Defopax

[Cedar Tree]

The S/O life looks pretty good to me with lots of days off. Why rush into the F/O short(er) haul flying? You'll just end up complaining about the roster.

If seniority determines skipper, then why not just enjoy your free time? I'll take bypass pay and more days off!

Some S/O's are upgrading to F/O after only 2 years 8 months, not a long wait if you ask me.

[cpdude]

Time spent on recce is seldom wasted! BK

Another frustrated S/O waiting to upgrade (for the record...I think they should have a fixed upgrade date...3 years...from hire).

What is...is! You can let it go and not worry about what you don't control or chose to live miserably. It's your choice A/T and others.

[A/T less]

Why is it that everytime someone points out the things that are imperfect about a company, there's always an army of kool aid drinker telling them to quit or move on?

Is that how you wimps solve problems? Just refuse to see the problem and run away?

As for BILLYTHEKID, I smile everytime I read your posts, because I know so well what type of person CX will transform you into. I know, because it happened to me and MANY OTHERS!

Just wait a few years, junior boy.

[cpdude]

I know so well what type of person CX will transform you into. I know, because it happened to me and MANY OTHERS!
Just wait a few years, junior boy.

...and it DOESN'T happen to many more!

Nothing wrong with trying to solve problems but please don't lay the blame on new-joiners because you don't agree with the rules.

If you want to attempt to really solve some problems then get active in the AOA, otherwise go keep yourself company! If you have no faith in the AOA...then your screwed buddy so accept it and take it like a man.

[Numero Crunchero]

A/T less
I normally refrain from commenting on individuals. I prefer to answer questions and argue logically, rather than attack personally. But seriously mate, you have huge issues. Do you get angry and blame the 'wimps' for everything wrong with your life? Less rhethoric please and a little more substance to your comments would go a long way!

I will say it again....you will not be bypassed for command...you will get bypass pay if you are suitable for upgrade to FO and you have DEFOs ahead of you.

I think the premise of your argument is that we are not training contrained? If we are NOT training course constrained, then DEFOs are costing you time to FO but not total time to command. If we ARE training course constrained, DEFOs will still delay your upgrade to FO but accelerate(shorten) your total time to command as the airline can grow faster than it could if it followed the strict SO-FO-CN career path.

Short term pain, long term gain buddy!

By the way, please do not for a minute think that the above logic applies to the "RA60 will accelerate your command" sophistic company espoused mantra! B#llsh*t!

PS A/T less, I can assure you the company has been more consistent over the last few years than it was in my first 8 years...3 contracts, 1 sign or be fired. Its just a job mate, get over it. Enjoy the time at the office...enjoy the free trips to far off destinations. Before you know it you will be 'stir frying' around asia as an FO on min days off reminiscing about the good old SO days of 3 ULRs a month and 18 days off!

[A/T less]

NC,
So if CX starts hiring DEC tomorrow, you would be totally OK with it? (and please don't tell me the contract doesn't allow it, because we ain't got any contracts)

You're perfectly OK with the current situation is because it is NOT affecting YOUR career progression.

On the topic of BYPASS PAY: We are NOT ELIGIBLE for bypass pay until Cathay gives you the "tech interview" (interview again to upgrade). You could be CAT A (hoop #1), but until the interview (hoop #2) has been GRANTED and that you passed (hoop #3), and that the REVIEW BOARD gives you the thumb's up (hoop #4) you CAN NOT be classified "suitable for upgrade" hence, NO BYPASS PAY.

Cathay going to give a few hundred S/Os bypass pay to work 9 days a month?

[Richard Wong]

We employ you on very good conditions, if you don't like it...Chek Lap Kok is only 40 minutes away...YOU GO HOME NOW!!! GO NOW!!

Our airlines need to get more locals in here, the foreigners are simply just a pain. I wish Mr. Philip Chen would make some changes in FOP department and start an anti-gweilo movement and send all of you complainers home on a freight container.

[Mr. Bloggs]

Don’t think it’s the DEFO’s fault but I guess it depends on where you sit. Blame the DFO. He’s the orchestrator.

They need S/O’s in Hong Kong and need DEFO’s on a base. There are many F/O slots on bases not filled, so CX is hiring directly to these bases and saving huge amounts of money.

Point: It is those that have been screwed and those that will. It’s only a matter of time. This time it is the S/O’s.

Not much you can do about. Go on Strike? Complain to your Chief Pilot?

Getting angry at the DEFO’s is not going to solve it. Wrong guys to get angry at.

Welcome to the Big Brush Stroke Airlines, the Black Heart of Asia.

A/T: You are correct. It does not effect certain people and it’s the I’m Alright Jack Syndrome. I have seen it in 1993,1999, 2001 and when we ditched the 49ers.

Any suggestions on how we fix the problem?

[Numero Crunchero]

I love statistics...you can say anything with them!

In 84% of this company's history they have employed direct entry FOs to the pax fleet.
In 100% of this company's history they have employed direct entry FOs to the pax or freighter fleet.
IN 100% of this company's history there has been at least one person who had a whinge that couldn't be solved! Congratulations A/T, you win.

I had my command delayed several years (not sure how many) by the introduction of ASL. I am still here...it affected me, it annoyed me but I CHOSE to stay. After choosing to stay I think I kinda lost the right to whinge anymore as the only other solution to acceptance was to quit. A/T, you have two choices...accept or leave. Maybe you should resign and give up 2 years seniority and come back as a DEFO!

Did you know that many of the first LEPs were working for CX for 5years+ before they actually joined the aircrew seniority list? I think they have a bigger gripe than yours. But thats just my opinion. Your command will come faster with DEFOs being employed. HKG will be the major base for DEFOs once all the bases are full. Its just cheaper to fill the bases first.

A/T what you should be far more worried about is RA60. That will DELAY your command...the opposite effect to DEFOs.

[Kane Toed]

Just as a matter of interest NC, could I ask why you brought up this point in relation to delay to upgrades?

Did you know that many of the first LEPs were working for CX for 5years+ before they actually joined the aircrew seniority list?

I'm assuming it's because the first tranche of LEP joined under the impression that they WERE going to be on the seniority list, and then this was changed once they were in the company? If that's not the reason, then I'm not sure how pertinent it is to the current thread?

A/T may be banging the drum a little more vociferously than I am, but he does have a point - the reason that the delay to SO upgrades is not a 'hot topic' is because there are only 300 of them, and most are -understandably - not prepared to rock the boat when they have only been on board for a short period of time.

I accede to the 'put up and shut up' argument; actually there is little choice. Furthermore, I accept that it's the company's responsibility to make money for the shareholders, whereas it's only their choice if they want to give me any information that might affect my life. Notwithstanding all of that, there is the feeling amongst us bottom feeders that there has been pretty major change to our career path.

I'm into numbers too NC, in fact I have a Maths Degree (pure and computing tho' no stats!), but I'm still not convinced by your long term projection. There are two points that I contest:

Firstly, your final comment about RA60 is critical. Remember, that from the bottom of the heap, we have both DEFO on the pax fleet AND RA60 as potential changing factors. Assuming that your argument is correct, and that all these DEFOs who are going directly into 'my' RHS are a good thing for me, I have to hope to hell that I get upgraded before RA60 is an issue. If not, those DEFO will still be in 'my' seat, and no-one will be upgraded for 5 years. Probably fair to assume that I'll be in the jump seat for a while longer if that's the case.

Secondly, you projection assumes no slow down in expansion or other negative factors. If however something does go wrong (and I've also been in aviation for almost 20 years - we know that things are always on the change), then the delayed SOs will be watching it unfold from... the jump seat. Take if from me, important as it is be beat the rest to command, it's just as important to progress at a reasonable rate. If nothing else, it's very very difficult to keep flying skills sharp for years with 12 hours 'hands-on' in the sim per year.

Finally, I'm not convinced by the bypass pay comments either. I'm really not sure that a profits driven airline would give their SO's the upgrade interview simply to allow them to get bypass pay. By the way, as a shareholder, I'm not sure I would want that anyway! Once those RHS are full, interviews will stop - or perhaps there will be a number of D Cat SOs!

Mr Bloggs:

Any suggestions on how we fix the problem?

Thank you for that, I almost feel as though someone above my pay grade is listening!

I think that it would be reasonable to go through the SO's that were recruited before the DEFO pax programme started, and offer all those who meet the hours requirements for DEFO pax (in seniority order). No change to seniority number - not need to resign and drop to the bottom of the pecking order. Once they have been upgraded then bring in the DE guys. Those SOs who don't have the hours will remain as SO's, but for them the impact is likely to be less in the long run, as they are almost certainly younger and at an earlier point in their aviation career. They can afford to play the long game, and still have the ultimate security of a lower seniority number.

Finally, I'm sure that some people are happy to just sit there and take the money, but I would say that the majority of CX SOs have joined to progress. To be brutally honest, the lifestyle as a SO is great, but the job...

As always, just my uneducated view on things!

KT

[Harbour Dweller]

Excellent post Kane Toed

[Numero Crunchero]

queensland frog, well said.

I brought up the point about LEPs as I do see it as similar. They joined under a system that didn't give them seniority until they had been FOs for about 2 years. Then the rules changed and it became DoJ for seniority on the ASL. So not exactly the same...just pointing out that this airline has a long and distinguished history of disappointing pilots.

I actually sympathise with your case far more than you know. I know that the AOA GC are concerned and had some safeguards built in to the failed DEFO proposal.

I know that management are concerned at having 'institutional' SOs. I have heard, anecdotally, that the longer the time spent as SO the more difficult is the transition to FO. So it is in their financial best interests to keep things moving.

I didn't major in statistics, my degrees are in finance and science. I just love statistics as you can 'prove' almost anything with them;-)

I agree that if RA60 comes in without safeguards and/or a slowdown occurs, things will look bleak for SOs. I hope you are an AOA member...SOs+FOs are in the majority in the AOA so any vote on RA60 will need to be acceptable to those who it will affect most. I believe RA60 should be your greatest concern, not slowdown. CX has committed to a growth rate over the next few years that should ensure plenty of upgrades.

Heres some numbers for you mr mathematician. I think CP airbus said about 50 - 60 commands on bus this year. I assume the same for 777. That would mean say 120 commands, not counting freighters. The retirement rate varies but averages almost 60pilots per year. Assuming no pilot leaves if RA60 is introduced, the upgrade rate halves. If a slowdown occurs and we don't order any more aircraft, about 3 years from now there would be no upgrades...no one will leave until they get to 60. Then from 2012 onwards, as the first RA60 pilots hit 60, we will again need 60commands a year just to replace retirements.

If the current growth rate continues indefinitely, RA60 will delay your command by about 2 1/2 years. RA60 and or extending using current CoS terms of bypass pay, will delay commands. Anyone that says different is pulling your chain or trying to sell you a used car.

KT and AT, many of us are looking out for your best interests, as others did for me when I was a newbie. FOs and SOs outnumber CNs...so when it comes time to vote, if you are not happy, reject RA60. In the meantime remember "have the courage to change the things you can change, the serenity to accept the things you cannot change, and have wisdom to know the difference". Chill, enjoy the view.

[Cronus]

Time people got a hobby..

"Those SOs who don't have the hours will remain as SO's, but for them the impact is likely to be less in the long run, as they are almost certainly younger and at an earlier point in their aviation career. They can afford to play the long game, and still have the ultimate security of a lower seniority number."

Excuse me but, what the f*ck?

Exactly why should I be disadvantaged because my experience, on date of joining, didn't meet the requirements for DEFO? It's a ridiculous suggestion.

All those wannabe's checking out the rash of threads on how much Cx sucks, as Flava Flav says, "Don't believe the hype"...

Cronus

[BusyB]

NC,

"when it comes time to vote, if you are not happy, reject RA60"

Where do you vote if its a law in various states?

Can't ever see a vote on that I'm afraid, possibly a negotiation to introduce it but not a vote.

[cpdude]

I agree that if RA60 comes in without safeguards and/or a slowdown occurs, things will look bleak for SOs.

How is that? A low-time 20 something guy with 35+ years available to him has a bleak outlook? They got in young with little experience and good on them but if they have to wait an extra couple of years to get a command...too bad!

I'm sick of this RA60 concern. 60 or even 65 should be the retirement age even if I and others don't want to proceed beyond 55. Forced to retire when you are healthy and capable is wrong and the courts have agreed with me so accept the new limits and get on with life!

[404 Titan]

cpdude

That’s a complete distortion of the truth. Do you know the demographics of the average SO joining the company? It aint 20 years old mate. It’s closer to 35. A very large proportion of those could have joined as DEFO’s on the freighter if places were available in the ports from which they were employed but they weren’t. RA60 will delay any FO and Command upgrade by at least 5 years. Simple mathematics.

While I concede that being able to work until 60 may appear attractive, especially if you already hold a command and/or have had several wives or started late in this career like me, it is detrimental to the pilot body as a whole.

Using your analogy that retirement age should be 60 or 65 is just as floored as 55 in the eyes of some courts. It is age discrimination. Now having an open ended retirement age would really be great for everyone wouldn’t it? Not.

[Kane Toed]

404 Titan quite correctly stated:
RA60 will delay any FO and Command upgrade by at least 5 years. Simple mathematics.

Absolutely.

Spot on with the age thing too. I remember being 35! Freighter? None available where I can live. DEFO pax? After my time.

Oh well, more chance to go diving I guess! At least if I can't be a CN (or even FO) at least I could be a DM!!

[BusyB]

404,

"While I concede that being able to work until 60 may appear attractive, especially if you already hold a command and/or have had several wives or started late in this career like me, it is detrimental to the pilot body as a whole."

I'm not sure that "as a whole" is true these days. Yes, it might well be worse for some although PC's words in ATW talking of CX possibly having 240 aircraft in 10 years would definiely need them to retain pilots to the max age. In addition the way pensions are going I see lots of people needing to work longer.

[tryhard]

"Detrimentantal to the pilot body as a whole"

My God, what a f^%$ing joke. Firstly there is no "pilot body" in cathay. Just a group of individuals squabbling over absolute ****e.
THIS AIRLINE IS AN ABSOLUTE JOKE.

[Drunknsailor]

Try Hard,

Go home, you'll feel better.