Update on pay negotiations

[ChairmanBoysClub]

Nick is sleeping just fine these days. We will never wake up to see any Cathay aeroplanes parked due to any kind of shortage. If you think otherwise - you shall be educated. Happy overtime flying - until that gets changed like its being done over at KA.

[newbie1972]

Well, with the 15% (or more) productivity improvement CX has gotten out of the pilots since the new rostering practices were brought in, anything less than a 15% payrise is a win for CX. I take it the union has looked at those figures to see whether the average increase is in fact 15% (or more)????

Have they communicated these figures to you? Or are they working on rumours and hearsay to hint at a pathetic payrise (expectation management)????

[Mr. Bloggs]

Look back in the DFO updates or in CX World. He has been quoted, if my memory is correct, there have been approximately 20-25% productivity in the passenger and just short of 50% on the freighter increase in productivity due to rostering practices, all due to 5-4-3 rule gone, free reserve, FDP not starting after 4 hours on reserve, and whatever in the hell else you guys gave away. I know I surely didn’t.

Damn, most of the CX pilots are idiots. Lucky if we get a 2% pay rise and there will be increase productivity for that increase by more than 2%. They want 65 RA, merged F/O pay scale, freighter flying for all on the crappy freighter rostering practices. This group is absolutely ridiculous, the pilots I mean.

Mean while every one still answers the phone on G days or whatever. Captains are the worst. How many still fly the freighter? If I were a Freighter Pilot, I would definitely be pissed off if I seen a mainline Capt. flying the freighter or an F/O that did not have to. Taking away my pay rise. If anyone deserves a payrise the freighter guys do.

How many got on ND’s case for not accepting A Scale for all Captains? Because it was not there!!! Ask NR is he willing to give that now. I think not.

Good luck with it, you will need it. Pussies.

[ULRequalsSLEEP]

Sarcasm

Cpdude, I use sarcasm liberally! I expect diddly squat. We deserve huge increases just to recover from inflation and exchange rates but since people aren't leaving they will just ignore our whingeing and what we deserve.

In 1994 Clemmow wrote that since much of our salary went back to our home country, we couldn't expect payrises based on HKG inflation. At the time Anglosaxon inflation was low. Now we are being told that we shouldn't expect a payrise just because inflation is high in our home countries! Its OK for the DFO, he has currency protection in his PF fund. We don't!

CBC - we are better than some, but way behind most of the majors now. BA have averaged payrises of 4%+ a year for years. EK has achieved 41% payrises over the last 5 years. QF have had smaller 3% rises but have improved other CoS items like min daily credit of 5 1/2 hours and higher min guaranteed hours.

We are most definitely slipping. Until a year ago I used to recommend CX. I don't anymore.

By the way CBC, starting at EK now as an FO you will get $56K(HKD) a month tax free starting salary. Allowing for tax, within 3 years you are earning CX SFO 1 level. When you get your command there you earn more than a CN in CX and becuase EK have 3% increments(CX1.8%), the pay differential gets bigger as time goes on.

QF have just announced massive order of 787s. If RA60 comes in, commands will be delayed to QF time spans. May as well tell newbies to take the safer option.If you want $$$ and quick command, EK. If you want to earn more than CX but live in your home country(oz) and don't mind that command will be 12-14 years, QF is the go.

[whodunnit2]

To reinforce Mini coopers sentiments that you need to make money from property to make CX attractive these days.

This from a Pilots Direct advert on this site ("tax free" according to the advert):,
Captain (Airbus 319/320/A321/A330/A340)
$13,738 / month plus benefits and allowances
Requirements: Total minimum hours 6000 (airline time) with at least 2000 hours of jet command.
Valid ICAO license.
Below 57 years of age for type rated applicants.
Permanent positions
Salary $13,738/month Transportation$ 412/month Utility Bills$ 192/month Furniture (One off payment when joining) $ 13,737 Schooling(Annual total for up to 3 children till the age of 21 years) $ 13,737/year Flying allowance$ 33/hour Down route allowance Dependent on destination and paid on a daily basis Medical Insurance:for pilot and family (excludes dental). Staff travel: Full staff travel privileges on all networks for employee and family. Leave ticket:100% free , once a year for employee and family I.e. spouse and children (maximum of three children up to the age of 18 years). First class for Captains and business class for First Officers. On client airline's network. Leave entitlement: 45 days per year on full pay. Medical insurance:Full cover for employee and family in accordance with the rules of the insurer (excludes dental and optical). Monthly hours: 60-80 block hours on average with sector length varying between 45 minutes and 5 hrs 40 minutes (typical A320 rosters). Down route accommodation: 5 star hotel accommodation.
AND for the F/O's
First Officer(Airbus 319/320/A321/A330/A340)
$10,990/month Senior First Officer plus benefits and allowances
Requirements: Total minimum hours 1000 (airline time) or 500 hours if Airbus 319/320/321/330/340 rated.
Valid ICAO ATPL or frozen ICAO ATPL.
Below 45 years of age for type rated applicants.
Permanent positions
Salary $10,990/month ( $10,440/month First Officer) Transportation$ 412/month Utility Bills$ 192/month Furniture (One off payment when joining) $ 13,737 Schooling(Annual total for up to 3 children till the age of 21 years) $ 13,737/year Flying allowance $ 25/hour Down route allowance Dependent on destination and paid on a daily basis Medical Insurance:for pilot and family (excludes dental). Staff travel: Full staff travel privileges on all networks for employee and family. Leave ticket: 100% free , once a year for employee and family i.e. spouse and children (maximum of three children up to the age of 18 years). First class for Captains and business class for First Officers. On client airline's network. Leave entitlement: 45 days per year on full pay. Medical insurance:Full cover for employee and family in accordance with the rules of the insurer (excludes dental and optical). Monthly hours: 60-80 block hours on average with sector length varying between 45 minutes and 5 hrs 40 minutes (typical A320 rosters). Down route accommodation: 5 star hotel accommodation
W2

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Mr Bloggs said
"Captains are the worst. How many still fly the freighter? If I were a Freighter Pilot, I would definitely be pissed off if I seen a mainline Capt. flying the freighter or an F/O that did not have to. Taking away my pay rise. If anyone deserves a payrise the freighter guys do."

That has got to be the biggest crock of sh@t I have read for years. TAKE AWAY MY PAY RISE What a lot of rubbish!! The Freighter Captains get commands in 2 years...Why? because they seriously bypass the seniority system by about 7-8 years, they willingly do it and are not forced to. If they wanted to they could wait and join the passenger fleet after 3 years and have all of the pay and conditions that goes hand in hand with the Pax COS. Those that accept the early commands, know they are doing it for less than PAX FO pay!! and hardly hold the moral high ground in the "who's screwing who" stakes.

In fact the Freighter crew joining the airline and accepting the poor pay has for years cheesed me off, it delayed my command 5 years, took away 5 years of command pay and increments and, not only have we not had a pay rise for 13 or so years we have had pay cuts!. Why because some guys accept the fast commands for crappy pay! and then have the audacity to complain about it and blame the PAX guys.....un blooody believable!!!

If I see a PAX crew member flying a freighter it makes me warm and fuzzy because it confirms to me that Cathay can afford to pay A scale to fly the freighter (and to all of their Capts). There is something like 30 PAX Capts rostered for full freighter rosters this month plus many with freighter flights. The airline is not bleeding to death because of it.

Basically ASL. Cathay Freighters, has been a complete disaster, it has done a complete 360 and ended up with PAX pilots propping it up because as the pilots told CX in 94 ish when it was "invented" it was just going to be training system for 747 endorsements for folks who would take the early command and run. Regretably it has also turned pilot against pilot, just as was predicted when ASL started. I would love to know the total cost of all of the endorsments of those who have failed or resigned over the years, the costs of running separate management teams, all the ill feeling etc etc if it was worth it financially?. Cathays reputation has not exactly been enhanced because of the freighter debacle.

I certainly would have no guilt about flying the freighter if I were on the 744, A scalers flew the freighters 18 years ago and as I said CX can still afford to, and are paying A scale rates to keep the freighters flying right now.

One thing for sure....I am glad I don't have to sort out the mess that Capt O created.

CHEESED CYRIL

[christn]

I understand BA have 5.2% backdated to February!

[Mr. Bloggs]

Two different philosophies on freighter flying.

We all know CX can afford to pay A Scale on the pax and the freighter, but they are not. Just because they can afford it, they will not do it, until they are forced. For example, the B scale Training Captains would not upgrade to STC, so the P-fund contributions went up to 20%. Now we have many STC upgrades.

Me figures if none of these 30 mainline pilots flew the freighter, well the company would have to pay the freighter pilots more, but that is not going to happen is it. If the pax pilots would stop flying it, you may see the freighter flying come back into the fold and you could get your command on mainline pay. If the freighter flying would come back to the fold, we could have B Scale for all F/O’s (pax and freighter), not on this new merged F/O freighter scale they will try to vote through. I am assuming they will introduce a merged Capt’s salary with the merged F/O salary.

You see, if they don’t have the proper amount of pilots for the freighter division, they lose a huge amount of flexibility. If they don’t have this flexibility, they could not crew all the flights (your 30 pilots). What is one to do? CX could bring it back into the fold because they need this flexibility (on better salary, RP and conditions) or CX can get 30 or so pilots to fly until CX/AOA put some clause in our contract. They are now trying to figure out how they are going to get you to fly the freighter for less and it will most likely happen whether you are a mainline pilot or not.

These plots will just prop it up long enough for CX to fix THEIR problem and WE pay for it, no reason to throw money at it, only the small amount we pay the mainline pilots.

I can see at negotiations, all pilots will fly the freighter and will receive freighter pay when doing so, but you will receive a 2% increase in mainline pay for doing so.

Just stop flying the freighter so the negotiation team can have some leverage, but everyone must look after number one, yes.

The freighter pilots are not helping their cause by any means. Record amount of disruption and many continue to go into discretion, according to NR updates. I ask myself why? They have terrible rosters and RP, paid the least, PX’ing all over the world in economy. I can’t understand why they do it.

The freighter pilots can not understand why they don’t get a pay rise or better rosters, but I guess that is why they are freighter pilots.

One thing you and I agree on is that these guys getting early commands are not helping but we all had the opportunity to take these positions and the most senior guy got it. I can only assume they had enough of HK. Win/Win for CX. Paid less on a base.

Now if we only stopped pilots coming on B-Scale……………………………………

[kmagyoyo]

Hey Mr Bloggs, whats the go with the merged F/O pay scale you mentioned? I thought that had been voted down with RP07? Has it made a reappearance in the negotiations and if so is it retrospective ie will based Pax Pilots find themselves on Freighter pay one morning???

[Loopdeloop]

The company have stated that one of the things they want to achieve is a combined payscale for F/O's, but obviously it was voted down the first time as it resulted in a paycut for most. Perhaps if they try one which results in a significant payrise for most then it might get through this time.
No, I'm not holding my breath.....but I am updating my CV.

[Mr. Bloggs]

NR will have a hard time justifying why one pilot in JFK will be hired on the 777 on DEFO mainline pay and another pilot being hired on the 744F out of JFK as DEFO with different pay scales or conditions of service. You bet ya it is being revisited.

As you know being voted down once means nothing with the CX pilots. Same will happen with the LON, AMS, CDG, LAX, SFO and any other place CX has a pax/freighter service.

There are many F/O slots in AUS, NA and EUR for DEFO’s. NR is having a hard time justifying why one of these positions is paid so little.

What will happen is it will be contained in the whole of the COS in where some will receive a pay rise (2%) but in order to accept that 2% there will have to be a F/O merged pay scale ( the poison seed in the cake if you will).

It does not affect the Captains or Senior First Officers, so why not vote for it, it does affect them and they get 2% out of it, the mainline DEFO’s will receive a pay cut but it does not affect the majority of CX pilots, so it will most likely be voted through.

Does B Scale sound familiar…………………………….. Did not affect A Scalers in 94 because they got an 8% pay rise for it. Now they can’t figure out why their conditions are going south.

So a long answer to a short question, yes it is being revisited.

[Loopdeloop]

86.8% voted against it last time so I think some significant improvements will have to be made in order to get it through again this time. This is a very different matter to the RP07 revote (RP07 had more votes for than against the first time so was very close in the first place).
The first DEFO proposal also had no effect on the senior guys, just reduced pay, terms and conditions for the new joiners and junior bods but was still voted down as the pilot body here will no longer accept the thin end of the wedge being driven in by reduced conditions for new joiners, I hope!

[Mr. Bloggs]

Just read the AOA update and it will not be just about pay but a COS package. Trust me, this will contain many poison seeds but depends on who it will affect more. There will be a merged F/O pay scale because Captains and Senior First Officers will vote for it because it doe not affect them and they get a pay rise. It’s going to happen. One must think of ones self first, it’s the CX way. Most can’t see how it will affect the future.

I like this quote “In consideration of all this there is still the overriding fact of what our paymasters are prepared to pay.” Just because they can afford to pay A Scale they will not. They don’t have a need to. The freighter ops is working fine and not many pilots leaving, so why pay more? If pilots would stop going above and beyond the call of duty that could change but that is not going to happen is it. CX do not pay unless they are forced to and they are not forced to.

Not sure if the AOA has a choice but increased retirement age is inevitable. Too bad for the younger pilots.

Now from the DFO:

1) a review of market forces and CX pay scales in HKG and the various Base Areas, 2) a review of retirement age - made more topical by the more stringent legal obligations in the Base Areas, 3) a second opportunity for ASL/ABL crew to join the CX seniority list (which was always the plan if CX retirement age was to increase to age 60 or beyond) and 4) an attempt to seek the AOA's support for a unified pay scale for Passenger and Freighter F/Os on bases (the "DEFO" scale). Next week will hopefully see final proposals from each side and, with any luck, an agreement to be put forward to the AOA membership for a vote later in the summer.

On todays show the top 4 reasons why the CX pilots COS are in danger:

Item 4 from the DFO; here comes you merged pay scale, the poison seed. Lets try again

Item 3 from the DFO; just so you know when the last ASL pilots either leaves or is integrated into CX, the Cathay freighter agreement is no longer in effect. Everyone will have to fly the freighter, the poison seed. All those ASL Captains will be operating the 744 pax aircraft therefore taking commands/Bases away from mainline pilots, again the poison seed.

Item 2 Retirement Age, if it is “more stringent legal obligations in the Base Areas” and it is inevitable, why are they negotiating it? Why just implement it like they usually do.

And the number one item on today’s show is Pay: You get paid more than Royal Nepal Airways.

The whole COS vote will have many poison seeds contained within it. Good luck on your vote and your future.

[rhoshamboe]

I love the guys that volunteer to fly the freighter and them b*itch about getting jerked around....

[Bwatchful]

I think this speaks for itself.

Welcome aboard sonny. You will be employed by CX primarily to fly nice shiny new wide body passenger aircraft. However, we also fly freighter aircraft as well and ................ under a working “Freighter Aircraft Crewing Agreement”, passenger crew can agree to fly these aircraft with other passenger crew or with freighter crew (referred to as “mixed crew flying”) if and when required (by the company). If you want this job, and we know you do, your signature at the bottom of this letter represents notification that you are willing to take part in such freighter operations if necessary. However, this will not affect your salary or benefits.

[bobrun]

What are the views on retirement at 60 or 65?
There seems to be a lot of talk about pay rise and DEFO, but not so much about retirement even though it will have a major impact on career progression.

If the time to command is at about 10 years now, it will possibly be up to 15-20 years in the future. Considering the extra number of years spent as F/O, this more than negates any financial benefits coming from a pay rise. It will have a significant financial impact for any officers below CN in terms of lost revenue. Moreover, F/O reaching the top of the F/O pay scale won’t get any annual pay increments until going for their command, which could be several years away.

The expansion may help alleviate the negative impact of RA60/55, but not significantly. And once the expansion is over and we’ve received all our new aircrafts (in 2-3 yrs only I believe), upgrades will come to a stop as no one will be retiring for another amount of years.

[Numero Crunchero]

Mr Bloggs,
we did not vote in B scales for a 8% pay rise in 1994. We accepted degraded rostering practices and the loss of 2 weeks leave for that 8%.
B scales were introduced on 1 April 1993. We A scalers did nothing to stop it. We never got a payrise for it though.

New FO scales will not cause a paycut to current employees just like B scales did not cause a pay cut to A scales.

bobrun,
at current growth rates a brand new joiner today could expect up to 4 years delay. That assumes every CN extends past 55 and no loss of medicals, death etc.
CX often state that they will grow faster if we had RA65. The rate required to absorb all the 55+ year olds is not really likely. We have 102 aircraft at end of 2006. At end of 2011 we would need around 175 a/c to absorb the 55+ guys, or we would have 139 if we remain on current growth rate.
IN recent history we have roughly 50% command courses for replacement of retirees.

Assuming an accelerated, but realistic growth rate, I would suggest that a new joiner might be delayed around 2 years. Obviously an FO due to start command in Jan08 won't be affected at all, delay wise, so pro rata it in between.

Under that assumption of accelerated growth rate, a new joiner would suffer 1 years loss of earnings, NPV wise, assuming he gets bypass pay and 2-3years if he doesn;t get bypass pay. But the counter argument to that is that he can work another 10 years. You be the judge as to whether that is a 'win' or not.

Clear as mud!?

[Glass Half Empty]

"All those ASL Captains will be operating the 744 pax aircraft therefore taking commands/Bases away from mainline pilots, again the poison seed."

Can't see it happpening, more likely they will operate the 744F as VETA until their seniority number reaches the level for a pax command. That is assuming they come in at the bottom of the list.

[555orange]

All the details and reading on this thread...my opinion is that we need to work on our SOLIDARITY to ensure that the company treats us with respect. I know we lost alot during our last "standoff", but we really need to get back to firm footing when it comes to common goals. I think the biggest thing we need to work on is getting people to join the "association", and when the no's increase, perhaps we can call it a Union. If we had the power to get everyone to walk off the job at one time.....we would be treated with respect. This job is not what it used to be...and the job market is very good right now...so maybe guys would be more willing to stand stronger these days. We cant do it overnight, but I think its something that we can move in this direction to help make some progress! I for one would be willing to risk my job here to make sure we get treated with more respect. I know I can go to several other very good airlines at a moments notice and hardly make much of a lifestyle change and the same goes for everyone. The guys we need to protect the most however are the ones in the sweet spot....those are the once waiting for command shortly. Any thoughts?? Mister chairmanboysclub wannabe can eat his own shorts! We will always be the cornerstone of this airline..and I can tell it bugs him!

[Mr. Bloggs]

NC, If B Scales were not around would CX have come after you like they did in ’99 (sign or be fired and you have two weeks to think about it)? Foolishly the B scales got caught up in it and that was a huge mistake. I know most signed within the first two days after that “Critical Mass” thingy, if it took that long.

Don’t think we need lower pay scales in the company for new joiners even if it does not affect me. We have a DEFO pay scale at this time, the company should adhere to it.

Same with this freighter stuff. They made their bed in 96 with the creation of ASL, now they want ASL in CX. Well they made that bed, so live with it. I particularly don’t want to fly the freighter on those Rostering practices. We may have a chance to change that if we all thought collectively, but what am I thinking?

Do you think it is wise to accept an 8% pay increase now for everything NR wants? I realize 8% of your salary and my salary is not even close. Would you do the same thing today that you did in ’94? I think I know that answer. Would you rather have better rostering and 2 more weeks leave? Look at the mess with rostering since ’94.

I do know how the vote is going to go and I ask myself why I even bother. First COS rejected, second COS is worse than the first, so the first one is voted in out of fear.

Our COS has been getting worse since I joined. The COS seems to change every couple of years and it is not for the better i.e. higher taxes on housing, lower medical, RP 01-04-07, etc. But I do get to request 5 days off in a row with 80 days notice, big win.

Seems the pilots at CX cannot see the forest for the trees and will vote for whatever is put in front of them. Sometimes not the first time, but what NR wants usually gets in. He should be at least a committee member, think there is one spot open for him. Man he knows how to play this group.

So the AOA wants new joiners in the AOA correct? How can you honestly tell a new joiner to come to the AOA and we will protect your interest, the AOA just recommended a pay cut for new joiners and they will have to stay at least another 4 years or more in the right seat. Hello New Joiner, I’m Mr. AOA. We just lowered your pay scale and you have to sit in the right seat longer, please join us, we will protect your future.

Your argument on bypass pay is a joke, CX is playing that one. Pilots are not assessed until the very end and may get a week of bypass pay if they are lucky. It is not a factor.

NC, I love this one “CX often state that they will grow faster if we had RA65”. Do you really believe them? Of course they are going to say that, they want to grow at our cost not theirs. They can source out training to Boeing, Alteon or other airlines. Mr. Boeing will supply training with these new 777-300ER’s and this is being looked into. Cheaper to have pilots after 55 on lower conditions and these retreads accept it.

Can’t say that I agree with your numbers, but I guess that is why I became a pilot.

GHE, you are correct if they come in at the bottom of the list. You have to ask yourself why does NR wants ASL on Veta? The reason why; the freighter agreement is now null and void, it will be deleted from your COS, so everyone will have to fly the freighter. It could make life very miserable for blokes sitting on bases that have freighter flights LHR, AMS, FRA, CDG, SFO, LAX, etc but then again it does not affect other pilots so it will be voted FOR. I don’t understand why pilots would want to vote for this but then again, it doesn’t affect me attitude arises.]

Now instead of doing LHR-HKG-LHR, you will now be PX’ing to CDG, overnight or operate to either Milan, Bombay, Delhi or some other port, overnight, fly to HKG and either hop back to the UK or fly direct OR LAX-SFO-ANC-overnight-ANC-DFW-ATL-overnight-ATL-YYZ-ANC- overnight- ANC-SFO-LAX. Next pairing may be the same or may get a LAX-HKG-overnight-HKG-ANC-overnight-ANC-SFO-LAX or whatever. We all know how creative crew scheduling/crew control can get when they are short.

Much rather do LHR-HKG-LHR or LAX-HKG-LAX but then again freighter flying is interesting flying so I am told.

5-O, if you were here in 99 to 01 you would have seen many pilots talk the talk at meeting but did not come close to walking the walk. Some talked but did the opposite when the numbers came down. I remember many aircraft taking to the sky with those very pilots who were under threat. Pilots that were under direct threat continued to do the job, not much solidarity there but it’s a nice thought.

The only thing that will keep changing here at CX is your COS. But only time will tell if I am correct and we should know in the next couple of months.