Update on pay negotiations
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Update on pay negotiations
Everything the company currently does is aimed at alleviating the current pilot shortage. And everything the company says is aimed at convincing us that there isn't a shortage.
A little history lesson....
Up until a few years ago the 747-400 used to have two crewrest "love seats" at the front of the upper deck. They were screened off from the rest of the cabin. A couple of years back management progressively removed the screens, although they assured us at the time that there would be no other changes to the rest seats. That was until they began to sell them on the short haul flights to increase revenue. No problem, we still had them for the ULH flights. Right up until now. With the new ULH business class product we now only have one crew rest seat. The idea was sold to us that there would be an economy seat reserved for the junior crew to take their rest in, but so far there has been no such thing. So, with a few small changes made over time the company got their way, at our expense.
Why your salary is about to be reduced in a tradeoff for higher Hourly Duty Pay:
Several years ago, Hourly Duty Pay (HDP) was introduced, apparently as an extra payment at the time. Most of us didn't miss the point that it was not made provident fundable. At present it forms a relatively small part of our overall pay. The problem with normal salaries is that during a downturn, or when pilots are being accrued for a fleet expansion, the productivity decreases, however the salary cost doesn't. Salaries, including holiday pay and provident fund contribution are all paid at the normal rate. It was "sold" to us (and lets face it, as an extra pay component it didn't take much selling) as a pay incentive to encourage and reward those who worked more - thereby perhaps cutting down on sickleave etc. But what is in it for the company and why the need to introduce an duty pay component ?
There is a high chance that over the next few years the component of hourly duty pay will increase as a result of negotiated pay rises, in lieu of an increase in basic salary. Take a situation in the future where only 50% of our normal paycheck is salary, and the rest is HDP. During a downturn when pilots are rostered to fly say only 25% of their usual monthly hours, their total monthly pay will only be around 63% of the usual monthly pay. It still leaves the company the ability to roster and pay overtime during an expansion, along with the ability to cut right back on pay during a downturn. And the HDP is not provident fundable, so it's a very effective way of subtly reducing provident fund contributions without negotiating it.
And many of you will also remember the not so subtle change, to make the housing allowance taxable a couple of years ago. It is now classed as part of your monthly pay, and called "salary". And for good reason. Given sufficient time for our memories to dull, it will gradually have the "housing allowance" designation removed completely, leaving the way clear to merge it with both hourly duty pay and basic salary.
How the company will offset the costs of a payrise:
The company have made their intent clear to introduce age 65 retirement. They have denied that they aim to introduce 3 man ULH, but this flies in the face of their recent proposal to CAD for 3 crew ULH, so we need to realise that it's simply a matter of "WHEN", not "IF". You see, 3 crew ULH is an easy one for them. If they put it to the vote, there are many pilots who will vote for it in return for an increase in the HDP payments. Anyone who currently flies 2 crew (B777 and A330) or 3 crew (B777 and A330 and Freighter) will be very likely to vote for an increase in HDP in return for 3 crew ULH - simply because there is no downside to them - they are already operating 3 crew anyway.
Everything the company currently does is aimed at alleviating the current pilot shortage. And everything the company says is aimed at convincing us that there isn't a shortage.
A little history lesson....
Up until a few years ago the 747-400 used to have two crewrest "love seats" at the front of the upper deck. They were screened off from the rest of the cabin. A couple of years back management progressively removed the screens, although they assured us at the time that there would be no other changes to the rest seats. That was until they began to sell them on the short haul flights to increase revenue. No problem, we still had them for the ULH flights. Right up until now. With the new ULH business class product we now only have one crew rest seat. The idea was sold to us that there would be an economy seat reserved for the junior crew to take their rest in, but so far there has been no such thing. So, with a few small changes made over time the company got their way, at our expense.
Why your salary is about to be reduced in a tradeoff for higher Hourly Duty Pay:
Several years ago, Hourly Duty Pay (HDP) was introduced, apparently as an extra payment at the time. Most of us didn't miss the point that it was not made provident fundable. At present it forms a relatively small part of our overall pay. The problem with normal salaries is that during a downturn, or when pilots are being accrued for a fleet expansion, the productivity decreases, however the salary cost doesn't. Salaries, including holiday pay and provident fund contribution are all paid at the normal rate. It was "sold" to us (and lets face it, as an extra pay component it didn't take much selling) as a pay incentive to encourage and reward those who worked more - thereby perhaps cutting down on sickleave etc. But what is in it for the company and why the need to introduce an duty pay component ?
There is a high chance that over the next few years the component of hourly duty pay will increase as a result of negotiated pay rises, in lieu of an increase in basic salary. Take a situation in the future where only 50% of our normal paycheck is salary, and the rest is HDP. During a downturn when pilots are rostered to fly say only 25% of their usual monthly hours, their total monthly pay will only be around 63% of the usual monthly pay. It still leaves the company the ability to roster and pay overtime during an expansion, along with the ability to cut right back on pay during a downturn. And the HDP is not provident fundable, so it's a very effective way of subtly reducing provident fund contributions without negotiating it.
And many of you will also remember the not so subtle change, to make the housing allowance taxable a couple of years ago. It is now classed as part of your monthly pay, and called "salary". And for good reason. Given sufficient time for our memories to dull, it will gradually have the "housing allowance" designation removed completely, leaving the way clear to merge it with both hourly duty pay and basic salary.
How the company will offset the costs of a payrise:
The company have made their intent clear to introduce age 65 retirement. They have denied that they aim to introduce 3 man ULH, but this flies in the face of their recent proposal to CAD for 3 crew ULH, so we need to realise that it's simply a matter of "WHEN", not "IF". You see, 3 crew ULH is an easy one for them. If they put it to the vote, there are many pilots who will vote for it in return for an increase in the HDP payments. Anyone who currently flies 2 crew (B777 and A330) or 3 crew (B777 and A330 and Freighter) will be very likely to vote for an increase in HDP in return for 3 crew ULH - simply because there is no downside to them - they are already operating 3 crew anyway.
Everything the company currently does is aimed at alleviating the current pilot shortage. And everything the company says is aimed at convincing us that there isn't a shortage.
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You really believe you deserve a pay rise. Well sorry to disappoint you but it is not going to happen. We will offer a low single digit pay rise for double digit productivity gain and other items we want in your COS.
As with Dragonair (which is part of the Cathay Pacific Group) you will only received a single digit increase in pay. We may have to address the DEFO Freighter positions (we will incorporate this in the new contract you accept with merged First Officer pay) but a pay rise for the rest of the group is preposterous. Why will The Cathay Pacific Group give more money for less productivity? Every year a pilot works here, they receive an increase in pay i.e. annual payscales.
We will endeavor to crew the Freighter fleet (Temporary basings in North America, many Captains still volunteering and many more First Officers). It has been done in the past and will be done in the future. The new contract will have all voluntary freighter flying removed from the contract. This will enable us to roster any pilot for freighter duties (in accordance with the freighter rostering practices of course). You will lose your contractual right “not to fly the freighter”.
We have just received an AFTL variance for our London Flight with no or very little consultation with the AOA. Who runs the show here in HK? We have to consult the pilot group but we chose to ignore it at your peril. You are pathetic. You cannot even police your own policies.
Retirement age is not a massive issue. We will continue of offer extensions to suitable candidates (on lower than existing conditions) beyond the age of 55 which will help out with our training task. This may slow upgrades but you should be proud to fly “The Cathay Pacific Group” aircraft what ever position you hold.
Hourly Duty Paid will be introduced and as expected it will pass. Possibly not the first time but with the proper propaganda in place it will the second time. Pilots can not see into the future and what does not affect them now, will affect them later in their career. The pilots can not see this. A small pay rise for substantial productivity, which is our campaign.
Our 744F, 777 and 330/340 now operate 3 crew to various destinations, so 3 pilot operations will be no different. Most will never operate the 744P fleet and we will pit many against one. As you know it works well. The CAD is close to giving controlled rest in seats with the introduction of 3 pilot ULH under 15 hours scheduled flight time.
Will the pilot group go on strike, contract compliance, sickout, absenteeism, wear unhappy faces on their ties, etc? I think not. We will not hesitate to terminate contracts en masse to keep the pilots submissive.
Will the pilots leave? A few lower ranking pilots may leave but The Cathay Pacific Group still offers the best contract in Asia. Many can not leave due to seniority issues with other airlines and/or are too old to start at the bottom, some are too young for other contract jobs due to time away, others are on better packages than others and won’t leave, so we have you just where we like.
The HKCAD is made up of Business People and will endeavor to rule in favor of “The Cathay Pacific Group” with regard to the upcoming AFTL talks. In the meantime, they will issue variations to the AFTL’s that we request.
You are weak, the pilot group is weak, which makes your AOA weak and we will do what we want.
You do not realize the POWER of the “Cathay Pacific Group”.
Good fortune in finding greener pastures.
Here is to my bonus.
The Management
As with Dragonair (which is part of the Cathay Pacific Group) you will only received a single digit increase in pay. We may have to address the DEFO Freighter positions (we will incorporate this in the new contract you accept with merged First Officer pay) but a pay rise for the rest of the group is preposterous. Why will The Cathay Pacific Group give more money for less productivity? Every year a pilot works here, they receive an increase in pay i.e. annual payscales.
We will endeavor to crew the Freighter fleet (Temporary basings in North America, many Captains still volunteering and many more First Officers). It has been done in the past and will be done in the future. The new contract will have all voluntary freighter flying removed from the contract. This will enable us to roster any pilot for freighter duties (in accordance with the freighter rostering practices of course). You will lose your contractual right “not to fly the freighter”.
We have just received an AFTL variance for our London Flight with no or very little consultation with the AOA. Who runs the show here in HK? We have to consult the pilot group but we chose to ignore it at your peril. You are pathetic. You cannot even police your own policies.
Retirement age is not a massive issue. We will continue of offer extensions to suitable candidates (on lower than existing conditions) beyond the age of 55 which will help out with our training task. This may slow upgrades but you should be proud to fly “The Cathay Pacific Group” aircraft what ever position you hold.
Hourly Duty Paid will be introduced and as expected it will pass. Possibly not the first time but with the proper propaganda in place it will the second time. Pilots can not see into the future and what does not affect them now, will affect them later in their career. The pilots can not see this. A small pay rise for substantial productivity, which is our campaign.
Our 744F, 777 and 330/340 now operate 3 crew to various destinations, so 3 pilot operations will be no different. Most will never operate the 744P fleet and we will pit many against one. As you know it works well. The CAD is close to giving controlled rest in seats with the introduction of 3 pilot ULH under 15 hours scheduled flight time.
Will the pilot group go on strike, contract compliance, sickout, absenteeism, wear unhappy faces on their ties, etc? I think not. We will not hesitate to terminate contracts en masse to keep the pilots submissive.
Will the pilots leave? A few lower ranking pilots may leave but The Cathay Pacific Group still offers the best contract in Asia. Many can not leave due to seniority issues with other airlines and/or are too old to start at the bottom, some are too young for other contract jobs due to time away, others are on better packages than others and won’t leave, so we have you just where we like.
The HKCAD is made up of Business People and will endeavor to rule in favor of “The Cathay Pacific Group” with regard to the upcoming AFTL talks. In the meantime, they will issue variations to the AFTL’s that we request.
You are weak, the pilot group is weak, which makes your AOA weak and we will do what we want.
You do not realize the POWER of the “Cathay Pacific Group”.
Good fortune in finding greener pastures.
Here is to my bonus.
The Management
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Blunderbus, I know sq did the 2 crew thing to the US some time ago and got away with it but have heard the FAA came down on them big time and threatened revoking their approvals to fly to US unless they met mandated US crewing requirements
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"but as you are aware we believe that the recent HKAOA notice regarding the integration of both passenger and freighter aircraft was a small step in the wrong direction and it has not made it any easier for us to promote the benefits of union membership with enthusiasm. I am sure hower that this is only a temporary set back
N P Rhodes Director Flight
Operations"
Ah, the Union should be sending a letter back to Mr. Rhodes explaining that it is not a temporary setback. Something explaining to him that the basic purpose of the Union is to look after the membership, not to cater to the Company. If the Company also looks after its employees, then the relationship with the Union will be good. It is that simple.
As far as negotiations....from the tone of the Union update I think I'm gonna update my logbook and start filling out applications yet again....
N P Rhodes Director Flight
Operations"
Ah, the Union should be sending a letter back to Mr. Rhodes explaining that it is not a temporary setback. Something explaining to him that the basic purpose of the Union is to look after the membership, not to cater to the Company. If the Company also looks after its employees, then the relationship with the Union will be good. It is that simple.
As far as negotiations....from the tone of the Union update I think I'm gonna update my logbook and start filling out applications yet again....
Me too
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Follow up for new joiners
I guess the point to remember is that conditions and pay are not what they used to be, and if you project into the future - well, it's not a particularly rosy picture, as conditions are slowly whittled away, and pay is slowly overtaken by inflation. B scale pay was a large cut from A scale, and there have no B scale pay rises for at least 6 years.
As an employee, it is simply another company - the glory days are long gone - and many pilots now treat CX as a stepping stone. In this regard it can be a good step. They will give you a 747-400 rating and a North American base, and after 2-3 years you will have 1000+ of heavy jet time. You will work hard, and spend long trips away from home with many last minute roster changes. Go into it with your eyes open, and enjoy it for what it is.
If you are contemplating joining as a second officer, again, keep you eyes open. You'll be given a type rating, and alot of travel. The Hong Kong experience is what you want to make of it, and can be alot of fun. You will start on enough pay to support a single person in a small apartment, and it will afford you enough for standby travel on your days off. If you want to bring a family with you, then you will need some savings to get through the first few years, particularly with children. The starting housing allowance will pay for a small (+/- 700 sq/ft) apartment.
But Hong Kong will not make you rich, certainly no more so than your own home country will. That is to say that if you were going to make millions, then you would already be doing so in your home country. It would be wearing rose coloured glasses to assume that a position in HK is the opportunity that it once was. Compared to airline pay here in the 1980's you are now paid a small fraction of the purchasing power, and you will earn every cent of it.
As an employee, it is simply another company - the glory days are long gone - and many pilots now treat CX as a stepping stone. In this regard it can be a good step. They will give you a 747-400 rating and a North American base, and after 2-3 years you will have 1000+ of heavy jet time. You will work hard, and spend long trips away from home with many last minute roster changes. Go into it with your eyes open, and enjoy it for what it is.
If you are contemplating joining as a second officer, again, keep you eyes open. You'll be given a type rating, and alot of travel. The Hong Kong experience is what you want to make of it, and can be alot of fun. You will start on enough pay to support a single person in a small apartment, and it will afford you enough for standby travel on your days off. If you want to bring a family with you, then you will need some savings to get through the first few years, particularly with children. The starting housing allowance will pay for a small (+/- 700 sq/ft) apartment.
But Hong Kong will not make you rich, certainly no more so than your own home country will. That is to say that if you were going to make millions, then you would already be doing so in your home country. It would be wearing rose coloured glasses to assume that a position in HK is the opportunity that it once was. Compared to airline pay here in the 1980's you are now paid a small fraction of the purchasing power, and you will earn every cent of it.
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Not looking good
I was rather optimistic that the company would look at the "big picture" and realise that a substantial pay increase was needed to keep the overall package attractive. Naive!
I thought that we are Cathay Pacific! We only recruit the best! Not anymore I dare say - you pay peanuts ........
The tone in the union update certainly doesn't sound too positive. I wait with baited breath to see how many walk out the door if this is the case.
Sad, sad times if that is where we are heading!
W2
I thought that we are Cathay Pacific! We only recruit the best! Not anymore I dare say - you pay peanuts ........
The tone in the union update certainly doesn't sound too positive. I wait with baited breath to see how many walk out the door if this is the case.
Sad, sad times if that is where we are heading!
W2
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mmm, latest update, the freighter is suddenly doing Delhi-London and delhi-Paris, with 2 man crew.....................course they are not short of Pilots, they just say they can give a better block of days off after trip like this.............................
What a load of Bollox.................
still, if they think they are short now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
What a load of Bollox.................
still, if they think they are short now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Quote: still, if they think they are short now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I am reliably informed the next batch of interviews for freight dawgs wanting to have a bash at SLF are taking place at the TC Job Centre. The Oz routes, in prospect, are probably driving that.
I am reliably informed the next batch of interviews for freight dawgs wanting to have a bash at SLF are taking place at the TC Job Centre. The Oz routes, in prospect, are probably driving that.
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United will begin taking applications electronically at midnight Monday. First classes planned for about 60 days from now - they plan about 100 this year and 300 next year according to the brief I listened to yesterday at DENTK.
Things have definitely changed - no simulator ride or pre-employment major medical etc. The thinking is that a simulator ride did not really prove or disprove anything if the previous screening out was done correctly. You have a year of probation following the crushingly time compressed time at DENTK to strut your stuff.
The application page will go live Monday - they will wait three days and then start to process qualififed applicants.
The process will involve a series of electronic screening tests, a phone interview to verify qualifications (??!), a personal interview conducted in Chicago with a UAL interview Captain and HR representative. You will be scored on all that and then the company will conduct a final screening board (applicant NOT invited) to determine the final selection.
From the web site -
Needed -
1500 hours Total Time - Fixed Wing.
1000 hours Multi-engine time (PIC) or Military fighter/trainer (PIC).
500 hours Turbine Time.
100 hours flown in the past year (Recency of experience).
Current FCC license.
Current valid passport.
Current First Class Medical.
Current ATP Certificate with Multi-engine land rating (AMEL).
High school diploma or GED equivalent.
Legal right to work in the United States.
A college degree from an accredited school is preferred.
Things have definitely changed - no simulator ride or pre-employment major medical etc. The thinking is that a simulator ride did not really prove or disprove anything if the previous screening out was done correctly. You have a year of probation following the crushingly time compressed time at DENTK to strut your stuff.
The application page will go live Monday - they will wait three days and then start to process qualififed applicants.
The process will involve a series of electronic screening tests, a phone interview to verify qualifications (??!), a personal interview conducted in Chicago with a UAL interview Captain and HR representative. You will be scored on all that and then the company will conduct a final screening board (applicant NOT invited) to determine the final selection.
From the web site -
Needed -
1500 hours Total Time - Fixed Wing.
1000 hours Multi-engine time (PIC) or Military fighter/trainer (PIC).
500 hours Turbine Time.
100 hours flown in the past year (Recency of experience).
Current FCC license.
Current valid passport.
Current First Class Medical.
Current ATP Certificate with Multi-engine land rating (AMEL).
High school diploma or GED equivalent.
Legal right to work in the United States.
A college degree from an accredited school is preferred.
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Long list of 3rd class citizens (Oooops sory Freighter Captains) with Oasis. I have just been talking to them and they have just bought 6 more 744's from SQ and their own simulator. The many 3rd Class Citizens at CX (Frt Cn's) will wait till the outcome of the negotiations is announced and then make their minds up
But...........If the pay raise don't cut it.............................
I don't think flying the freighter will be optional any more, you'll either fly it or it won't go anywhere.........................for sure if the pay rise is an insult they'll lose another 20 or so, either to Oasis or those on recall to the US etc etc
But...........If the pay raise don't cut it.............................
I don't think flying the freighter will be optional any more, you'll either fly it or it won't go anywhere.........................for sure if the pay rise is an insult they'll lose another 20 or so, either to Oasis or those on recall to the US etc etc
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Sizematters,
considering this payrise will be covering the period Jul 01 to Jul 10 we can safely assume a payrise of at least 30%+ just to recover from inflation(bases) and exchange rate losses(hkg).
I wouldn't expect them to match the 41% that EK have increased their pay over the last 5 years - that would be asking too much.
So don't jump ship just yet...big payrises may just be around the corner!
considering this payrise will be covering the period Jul 01 to Jul 10 we can safely assume a payrise of at least 30%+ just to recover from inflation(bases) and exchange rate losses(hkg).
I wouldn't expect them to match the 41% that EK have increased their pay over the last 5 years - that would be asking too much.
So don't jump ship just yet...big payrises may just be around the corner!
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That was ash from the coal burning factories to the north.
Yup, as a member of the AOA I am greatly concerned about these pay negotiations.
Why is the AOA being so damn nice?
1) Why not even one reminder to not answer your phone on G days, let alone volunteer to work one?
2) Why not remind mainline folks, who joined prior to 2002(?), that not only are they NOT required to fly the freighter, but that it hurts the ENTIRE pilot group's leaverage when they do so.
These two item are not combative/militant whatsoever, they represent nothing more than adhering to our COS.
Yup, as a member of the AOA I am greatly concerned about these pay negotiations.
Why is the AOA being so damn nice?
1) Why not even one reminder to not answer your phone on G days, let alone volunteer to work one?
2) Why not remind mainline folks, who joined prior to 2002(?), that not only are they NOT required to fly the freighter, but that it hurts the ENTIRE pilot group's leaverage when they do so.
These two item are not combative/militant whatsoever, they represent nothing more than adhering to our COS.
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SAA 744's
This from the African Forum:
Thought CX might grab these. Guess it's true that we don't have the crews. The fact that almost everyone I know is in overtime every month is another clue!
W2
Yep I heard the same..as SAA starts to phase them out then Oasis will start taking them over. This will mean Oasis' fleet will move to 11 747-400's and the simulator is also going to HKG as well!
W2