Update on pay negotiations
NICE
A guy over on the terms & endearment thread reckons SQ paid him 6 months profit share. That would be nice.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...271434&page=15
Not a bad thread to get an idea of whats being paid around the traps.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...271434&page=15
Not a bad thread to get an idea of whats being paid around the traps.
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Mr Bloggs,
In 1999, yes I think they would have come after us even if on one scale. Every dept in CX was told to reduce costs by 20%. Obviously with fixed overheads such as fuel, leasing, route operating costs, the only obvious target was salaries. In 1999, before the hoo haa, I was earning more than any FO in qantas. Now as a CN I earn as much as a 400FO in QF.
I try to be impartial - just quote facts and figures. I am not doing any others a service if I colour these facts and figures with my view. So I try not to state my opinion but I often fail;-/
CX want to end the FACA - the only way to do that is fire or integrate the (approx 40-50)ASL crews. Some ASL guys rejected the chance to come across in 2000 as they were close to 55 and would have been forced to retire. Some didn't come over as they were close to command in ASL and didn't want to have to wait another 9years by joining CX mainline.
If I had my time over I wouldn't have signed the deal in 94. I very much doubt I will ever be offered 8% again being A scale!
Do I really believe they will grow faster? Yes. It makes no sense increasing retirement age and DEFO with resultant bypass pay issues and increasing costs otherwise. This airline is training capacity constrained. If they want to expand faster they can get aircraft from leasing companies.
This might be hard to accept but having a later RA costs CX more per cockpit. WHy? Because in the average cockpit you have higher increment CNs and in the short term, higher increment FOs. Add in bypass pay and the costs skyrocket. An airline that isn't training constrained wants the most junior CNs/FOs possible. The training costs involved wash out in less than 4 years because of the higher increments. Even if conditions were degraded, it is still costlier to have CNs remain after 55.
New joiners
Without the rejection last summer, new DEFOs would be on a much lower package. With AOA involvement hopefully the new deal is a big improvement on what was nearly imposed. There is nothing in our CoS preventing them from employing DEFOs at any time on any base. They just have to pay bypass.
A new joiner can come in 3 ways today. Freighter FO, Pax FO or SO. If they have the experience they will join as an FO. A unified FO scale will ensure that the pilot will be better off financially than if he joined under the current FFO or SO salary. SOs joining in HKG will still be joining on the salary as it exists today.
So any new joiner is better off financially - how has the AOA let him down?
On bypass, why is it a joke? Bypass pay is paid to someone. Currently they pay bypass pay to highest eligible FO and I believe the highest eligible SO for CN extensions. 'Eligible' is where the confusion lies. If you are Cat D or you voluntarily defer a command(like an FO on a base waiting for a CN slot on the base) you are not entitled so bypass pay goes down the seniority list to the next eligible individual. The CoS has no mention of assessment but I may be wrong on that.
Myths:
DEFOs cost time to command and RA65 will accelerate time to command.
Facts:
DEFOs will accelerate time to command for all FO/SOs on the seniority list as this airline is training course constrained. The only ones to suffer are current SOs...and they will receive bypass pay as per the deal last year.
RA65 will slow down command rate. As i said earlier, I do think CX will expand faster in future but not enough to absorb all the extendees. So I would assume a 2+year delay for a brand new SO(11+years).
Housing and other benefits (such as travel fund, education) are now taxed. The IRD is shifting in its interpretation of what is an allowance or non cash allowance. This has been a consistent trend. The AOA has been funding an appeal on the housing interpretation but it appears that IRD interpretation has infact changed and all these benefits are taxable. So it seems the advice CX got from its lawyers was in fact accurate. I know there is pilot whingeing, but does paranoia extend so far as to think an employer really wants every payment/benefit made taxable?
Whatever the deal, vote for it or not on its merits not prejudice or the histrionics of certain PPRUNE posters.
I think people should listen to the advice given by the AOA, CX, colleagues, competitor airline mates, PPRUNE, the DB plaza and then make up their own mind.
In 1999, yes I think they would have come after us even if on one scale. Every dept in CX was told to reduce costs by 20%. Obviously with fixed overheads such as fuel, leasing, route operating costs, the only obvious target was salaries. In 1999, before the hoo haa, I was earning more than any FO in qantas. Now as a CN I earn as much as a 400FO in QF.
I try to be impartial - just quote facts and figures. I am not doing any others a service if I colour these facts and figures with my view. So I try not to state my opinion but I often fail;-/
CX want to end the FACA - the only way to do that is fire or integrate the (approx 40-50)ASL crews. Some ASL guys rejected the chance to come across in 2000 as they were close to 55 and would have been forced to retire. Some didn't come over as they were close to command in ASL and didn't want to have to wait another 9years by joining CX mainline.
If I had my time over I wouldn't have signed the deal in 94. I very much doubt I will ever be offered 8% again being A scale!
Do I really believe they will grow faster? Yes. It makes no sense increasing retirement age and DEFO with resultant bypass pay issues and increasing costs otherwise. This airline is training capacity constrained. If they want to expand faster they can get aircraft from leasing companies.
This might be hard to accept but having a later RA costs CX more per cockpit. WHy? Because in the average cockpit you have higher increment CNs and in the short term, higher increment FOs. Add in bypass pay and the costs skyrocket. An airline that isn't training constrained wants the most junior CNs/FOs possible. The training costs involved wash out in less than 4 years because of the higher increments. Even if conditions were degraded, it is still costlier to have CNs remain after 55.
New joiners
Without the rejection last summer, new DEFOs would be on a much lower package. With AOA involvement hopefully the new deal is a big improvement on what was nearly imposed. There is nothing in our CoS preventing them from employing DEFOs at any time on any base. They just have to pay bypass.
A new joiner can come in 3 ways today. Freighter FO, Pax FO or SO. If they have the experience they will join as an FO. A unified FO scale will ensure that the pilot will be better off financially than if he joined under the current FFO or SO salary. SOs joining in HKG will still be joining on the salary as it exists today.
So any new joiner is better off financially - how has the AOA let him down?
On bypass, why is it a joke? Bypass pay is paid to someone. Currently they pay bypass pay to highest eligible FO and I believe the highest eligible SO for CN extensions. 'Eligible' is where the confusion lies. If you are Cat D or you voluntarily defer a command(like an FO on a base waiting for a CN slot on the base) you are not entitled so bypass pay goes down the seniority list to the next eligible individual. The CoS has no mention of assessment but I may be wrong on that.
Myths:
DEFOs cost time to command and RA65 will accelerate time to command.
Facts:
DEFOs will accelerate time to command for all FO/SOs on the seniority list as this airline is training course constrained. The only ones to suffer are current SOs...and they will receive bypass pay as per the deal last year.
RA65 will slow down command rate. As i said earlier, I do think CX will expand faster in future but not enough to absorb all the extendees. So I would assume a 2+year delay for a brand new SO(11+years).
Housing and other benefits (such as travel fund, education) are now taxed. The IRD is shifting in its interpretation of what is an allowance or non cash allowance. This has been a consistent trend. The AOA has been funding an appeal on the housing interpretation but it appears that IRD interpretation has infact changed and all these benefits are taxable. So it seems the advice CX got from its lawyers was in fact accurate. I know there is pilot whingeing, but does paranoia extend so far as to think an employer really wants every payment/benefit made taxable?
Whatever the deal, vote for it or not on its merits not prejudice or the histrionics of certain PPRUNE posters.
I think people should listen to the advice given by the AOA, CX, colleagues, competitor airline mates, PPRUNE, the DB plaza and then make up their own mind.
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NC,
I think the problem Bloggs has with the AOA committee and the DEFO deal was that they were trying to sell us on how good it was. Fortunately for the first and only time since I've been in the AOA the membership came back with a sensible response.
I think the problem Bloggs has with the AOA committee and the DEFO deal was that they were trying to sell us on how good it was. Fortunately for the first and only time since I've been in the AOA the membership came back with a sensible response.
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Regarding your analysis of the impact of RA60-65: sounds reasonable, if you really believe the expansion will pick-up speed. That would be an optimistic scenario. The reality is that the expansion may remain at the current rate or even slow down with a changing economy, ever increasing competition or whatever unexpected event that may happen in the future (similar to SARS etc). Who can really tell? Any "glitch" in the optimistic scenario and the time to command will increase significantly. Your figure of 4 years delay with RA60 is more likely, and probably 7-8 years with RA65. Under that scenario, "junior" officers will definitely have to work past 55 in order to be able to retire considering the lost revenue arising from a delayed upgrade!
Increasing the retirement age is a significant issue for a large portion of the pilot group and one that could seriously disrupt career progressions. It may be a good deal for the company or senior officers not waiting on an upgrade, but it certainly isn’t good news for the majority. Who would gamble his/her career prospect for a small pay rise or increase in benefits?
Increasing the retirement age is a significant issue for a large portion of the pilot group and one that could seriously disrupt career progressions. It may be a good deal for the company or senior officers not waiting on an upgrade, but it certainly isn’t good news for the majority. Who would gamble his/her career prospect for a small pay rise or increase in benefits?
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I can tell you from experience, that if the retirement age is extended to 60 from your current 55, it will delay peoples' promotions by way more than the 2 years mentioned earlier on. Despite the expansion program, I believe the training system limitations and command failure rates will put paid to any 'promises' of no real delays from your managers. Additionally, any shiny new aircraft that are on the order books today may well disappear in a puff of CEO smoke in 6 months time. It is easy to 'dream up' expansion plans to help allay the fears of those sitting on the fence! A certain Southern Hemisphere airline did just that not too long ago...
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Capt TOGA,
No I don't. When I reread my post, I see it may seem like I am speaking as such. However I speak as a common colleague as I worked in Asia in the recent past and I work for a company now that has similar problems. So I suppose I feel like I am one of the group, but not one in Cathay. I apologize if it seems like I speak as I am one of "the Cathay boys" as I am not. However I do feel like a colleague and I do feel we all need to band together on our common goals. I enjoyed working in Asia, and I would like to come back after working in N. America again. I came here to educate myself on how the Cathay boys feel...and unfortunately I have let my strong opinions run off. I just hate it when I hear managment types spitting at us when they are supposed to be working with us! In any case, I first thought Cathay was really good right now, but I can see there are some hidden agenda's at play internally, and there is a tough battle with not much Labor law strength for the guys. And unfortunately...as is my nature...I once and awhile start **** disturbing!
You may or may not see more of me...I will however watch my reference.
No I don't. When I reread my post, I see it may seem like I am speaking as such. However I speak as a common colleague as I worked in Asia in the recent past and I work for a company now that has similar problems. So I suppose I feel like I am one of the group, but not one in Cathay. I apologize if it seems like I speak as I am one of "the Cathay boys" as I am not. However I do feel like a colleague and I do feel we all need to band together on our common goals. I enjoyed working in Asia, and I would like to come back after working in N. America again. I came here to educate myself on how the Cathay boys feel...and unfortunately I have let my strong opinions run off. I just hate it when I hear managment types spitting at us when they are supposed to be working with us! In any case, I first thought Cathay was really good right now, but I can see there are some hidden agenda's at play internally, and there is a tough battle with not much Labor law strength for the guys. And unfortunately...as is my nature...I once and awhile start **** disturbing!
You may or may not see more of me...I will however watch my reference.
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You will get an 8% pay increase. It must be worth it. Take one for the company. I am sure many Captains will feel for you. They do have a tendency to think of others but are usually looking in the mirror.
Sorry mates, the CX pilots think as individuals and not as a group and that is the cause of all the attacks. Nothing will change now or in the future.
An Oz based pilot does not give a rat’s ass about a bloke in LHR or his roster. The LHR pilots do not give a rat’s ass about a pilot in LAX (bloody Yanks). A LAX pilot does not give a rat’s ass about a pilot based in Perth. Who cares, it does not affect me. I am willing to screw my fellow pilots and accept a bad deal for them if I can get something out of it and it does not affect me.
Do you really think the Captains think about retirement age? Screw the young blokes. I get an 8% pay rise and I can work for longer. They don’t really care. Do Captains really care if an S/O has to pay $100,000 HKD if his wife has an operation because it is not covered in his/her medical package? I think not, but the Capt is fine, he is on a better package.
That is how it works in CX.
Crew control and scheduling operate with impunity with the sanctions of the GMA and the DFO. They all meet every morning and go over the last days delays. If you did not go above and beyond the call of duty, you will be called to explain. It’s the environment we work in.
Rules are for paper only, they do what they want. It is China.
Pilots will put their license, job and there career on the line for CX. They could be the most tired pilot at the time but when crew control asks you to go above the call of duty (which you are solely accountable), pilots back down and do what crew control wants. Pilots just hope or are ignorant on how they are responsible and CX is isolated because you as a Captain took all the responsibility yourself.
Pilot: I am too tired/fatigued
Crew control: So you are calling in sick.
Pilot: No, I am not sick; I am too tired/ fatigued.
Crew Control: So it’s a missed duty
Pilot: No, I am too tired/fatigued.
Crew Control: But it is legal.
Pilot: Yes I know it is legal, but I am too tired.
Crew Control: Standby, we are calling your Fleet Manager
Let’s just watch on how this next COS is negotiated and how it is recommended and how it is voted on. I will bet my bottom dollar that the pilots of CX will eat their own young if need be.
Pessimistic? No, just an optimist with experience and know how the CX pilots work. It will be interesting.
Sorry mates, the CX pilots think as individuals and not as a group and that is the cause of all the attacks. Nothing will change now or in the future.
An Oz based pilot does not give a rat’s ass about a bloke in LHR or his roster. The LHR pilots do not give a rat’s ass about a pilot in LAX (bloody Yanks). A LAX pilot does not give a rat’s ass about a pilot based in Perth. Who cares, it does not affect me. I am willing to screw my fellow pilots and accept a bad deal for them if I can get something out of it and it does not affect me.
Do you really think the Captains think about retirement age? Screw the young blokes. I get an 8% pay rise and I can work for longer. They don’t really care. Do Captains really care if an S/O has to pay $100,000 HKD if his wife has an operation because it is not covered in his/her medical package? I think not, but the Capt is fine, he is on a better package.
That is how it works in CX.
Crew control and scheduling operate with impunity with the sanctions of the GMA and the DFO. They all meet every morning and go over the last days delays. If you did not go above and beyond the call of duty, you will be called to explain. It’s the environment we work in.
Rules are for paper only, they do what they want. It is China.
Pilots will put their license, job and there career on the line for CX. They could be the most tired pilot at the time but when crew control asks you to go above the call of duty (which you are solely accountable), pilots back down and do what crew control wants. Pilots just hope or are ignorant on how they are responsible and CX is isolated because you as a Captain took all the responsibility yourself.
Pilot: I am too tired/fatigued
Crew control: So you are calling in sick.
Pilot: No, I am not sick; I am too tired/ fatigued.
Crew Control: So it’s a missed duty
Pilot: No, I am too tired/fatigued.
Crew Control: But it is legal.
Pilot: Yes I know it is legal, but I am too tired.
Crew Control: Standby, we are calling your Fleet Manager
Let’s just watch on how this next COS is negotiated and how it is recommended and how it is voted on. I will bet my bottom dollar that the pilots of CX will eat their own young if need be.
Pessimistic? No, just an optimist with experience and know how the CX pilots work. It will be interesting.
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URGENT - CX Proposal
Just had this FWD'd to me:
Dear Colleagues/Friends,
As you are all aware, the Company and the AOA have been in talks over the last 2 months regarding the important issues of Pay, Retirement Age and Direct Entry First Officers. The talks are nearing completion and a proposal is expected to be put forward in early August.
What you may not know, is the seriousness the outcome of these talks and subsequent vote, to the rest of your career at Cathay Pacific.
The company has indicated that there is some money on the table for the pay talks. It’s how they plan to use this money that is of greatest concern. Let me explain by telling you what the likely proposal will contain.
Instantaneous extension of retirement age to 65.
Any extension beyond age 55 will be on current pay scale. Ie A Scalers can work to age 65 on A Scale pay inclusive of yearly increments.
Bypass pay for all officers affected by this extension who remain on COS99
Introduction of COS08 that includes:
Retirement age 65
Waiving of bypass pay until an officer is extended beyond age 65
All new joiners and based crew will have to sign. (CX is claiming that due to local discrimination laws, based crew will be required to be on a contract that doesn’t discriminate against age)
DEFO pay to be introduced to pax and freighter fleets as follows
Yr 1 – Freighter FO 1 pay
Yr 2 – Freighter FO 2 pay
Yr 3 – Freighter FO 3 pay
Yr 4 – Intermediate amount between Freighter FO 3 and Pax SFO 1
Yr 5 – Pax SFO 1 pay
Yr 6 - Pax SFO 2 pay etc etc
An insult of a pay increase, not much more than 5% over the next 2.5 years!
BEWARE - It will be advertised as something different, but if you look closely, its not.
What does this mean to those of us who have not attained the rank of Captain, or are a relatively junior Captain?
Conservative estimates put the Average delay to command at 3-4 years
That’s 3-4 years that you are not earning command pay, and this money (your money) is going toward the funding of extending A scalers on A Scale Pay!
This estimate is if the company continue to expand at the current rate. It will be longer if we have a downturn.
Bypass pay will be paid to those officers who remain on CoS99
however, bypass pay never leaves the Captain Year 1 pay increment (have a look at the difference between SFO Yr 6 pay and Captain Yr 1 pay. There’s not much difference!)
The company has indicated that they have already set aside funds to pay the bypass pay. They need age 65 and are willing to pay bypass pay, which is cheaper that slowing their expansion.
Officers on CoS08 will not be paid bypass pay for over 55 extendees.
If an officer is on Cos08 and at the top of the FO seniority list and there is one extended Captain, then there is no bypass pay paid. If there are 2 Captains extended, and the top FO is on Cos08 and the next FO is on Cos99, then only one lot of bypass pay paid. If there are 3 Captains extended and the third FO is on CoS08, then there is still only one lot of bypass pay paid. So on and so on. Another saving for the company to help fund the A Scalers.
Delayed or non-existent based opportunities
Just think of the number of A scalers who have been planning to retire at 55, and have enough money to do so, now willing to take the pay decrease to take a base. It’s now just pocket money to them. Bases will become somewhere where the senior aircrew go to see out their days, not somewhere you can take your family after upgrading to captain.
How is it possible that this proposal could even be considered by the GC, let alone put to us to vote on?
The GC is not representative of its members or the CX aircrew body. Here is the rough membership breakdown
CX F/O's total - 1050 of which 520 are AOA members
CX Capt's total - 750 of which 425 are AOA members
CX S/O's total - not exactly sure, but slight majority are members
Approx 15 of the 22 GC members are A Scale captains
Only 2 F/O's currently on the GC!
Who stands to benefit from this proposal?
100 of our 1000 odd members (Approx 100 A Scalers are members)
200-300 A Scalers who are non members.
CX. They get to solve their self made problem of not having enough Captains to fulfil their expansion plans
Who stands to lose from this proposal?
YOU!
Including those of you who are NON HKAOA members!! Join Now to vote!
What can we do?
Of course voting NO is an obvious way of showing your disgust at your future being sold down the toilet for a bunch that have had it good for so many years already, at the expense of US, the junior officers.
The chances are, the company will just introduce age 65 anyway, as they have done with the extension of C & T Captains already.
BUT, if we can get everyone to vote and have a say, to show the company and the AOA that the VAST MAJORITY of the aircrew body thinks this PROPOSAL STINKS, then we have more of a chance to deflect this attack on OUR future.
Write to the AOA in mass numbers, demanding that they fight for pay and conditions for the majority of the membership, not just a small few. Demand that they tell the company, in no uncertain terms, that the B scale pilot body is not going to fund the solution to the company’s own mess. It is our future, and we must do everything we can to protect it!
FORWARD THIS EMAIL ON to ALL of your CX F/O and S/O friends and colleagues, members or not.
JOIN THE AOA and VOTE. If you are not a member of the AOA, JOIN NOW. There is still time for you to join and have your say. Don’t look back in a few years time and say “I wish I had of spent a couple of hundred dollars to have my voice heard”. Join now by emailing [email protected]
This is no time for finger pointing and blaming anyone else for what we are about to be presented with. This is a time where we need UNITY. We all have the same objective – TO PROTECT OUR FUTURE.
Please forward this email on to you friends and write to the AOA now at [email protected] demanding they accept nothing less than a fair proposal for all.
Thank you for your time.
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Mr Bloggs,
Mate. You got it all right. Thas IS how it IS! Maybe it was different in the past - unfortunately thats not where we live - we live in the real world as per your description. This company will not give a cent without getting a dollar back. CX are in the money only business and that comes before anything else - anything.
You can see it all coming just by reading the AoA updates on the ongoing "negotiations" - its really sad reading.
Anybody thinking there will be any kind of improvement to the current CoS without the pilot core paying for it themselves and most likely paying more than given - well.. why dont we just wait and see..
Mate. You got it all right. Thas IS how it IS! Maybe it was different in the past - unfortunately thats not where we live - we live in the real world as per your description. This company will not give a cent without getting a dollar back. CX are in the money only business and that comes before anything else - anything.
You can see it all coming just by reading the AoA updates on the ongoing "negotiations" - its really sad reading.
Anybody thinking there will be any kind of improvement to the current CoS without the pilot core paying for it themselves and most likely paying more than given - well.. why dont we just wait and see..
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Great summary!
...but you're wrong!
I am an A scaler (or used to be at least, when I got paid more than 60% more than a B scaler) and there is NOTHING in the emailed proposal for me!!!
All the pay rises are to the B scalers - all the A scalers get is the right (obligation) to fly the freighter on freighter RPs. Thats it - no pay rise.
I can count very few fellow A scalers who will work beyond 55 ( Im thinking less than 10) May be some more will do a one year extension, but thats it.
This should be a pay rise for everyone! And regardless what you think about the A scale, remmeber that the higher it is, the higher the B scale will go. Whatever has happened to the A scale (ie no pay rise since 94) will eventually happen to the B scale when it is the highest pay scale in CX.
This is a bad proposal, but NOT because it is (supposedly) good for A scalers!
I am an A scaler (or used to be at least, when I got paid more than 60% more than a B scaler) and there is NOTHING in the emailed proposal for me!!!
All the pay rises are to the B scalers - all the A scalers get is the right (obligation) to fly the freighter on freighter RPs. Thats it - no pay rise.
I can count very few fellow A scalers who will work beyond 55 ( Im thinking less than 10) May be some more will do a one year extension, but thats it.
This should be a pay rise for everyone! And regardless what you think about the A scale, remmeber that the higher it is, the higher the B scale will go. Whatever has happened to the A scale (ie no pay rise since 94) will eventually happen to the B scale when it is the highest pay scale in CX.
This is a bad proposal, but NOT because it is (supposedly) good for A scalers!
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Proposal
Yes...but the crucial point for those near command is this...a 3-4 year delay. And for those of us that have already been here 7-8 years, that would equate to 10-12 years in the right seat (if you joined on the freighter).
Have no intention of hanging around and taking another 3-4 years of crap from the likes of the 400 checking dept! We all know who the tossers are...maybe its time they were named and shamed publicly!
Have no intention of hanging around and taking another 3-4 years of crap from the likes of the 400 checking dept! We all know who the tossers are...maybe its time they were named and shamed publicly!
freighter crews
Seems all the boys that jumped on board to operate the freighter when the company was slaughtering guys that had been here nearly 10 years waiting for a command aren't having such a rosy time of it.Didn't seem to bother you when the cx pilots were toe to toe with the company protecting our rights back then..taking command jobs away from pax crews...which resulted in 53 of our guys being summarily executed.Now you're finally getting a taste of what we'd been fighting all along so suck it up!...we told you so!
It's all out on the table now and you've got no right to bitch about pax crews doing anything after the effect your even joining cx at that time had on our f/o's....you're in for a long,hard bat up the bottom...so lube up boys.
It's all out on the table now and you've got no right to bitch about pax crews doing anything after the effect your even joining cx at that time had on our f/o's....you're in for a long,hard bat up the bottom...so lube up boys.