post before this finally gets 'put-to-bed.'
Way back on page 1 item 3 of this thread Fenwicksgirl stated that the crew relationship is good for marriages.
Well, Ms FG, I feel, from first hand experience, that the lack of interaction has precisely the opposite effect on marriages. Because our spoilt, pampered wives get too comfortable and forget that their primary role in life is to keep the family together and in the process lose sight of the fact that the best way to do this is to keep the 'old man' happy!!!
Sorry, but being on one side of a broken marriage for exactly this reason has tainted my view of Gweipos and I shall never change my mind since it cost me everything I had worked 20 years for.
The relationship between the cabin crew and pilots has taken a steep slide in the past decade for many reasons which have been eloquently outlined here by the folks willing to post sensible responses to the initial question.
It will only improve when the pilots take the initiative. It can be done... trust me.
Lead, command, set the example.
Way back on page 1 item 3 of this thread Fenwicksgirl stated that the crew relationship is good for marriages.
Well, Ms FG, I feel, from first hand experience, that the lack of interaction has precisely the opposite effect on marriages. Because our spoilt, pampered wives get too comfortable and forget that their primary role in life is to keep the family together and in the process lose sight of the fact that the best way to do this is to keep the 'old man' happy!!!
Sorry, but being on one side of a broken marriage for exactly this reason has tainted my view of Gweipos and I shall never change my mind since it cost me everything I had worked 20 years for.
The relationship between the cabin crew and pilots has taken a steep slide in the past decade for many reasons which have been eloquently outlined here by the folks willing to post sensible responses to the initial question.
It will only improve when the pilots take the initiative. It can be done... trust me.
Lead, command, set the example.
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Not saying most pilots are thinking of such a thing but using cabin crew as a cheap date wouldnt be the thing to do.
A lot of the CX juniors are early twenties and not likely to be too interested in 45 plus year old FO or Captains in a romantic capacity? Not to mention that most likely these men are already married. Your younger First Officers though may get more interest from the ladies I would imagine? SPs who are older then the juniors most likely already have someone in their lives already.
Good CRM between flight deck and the cabin crew is obviously desired for a good flight and for safety reasons. I am sure some airlines have this worked out better then others for whatever reasons.
Not really surprising if the CAbin Crew feel that the Chief Pursor / ISM is more their boss as he/she calls the shots in their work space. Although their very lives depend on the flight deck crew. And they should remember this I think.
Things must have gone downhill since 1980 to 1990 when my lady was flying as a stewardess.
A lot of the CX juniors are early twenties and not likely to be too interested in 45 plus year old FO or Captains in a romantic capacity? Not to mention that most likely these men are already married. Your younger First Officers though may get more interest from the ladies I would imagine? SPs who are older then the juniors most likely already have someone in their lives already.
Good CRM between flight deck and the cabin crew is obviously desired for a good flight and for safety reasons. I am sure some airlines have this worked out better then others for whatever reasons.
Not really surprising if the CAbin Crew feel that the Chief Pursor / ISM is more their boss as he/she calls the shots in their work space. Although their very lives depend on the flight deck crew. And they should remember this I think.
Things must have gone downhill since 1980 to 1990 when my lady was flying as a stewardess.
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Many generalisations here, but alas, most are true about the HKG cabin crew. Some months ago I overheard some very junior crew make some very offensive comments about one of the FO's on the crew behind his back. I can understand Cantonese fairly well, although speaking it I find difficult. When I approached the persons involved, with the backing of the Malaysian ISM, they were genuinely shocked that I had understood and proceeded to apologise to the bewildered FO. Afterwards, they were giggling and laughing as if nothing had happened.
To me, this is just typical of the standard of the junior crew. Maybe CX has finally woken up to the fact, hence the move to increase recruiting from other than Hong Kong.
I go out of my way to try and foster good relations with any crew I fly with. Unfortunately, the cliquey bunch of immature newbies that have been hired over the last few years make that very difficult. No wonder CX service standards have fallen well behind our competitors over the last few years. They purely see it as a job that gives them cheap travel. They don't see it as a career.
To me, this is just typical of the standard of the junior crew. Maybe CX has finally woken up to the fact, hence the move to increase recruiting from other than Hong Kong.
I go out of my way to try and foster good relations with any crew I fly with. Unfortunately, the cliquey bunch of immature newbies that have been hired over the last few years make that very difficult. No wonder CX service standards have fallen well behind our competitors over the last few years. They purely see it as a job that gives them cheap travel. They don't see it as a career.
In the late eighties and early nineties, Cathay Pacific was not just was proud of, but advertised the fact that its cabin crew came from (then) 'ten different Asian lands'. We were Asia's airline, not Mong Kok Airways as we are today.
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Wow Wow Wow
Guys,
What can I say. I am totally flabbergasted. Actually my intention was just to get a few answers on what I thought were minor stuff. Little did I know I was opening a massive can of worms.
Well you can kind of know and feel that it IS a major issue in the mind of many pilots but it's like a topic many guys want to avoid up front(in the deck), I guess to avoid making remarks that might be offensive(thank God fo Pprune).
I am pretty much new in Cx so am just trying to find my way through the company. In general I still have a pretty positive view of the company, hopes it stays this way, except of course the cabin situation. In general it's allright but from what I see and have experienced these months it's a COMPLETELY odd atmosphere in which 2 teams collide massively.
I DID do all what the other guys suggested me to do like go and introduce myself , even help some of them with their heavy stuff be as pollite as I can during the flight, try to learn and speak some words be patient while they are working but....... I don't mean to be a pain but it just is different(not to call it FU#$ED UP). Not saying thank you for certain things or even not saying hello seems to be a common thing around these gals. Got a little pissed the other day when I met a bunch of the members of my flight in the elevator and they came in looked at me in the face and just didn't say nothing, I JUST FLEW WITH YOU GUYS FOR 12 HOURS you B@^&HES and introduced myself , I mean what is wrong with these people????? I am SURE that it ain't Chinese culture cause outside of Cx it's COMPLETELY different.
For the guys who have criticized me about my complaints ,well mates I don't recall talking about cabin crew that HAVE to be with the cockpit because of our wallets(N1 vibes) or that being a pilot HAS to impress them or that I wish to SHAG them all(they are by far not the hottest chicks), or EVEN me BEING an expert in SOCIO F%#$@*ING economics(ColdWAR). I'm just a simple pilot that tries to get a long with the whole CREW and am just amazed by the major efforts of the cabin to NOT to and to preferably keep the boys upfront as much away from them as possible.
All of this kind of hurts when you speak to guys or see other companies' crew members and the way most of them get along with each other. I kind of getting the feeling here is definitely the complete opposite of EU/US carriers in the cabin/cockpit aspect.
Ooh well I guess I kind of have to live with it I guess. There are more positive stuff about this job anyway, FOR ME, FOR ME(before some of you negative idiots criticize my positive view of CX). Just hope some of this changes ,of course it does not have to be a "EMIRATES"(The IBIZA of aviation) but hope at least some social aspects of the gals in the back improve.
Cheers
What can I say. I am totally flabbergasted. Actually my intention was just to get a few answers on what I thought were minor stuff. Little did I know I was opening a massive can of worms.
Well you can kind of know and feel that it IS a major issue in the mind of many pilots but it's like a topic many guys want to avoid up front(in the deck), I guess to avoid making remarks that might be offensive(thank God fo Pprune).
I am pretty much new in Cx so am just trying to find my way through the company. In general I still have a pretty positive view of the company, hopes it stays this way, except of course the cabin situation. In general it's allright but from what I see and have experienced these months it's a COMPLETELY odd atmosphere in which 2 teams collide massively.
I DID do all what the other guys suggested me to do like go and introduce myself , even help some of them with their heavy stuff be as pollite as I can during the flight, try to learn and speak some words be patient while they are working but....... I don't mean to be a pain but it just is different(not to call it FU#$ED UP). Not saying thank you for certain things or even not saying hello seems to be a common thing around these gals. Got a little pissed the other day when I met a bunch of the members of my flight in the elevator and they came in looked at me in the face and just didn't say nothing, I JUST FLEW WITH YOU GUYS FOR 12 HOURS you B@^&HES and introduced myself , I mean what is wrong with these people????? I am SURE that it ain't Chinese culture cause outside of Cx it's COMPLETELY different.
For the guys who have criticized me about my complaints ,well mates I don't recall talking about cabin crew that HAVE to be with the cockpit because of our wallets(N1 vibes) or that being a pilot HAS to impress them or that I wish to SHAG them all(they are by far not the hottest chicks), or EVEN me BEING an expert in SOCIO F%#$@*ING economics(ColdWAR). I'm just a simple pilot that tries to get a long with the whole CREW and am just amazed by the major efforts of the cabin to NOT to and to preferably keep the boys upfront as much away from them as possible.
All of this kind of hurts when you speak to guys or see other companies' crew members and the way most of them get along with each other. I kind of getting the feeling here is definitely the complete opposite of EU/US carriers in the cabin/cockpit aspect.
Ooh well I guess I kind of have to live with it I guess. There are more positive stuff about this job anyway, FOR ME, FOR ME(before some of you negative idiots criticize my positive view of CX). Just hope some of this changes ,of course it does not have to be a "EMIRATES"(The IBIZA of aviation) but hope at least some social aspects of the gals in the back improve.
Cheers
Yes it is a bit hit or miss with the crew. As I said before the way the crew get along with us is totally up to the ISM. Generally the crew take their lead from the ISM. If we are flying with a local ISM then basically forget any after hours fun with the crew.
"leave my crew alone, they are tooo tired" blah blah blah.
And don't give me the standard answer "they can't afford to buy drinks for us" .........because most guys will shout them.
p.s. the Japanese girls sure do like a beer
Still, maybe It's better for my marriage in the long run!! and wallet
"leave my crew alone, they are tooo tired" blah blah blah.
And don't give me the standard answer "they can't afford to buy drinks for us" .........because most guys will shout them.
p.s. the Japanese girls sure do like a beer
Still, maybe It's better for my marriage in the long run!! and wallet