Update on pay negotiations
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ULRequalsSLeep
You just made my day!!!!!
What a sense of humour!
So happy to finally see someone positive. I guess when all hope is lost there is always self deception!!
You just made my day!!!!!
What a sense of humour!
So happy to finally see someone positive. I guess when all hope is lost there is always self deception!!
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From Wombatatico
"Why is the AOA being so damn nice?
1) Why not even one reminder to not answer your phone on G days, let alone volunteer to work one?
2) Why not remind mainline folks, who joined prior to 2002(?), that not only are they NOT required to fly the freighter, but that it hurts the ENTIRE pilot group's leaverage when they do so."
Mate,
Your wonderfull AOA is nothing but a SPINELESS,USELESS,PATHETIC wannabee negotioting team run by CX management..
Can't believe there are actually still guys out there who support them!!What a joke...wake up ladies,get a grip on your situational awareness...
"Why is the AOA being so damn nice?
1) Why not even one reminder to not answer your phone on G days, let alone volunteer to work one?
2) Why not remind mainline folks, who joined prior to 2002(?), that not only are they NOT required to fly the freighter, but that it hurts the ENTIRE pilot group's leaverage when they do so."
Mate,
Your wonderfull AOA is nothing but a SPINELESS,USELESS,PATHETIC wannabee negotioting team run by CX management..
Can't believe there are actually still guys out there who support them!!What a joke...wake up ladies,get a grip on your situational awareness...
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whatever!!
Hey slappa, although i do in part agree about the ineffectiveness(by the way, they can only be as good as their membership is) of the AOA i do feel the boys there are doing their level best. I have always viewed things as not what the AOA can do for us but what they prevent the company getting away with.
I believe NR and the others have already been given their figure to work with and it is now up to them to screw it down as much as possible, hoping we will accept less. Now a little birdie has told me NR is very frustrated with the way things are going, roadblocks etc, this would indicate to me that the AOA are doing at least something.
Ulitmately 2 factors are going to drive this figure.
1. The cost involved in losing freighter jocks and trying to get us to fly frieght a/c.
2. The cost required to attract new joiners, not at critical levels yet but then we havent even started with the real recruiting push yet!!!
Of course there are the threats of losing younger pilots to their domicile airlines but i feel Cathay wont bother about this until it really happens, after all, since when have pilots had the balls to vote with their feet??
Age 65 will help, but most soon to be retirees are A scale and CX arent in a rush to keep them.
So as far as the AOA are concerned, until you are all happy to individually neg your contract with NR, then i think we really do need them!!
I believe NR and the others have already been given their figure to work with and it is now up to them to screw it down as much as possible, hoping we will accept less. Now a little birdie has told me NR is very frustrated with the way things are going, roadblocks etc, this would indicate to me that the AOA are doing at least something.
Ulitmately 2 factors are going to drive this figure.
1. The cost involved in losing freighter jocks and trying to get us to fly frieght a/c.
2. The cost required to attract new joiners, not at critical levels yet but then we havent even started with the real recruiting push yet!!!
Of course there are the threats of losing younger pilots to their domicile airlines but i feel Cathay wont bother about this until it really happens, after all, since when have pilots had the balls to vote with their feet??
Age 65 will help, but most soon to be retirees are A scale and CX arent in a rush to keep them.
So as far as the AOA are concerned, until you are all happy to individually neg your contract with NR, then i think we really do need them!!
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The age 65 vote is coming soon,and 1 of 2 things will happen:
1) The age 65 vote passes and the AOA loses 50% of members who are NOT happy with this,especially FO's who's command WILL be pushed back by a few years;
2) The age 65 vote does not pass and the AOA loses 50% of it's members,mainly captains who wanted to work until they drop dead..
Either way..the AOA is screwed..EXACTLY what CX wants!!A weak membership not even representing 25% of the pilot body..the rest of what will happen speaks for itself..
You have NO idea as to what a union is..I'll tell you: It's a body who represents it's members and who has negotiating and bargaining powers.It's a body who DEMANDS certain conditions and pay-rises..and who embarks on a massive strike UNTIL their demands are met...that sir..is a union...
The AOA doesn't even come close to this definition,because it's run by a bunch of girl scouts,voted for by YOU!!!
Let the circus continue...!!!!
1) The age 65 vote passes and the AOA loses 50% of members who are NOT happy with this,especially FO's who's command WILL be pushed back by a few years;
2) The age 65 vote does not pass and the AOA loses 50% of it's members,mainly captains who wanted to work until they drop dead..
Either way..the AOA is screwed..EXACTLY what CX wants!!A weak membership not even representing 25% of the pilot body..the rest of what will happen speaks for itself..
You have NO idea as to what a union is..I'll tell you: It's a body who represents it's members and who has negotiating and bargaining powers.It's a body who DEMANDS certain conditions and pay-rises..and who embarks on a massive strike UNTIL their demands are met...that sir..is a union...
The AOA doesn't even come close to this definition,because it's run by a bunch of girl scouts,voted for by YOU!!!
Let the circus continue...!!!!
slapfaan,
Your total naivety when condemming a Union who are trying to represent expatriates working for a company based in HKG is really quite entertaining (a bit like watching a child with his first jigsaw puzzle). The AOA does its best to negotiate using logic and practicalities to prevent the worst of CX's draconian efforts with a certain amount of success (not a huge amount I grant you). The more support it has the more attention will be given to it.
The age 65 item is irrelevant to the AOA, legislation will force it in eventually so do you want a negotiated transition or wham, bang and in?
Yours is not a definition of a Union, its a description of some Unions in some countries. Name me one Union in HKG like that.
Your total naivety when condemming a Union who are trying to represent expatriates working for a company based in HKG is really quite entertaining (a bit like watching a child with his first jigsaw puzzle). The AOA does its best to negotiate using logic and practicalities to prevent the worst of CX's draconian efforts with a certain amount of success (not a huge amount I grant you). The more support it has the more attention will be given to it.
The age 65 item is irrelevant to the AOA, legislation will force it in eventually so do you want a negotiated transition or wham, bang and in?
Yours is not a definition of a Union, its a description of some Unions in some countries. Name me one Union in HKG like that.
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slapfaan,
Firstly, your assumptions concerning the demographics of the AOA are wrong.
Apparently you have no idea what the AOA is! It's an association and not a union although often it is incorrectly referred to as one. It is a voice and not a real force to be dealt with. It's all we have and it's limited strength or weakness is indicative of it's members unity. IE. it has no strength thanks to people like you! So, you're either part of the solution or just part of the problem!
My take is if you are NOT in the AOA then you are hypocritical if you complain about conditions.
Firstly, your assumptions concerning the demographics of the AOA are wrong.
Apparently you have no idea what the AOA is! It's an association and not a union although often it is incorrectly referred to as one. It is a voice and not a real force to be dealt with. It's all we have and it's limited strength or weakness is indicative of it's members unity. IE. it has no strength thanks to people like you! So, you're either part of the solution or just part of the problem!
My take is if you are NOT in the AOA then you are hypocritical if you complain about conditions.
Newbie,
I don't think you're right. Both Balpa and AOA have taken advice on the Age Discrimination Legislation and despite it possibly having to go to court in a test case it seems to hold good. BA have immediately changed their contractual retirement age so they didn't think they would win.
In France Ryanair and Easyjet have had a court rule that they must follow local employment laws.
HKG hasn't yet got this legislation so I suppose you could have a retirement age of 55 for HKG based pilots and 65 for based ones!! That would cause some havoc,
I don't think you're right. Both Balpa and AOA have taken advice on the Age Discrimination Legislation and despite it possibly having to go to court in a test case it seems to hold good. BA have immediately changed their contractual retirement age so they didn't think they would win.
In France Ryanair and Easyjet have had a court rule that they must follow local employment laws.
HKG hasn't yet got this legislation so I suppose you could have a retirement age of 55 for HKG based pilots and 65 for based ones!! That would cause some havoc,
newbie1972
Wrong. Under contract law, the terms of a contract can be made null and void by a change in government legislation. And when the law does change it won’t be CX forcing anything. It will be the SAR government forcing CX to comply with the law.
Wrong. Under contract law, the terms of a contract can be made null and void by a change in government legislation. And when the law does change it won’t be CX forcing anything. It will be the SAR government forcing CX to comply with the law.
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AOA
Slappa. If our membership is made up of people like the ones you talk about then no wonder we are introuble and no wonder the AOA have been in your eyes inneffective. I know there will be people like the ones you talk about, however these are the same people who wont lift a finger to help. The AOA know this and hence their limited ability to give a call to arms, even less ability to go to the company demanding things!!!
As for 65. If they implement it, they have to keep paying the salaries, ie A scales...they dont want that, otherwise they would have done it by now!! They will be trying for a reduction in A scales beyond 55!!
As for 65. If they implement it, they have to keep paying the salaries, ie A scales...they dont want that, otherwise they would have done it by now!! They will be trying for a reduction in A scales beyond 55!!
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For all those bleating and blarting about how tewwibwy tewibbwy difficult it is for us poor aircrew to form an effective association/union/knitting circle against those absolutely HOWWID colonial swire people perhaps we could look to....THE FLIGHT ATTENDANTS UNION whose leadership and membership have more balls than any of us wotaboutthemortgageindiscobay/thekidsatschool/thehouseinthephillipines gutless wonders will ever have.....
Thread Starter
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The Pilot Shortage
"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."
Pilot shortage may be affecting flight safety
By Slobodan Lekic
The Associated Press
BRUSSELS, Belgium — As the Garuda Indonesia Boeing 737 approached Yogyakarta's main airport, veteran Capt. Marwoto Komar instructed his rookie co-pilot to extend the flaps to slow the plane for landing.
Seconds later, the Boeing slammed into the runway at double the normal landing speed, careened into a rice paddy and caught fire — killing 21 people. Initial findings from the probe into the March 7 crash suggest a misunderstanding between the pilot and his first officer may have contributed to the crash.
Analysts say such apparent miscues are a troubling sign that a worldwide shortage of experienced pilots is starting to affect flight safety.
The shortage is the result of extraordinary air traffic growth in the Persian Gulf, China and India; the rise of lucrative low-cost carriers in Europe and Asia; and the sustained recovery of the U.S. airlines from the industry recession caused by the Sept. 11 attacks.
"There is a giant sucking sound, luring pilots to rapidly expanding airlines such as Emirates and Qatar and the budget carriers," said William Voss, head of the Flight Safety Foundation. When experienced pilots leave developing countries in Asia and Africa for the Gulf, those countries must hire replacements fresh out of flight school, he said.
And poaching of pilots and mechanics is expected to intensify as Asian markets like China and India burgeon.
Around Asia, flyers from national airlines such as Garuda have deserted for better paying jobs with new and successful budget carriers, such as Malaysia's AirAsia. In Europe, Belgium's largest carrier Brussels Airlines recently complained of losing an average of 10 captains a month to pilot-hungry airlines in the Gulf, and have requested government intervention.
In the United States, where thousands of veterans were laid off after Sept. 11 and left the industry, regional carriers have been giving jobs to first officers with considerably less experience than would have been required 15 years ago.
At some airlines, such as Northwest Airlines, pilot shortages have led to record-breaking flight cancellations in recent months. In the last full week of June, it canceled about 1,200 flights, or about 12 percent of its flight schedule, because it could not provide sufficient pilots to replace those who were grounded after reaching maximum allowed hours.
After that, the airline said it would continue recalling all of its furloughed pilots and hire additional pilots.
Figures released by International Air Transport Association show that global air travel will likely grow 4 to 5 percent a year over the next decade, though the aviation boom in India and China is expected to exceed 7 percent.
The Persian Gulf, the fastest growing region for both passengers and cargo, registered growth of 15.4 and 16.1 percent respectively in 2006. Reflecting this expansion, in the first half of this year Boeing and Airbus received a joint total of 1,100 new orders.
advertising
"Airlines such as Emirates, Qatar or Etihad are getting a new Airbus 330 or Boeing 777 each month, which means they also need to take in pilots at a phenomenal rate," said Gideon Ewers, a spokesman for the London-based, 105,000-member International Association of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA).
India and China alone will need about 4,000 new pilots a year to cope with their growth — the same number now employed by Germany's Lufthansa. Airlines need 30 highly trained pilots available on average for each long-haul aircraft in their fleet, or 10 to 18 for short-haul planes.
Traditionally, new pilots come up through flight training academies with a strict regimen of classroom training and 50 to 60 hours flying for a Private Pilots License. It takes another 250 hours flying plus a battery of tests for a Commercial Pilots License, which allows the pilot to fly on instruments, rather than only visually, and on airliners with more than one engine. A total of 1,500 hours of flight time are required for a license to co-pilot a commercial jet.
According to the latest available figures, there are 1.2 million pilots worldwide, but just 14 percent have the professional Airline Transport Pilots License.
Paradoxically, flight schools now complain they are understaffed as instructors get hired by regional carriers who have lost pilots to expanding airlines.
In an effort to retain experienced pilots, aviation authorities in some nations — including the United States — are considering extending the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 years.
"It makes no sense to force experienced, qualified and healthy pilots to retire while airlines are scrambling to fill those seats," Voss said.
Other airlines and government regulators plan to moderate their standards, allowing new graduates to co-pilot with experienced captains. But this places greater stress on the command pilot who must fly multiple segments while monitoring a copilot's performance.
"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."
The London-based International Airline Passengers Association said in a statement it cannot tolerate lowering safety standards and is campaigning for global safety regulation so all airlines meet the same criteria.
The critical shortfall has led the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization to introduce a shortcut — the Multi-Crew Pilot License — where a trainee, supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet within 45 weeks, about what it takes to obtain a driving license in most European countries.
Some pilots' associations have expressed concern that such quick-fix training schemes, where candidates don't accrue any solo flying, ignore the broader safety issues.
"Although all airline pilots are trained to the same standards ... there are certain intangibles that only come from experience," said Patrick Smith, a U.S.-based airline pilot and aviation writer. "The idea of some kid flying a 737 around Africa with 300 hours of total time is a bit scary."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ortaage18.html
Pilot shortage may be affecting flight safety
By Slobodan Lekic
The Associated Press
BRUSSELS, Belgium — As the Garuda Indonesia Boeing 737 approached Yogyakarta's main airport, veteran Capt. Marwoto Komar instructed his rookie co-pilot to extend the flaps to slow the plane for landing.
Seconds later, the Boeing slammed into the runway at double the normal landing speed, careened into a rice paddy and caught fire — killing 21 people. Initial findings from the probe into the March 7 crash suggest a misunderstanding between the pilot and his first officer may have contributed to the crash.
Analysts say such apparent miscues are a troubling sign that a worldwide shortage of experienced pilots is starting to affect flight safety.
The shortage is the result of extraordinary air traffic growth in the Persian Gulf, China and India; the rise of lucrative low-cost carriers in Europe and Asia; and the sustained recovery of the U.S. airlines from the industry recession caused by the Sept. 11 attacks.
"There is a giant sucking sound, luring pilots to rapidly expanding airlines such as Emirates and Qatar and the budget carriers," said William Voss, head of the Flight Safety Foundation. When experienced pilots leave developing countries in Asia and Africa for the Gulf, those countries must hire replacements fresh out of flight school, he said.
And poaching of pilots and mechanics is expected to intensify as Asian markets like China and India burgeon.
Around Asia, flyers from national airlines such as Garuda have deserted for better paying jobs with new and successful budget carriers, such as Malaysia's AirAsia. In Europe, Belgium's largest carrier Brussels Airlines recently complained of losing an average of 10 captains a month to pilot-hungry airlines in the Gulf, and have requested government intervention.
In the United States, where thousands of veterans were laid off after Sept. 11 and left the industry, regional carriers have been giving jobs to first officers with considerably less experience than would have been required 15 years ago.
At some airlines, such as Northwest Airlines, pilot shortages have led to record-breaking flight cancellations in recent months. In the last full week of June, it canceled about 1,200 flights, or about 12 percent of its flight schedule, because it could not provide sufficient pilots to replace those who were grounded after reaching maximum allowed hours.
After that, the airline said it would continue recalling all of its furloughed pilots and hire additional pilots.
Figures released by International Air Transport Association show that global air travel will likely grow 4 to 5 percent a year over the next decade, though the aviation boom in India and China is expected to exceed 7 percent.
The Persian Gulf, the fastest growing region for both passengers and cargo, registered growth of 15.4 and 16.1 percent respectively in 2006. Reflecting this expansion, in the first half of this year Boeing and Airbus received a joint total of 1,100 new orders.
advertising
"Airlines such as Emirates, Qatar or Etihad are getting a new Airbus 330 or Boeing 777 each month, which means they also need to take in pilots at a phenomenal rate," said Gideon Ewers, a spokesman for the London-based, 105,000-member International Association of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA).
India and China alone will need about 4,000 new pilots a year to cope with their growth — the same number now employed by Germany's Lufthansa. Airlines need 30 highly trained pilots available on average for each long-haul aircraft in their fleet, or 10 to 18 for short-haul planes.
Traditionally, new pilots come up through flight training academies with a strict regimen of classroom training and 50 to 60 hours flying for a Private Pilots License. It takes another 250 hours flying plus a battery of tests for a Commercial Pilots License, which allows the pilot to fly on instruments, rather than only visually, and on airliners with more than one engine. A total of 1,500 hours of flight time are required for a license to co-pilot a commercial jet.
According to the latest available figures, there are 1.2 million pilots worldwide, but just 14 percent have the professional Airline Transport Pilots License.
Paradoxically, flight schools now complain they are understaffed as instructors get hired by regional carriers who have lost pilots to expanding airlines.
In an effort to retain experienced pilots, aviation authorities in some nations — including the United States — are considering extending the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 years.
"It makes no sense to force experienced, qualified and healthy pilots to retire while airlines are scrambling to fill those seats," Voss said.
Other airlines and government regulators plan to moderate their standards, allowing new graduates to co-pilot with experienced captains. But this places greater stress on the command pilot who must fly multiple segments while monitoring a copilot's performance.
"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."
The London-based International Airline Passengers Association said in a statement it cannot tolerate lowering safety standards and is campaigning for global safety regulation so all airlines meet the same criteria.
The critical shortfall has led the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization to introduce a shortcut — the Multi-Crew Pilot License — where a trainee, supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet within 45 weeks, about what it takes to obtain a driving license in most European countries.
Some pilots' associations have expressed concern that such quick-fix training schemes, where candidates don't accrue any solo flying, ignore the broader safety issues.
"Although all airline pilots are trained to the same standards ... there are certain intangibles that only come from experience," said Patrick Smith, a U.S.-based airline pilot and aviation writer. "The idea of some kid flying a 737 around Africa with 300 hours of total time is a bit scary."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ortaage18.html
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A reasonable result
I think you are all terribly pessimistic.
This pay deal has to cover us for losses since the last payrise in Jul01. If it is a 2 year deal, it will need to cover us from Jul 01 - Jul 09. That is an 8 year period.
We should reasonably expect recompense for inflation and exchange rate losses. That would lead to a 30-40% payrise.
And of course if they want to introduce a later retirement age, then they will have to recompense all the FOs and SOs for the career loss of earnings when they reach 55. I am sure they will look after the career path and career earnings losses due to CX's desire to have RA60/65.
Who knows, they may decide to upgrade the increments for CNs from less than 2% to 3% like Emirates do. A mate of mine in CX is on $98K per month and he has been here for 11 years. An EK mate has been there 11 years and he gets $105K(HKD) tax free. SO he earns more than the CX friend before tax, after tax he earns $20K a month more than the equivalent CX CN. ANd because of EK 3% increments, the EK guy's earninigs accelerates away from our CX friend!
So all around, there should be money flying everywhere. They will be very concerned with the effects of DEFOs on SOs, they will be concerned with career earnings potential for FOs and SOs due to higher RA.
This pay deal has to cover us for losses since the last payrise in Jul01. If it is a 2 year deal, it will need to cover us from Jul 01 - Jul 09. That is an 8 year period.
We should reasonably expect recompense for inflation and exchange rate losses. That would lead to a 30-40% payrise.
And of course if they want to introduce a later retirement age, then they will have to recompense all the FOs and SOs for the career loss of earnings when they reach 55. I am sure they will look after the career path and career earnings losses due to CX's desire to have RA60/65.
Who knows, they may decide to upgrade the increments for CNs from less than 2% to 3% like Emirates do. A mate of mine in CX is on $98K per month and he has been here for 11 years. An EK mate has been there 11 years and he gets $105K(HKD) tax free. SO he earns more than the CX friend before tax, after tax he earns $20K a month more than the equivalent CX CN. ANd because of EK 3% increments, the EK guy's earninigs accelerates away from our CX friend!
So all around, there should be money flying everywhere. They will be very concerned with the effects of DEFOs on SOs, they will be concerned with career earnings potential for FOs and SOs due to higher RA.
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We shall all get what the market tells us we should get!!. Unfortunately we pilots at Cathay are still paid well when compaired to the other airlines around us. It is not a bad package we are on. I dont think we will get a payrise - though I do belive we deserve it, but thats just not a good enough reason and it does not work well when presented in negotiations. No, if you want a payrise you got to go and get that yourself - leave for somewhere, where you can actually get a payrise. Now where would that be? EK - starting a the bottom of the list!!?? haha.. Makes me laugh..
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chairman - sounding a bit like a third floor plant there dear boy !!! actually Emirates are offering Direct Entry Captain .................so no waiting at the bottom of the list, also you can work till 65 and get an increment every year rather than being stripped of provvy contribution etc etc after 55 so for anyone approaching 55 looks like a pretty good deal rather than transfer to the joys of freighter flying..........................
Also, Oasis will be taking more DEC's shortly ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I certainly can't see an improvement on A scale coming but if they don't do something for B and an awful lot for the freighter.........................who is going to fly all those nice new aerplanes?? forget that, who is going to fly all the ones they have now???
Also, Oasis will be taking more DEC's shortly ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I certainly can't see an improvement on A scale coming but if they don't do something for B and an awful lot for the freighter.........................who is going to fly all those nice new aerplanes?? forget that, who is going to fly all the ones they have now???