Defopax
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Hmmm..
You're pissed about DEFO pax but not freight. So this is really about money and not flying then? I don't really believe that. I think you're pissed beacause your seniority can hold FO, but CX decided not to "let" you progress and has instead hired a DEFO pax. Should I be pissed that the guy hired the day before my three years is senior to me for the PAX bid?
I think your problem is with CX, not the DEFO. I am accepting that I may never make it any further at CX then what they hire me as. Again, that is the reason that I did not apply to be an SO.
How about the union getting a contract that no longer allows bypassing seniority for career progression instead of infighting? You know, be a part of the solution instead of being a part of the problem.
You're pissed about DEFO pax but not freight. So this is really about money and not flying then? I don't really believe that. I think you're pissed beacause your seniority can hold FO, but CX decided not to "let" you progress and has instead hired a DEFO pax. Should I be pissed that the guy hired the day before my three years is senior to me for the PAX bid?
I think your problem is with CX, not the DEFO. I am accepting that I may never make it any further at CX then what they hire me as. Again, that is the reason that I did not apply to be an SO.
How about the union getting a contract that no longer allows bypassing seniority for career progression instead of infighting? You know, be a part of the solution instead of being a part of the problem.
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BK, your right but remember CX are pro's at turning us against each other. That is how they succeed with contract cuts. Unfortunately, it will never change because we are too much of a diverse group with specific needs depending on our location of domicile.
Good luck at CX!
Good luck at CX!
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BillyTheKid,
You being a soon to be cathay pacific pilot I can gaurantee you that your attitude towards Cathay will be much different in a year.
Here, you having not spend 1 day at CX and already accusing the poor S/Os for "accepting the conditions of service" and now bitching about it.
Well, I for one, I'm sure others too, were not even shown the COSs until we were IN HONG KONG TO ACCEPT THE JOB. Some asked to see this at the interview and were quickly denied access.
So did I know they can hire people out of seniority? FFFF***CCCK NO!!!!
But your next accusation will be that we were naive and got what we deserve. But you know what? A company that runs business honestly would not "trap" future employees in this matter.
I am sorry to say that your honeymoon period at Cathay Pacific will soon end and you will face many of the hard facts about how this company goes about ruining their employees lives.
There have been over 30 guys (yanks) bailing out for jobs back in the States since Oct. Can you put 2 and 2 together? and Oh by the way, these aren't the lowly "inexperienced" S/Os (your words), these are the freighter F/Os that are bailing out. Can you guess why?
But you're suffering from "FNG syndrone" you don't see clearly until it's too late.
Good luck.
You being a soon to be cathay pacific pilot I can gaurantee you that your attitude towards Cathay will be much different in a year.
Here, you having not spend 1 day at CX and already accusing the poor S/Os for "accepting the conditions of service" and now bitching about it.
Well, I for one, I'm sure others too, were not even shown the COSs until we were IN HONG KONG TO ACCEPT THE JOB. Some asked to see this at the interview and were quickly denied access.
So did I know they can hire people out of seniority? FFFF***CCCK NO!!!!
But your next accusation will be that we were naive and got what we deserve. But you know what? A company that runs business honestly would not "trap" future employees in this matter.
I am sorry to say that your honeymoon period at Cathay Pacific will soon end and you will face many of the hard facts about how this company goes about ruining their employees lives.
There have been over 30 guys (yanks) bailing out for jobs back in the States since Oct. Can you put 2 and 2 together? and Oh by the way, these aren't the lowly "inexperienced" S/Os (your words), these are the freighter F/Os that are bailing out. Can you guess why?
But you're suffering from "FNG syndrone" you don't see clearly until it's too late.
Good luck.
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BK...
UNION??? CONTRACT??
Unions aren't legal in Hong Kong, it's an association..with, I think, and correct me if I am wrong, less than 50% membership.
Contract changes at the companies whim...
This isn't the USA...better learn that REAL FAST...and as someone said befor your attitude towards Cathay will change...FAST.
UNION??? CONTRACT??
Unions aren't legal in Hong Kong, it's an association..with, I think, and correct me if I am wrong, less than 50% membership.
Contract changes at the companies whim...
This isn't the USA...better learn that REAL FAST...and as someone said befor your attitude towards Cathay will change...FAST.
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Quote "There have been over 30 guys (yanks) bailing out for jobs back in the States since Oct."
Bullsh1t, try sticking to the facts. The number may reach 30 (or more) but at the moment was 9 FO's and 2 Capt as of last week.
BK, there are some bitter and twisted people here and do not let that sway your decision.
Bullsh1t, try sticking to the facts. The number may reach 30 (or more) but at the moment was 9 FO's and 2 Capt as of last week.
BK, there are some bitter and twisted people here and do not let that sway your decision.
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A/T-
Tell me where I said the SO's were inexperienced. Meeting minimums and being an experienced person are different to me, but I guess they're not to you. You sound like a bitter person that likes to beat his chest about how great they are and how dumb everyone else is.
FNG syndrome?!? Anytime you want to have a p$ssing contest about paying dues, let me know.
If a company won't tell me the conditions I am to work under, then I don't take the job. It's that simple. I do not have any sympathy for those that blindly choose things in life and then complain about them afterwards. To me that is irresponsible. I have made a great effort to understand the working environment at CX and I accept that some of things are less than desireable.
White Guy-
Yes, it is association versus union. I use the terms synonymously, but I probably shouldn't. And I am also very aware that it is quite different than the USA, but thanks for pointing that out.
Fire-
Thanks for the kind words...there are quite a few bitter folks on this board it would seem.
How many of those SO's chose the job because they could not meet the minimums for DEFO?
FNG syndrome?!? Anytime you want to have a p$ssing contest about paying dues, let me know.
If a company won't tell me the conditions I am to work under, then I don't take the job. It's that simple. I do not have any sympathy for those that blindly choose things in life and then complain about them afterwards. To me that is irresponsible. I have made a great effort to understand the working environment at CX and I accept that some of things are less than desireable.
White Guy-
Yes, it is association versus union. I use the terms synonymously, but I probably shouldn't. And I am also very aware that it is quite different than the USA, but thanks for pointing that out.
Fire-
Thanks for the kind words...there are quite a few bitter folks on this board it would seem.
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If a company won't tell me the conditions I am to work under, then I don't take the job. It's that simple. I do not have any sympathy for those that blindly choose things in life and then complain about them afterwards. To me that is irresponsible. I have made a great effort to understand the working environment at CX and I accept that some of things are less than desireable.
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BurgerKing is very naive...and should I say arrogant..good luck with that here at CX. I'd check that attitude at the door..you have the wrong colored passport to be acting this way. If you have only worked in the US, you have NO idea what you are getting yourself into...
Goodbye and goodluck
Goodbye and goodluck
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BK,
As you can obviously see, there are many S/O's or JFO's with a puffed chest that want to give it to a DEFO on this forum. They get brave due to anonymity. As for color of passport...that's crap! There are many Brits and Aussie's that hate North American's but also many good guys too. The ones that hate us we just hate them back!
While on Freighters, you will be flying with some good guys. When you eventually cross over, you will be a SFO and a Relief Commander. On the ULH flights you will be #2 in-charge. S/O’s are the least of your concern!
As you can obviously see, there are many S/O's or JFO's with a puffed chest that want to give it to a DEFO on this forum. They get brave due to anonymity. As for color of passport...that's crap! There are many Brits and Aussie's that hate North American's but also many good guys too. The ones that hate us we just hate them back!
While on Freighters, you will be flying with some good guys. When you eventually cross over, you will be a SFO and a Relief Commander. On the ULH flights you will be #2 in-charge. S/O’s are the least of your concern!
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guys, can you plz stop bitching and have a proper conversation instead ??
Me, for a start, am quite interested in some more elaborated explanations.
I don`t think BK meant to be belittled, he just gave some valid points.
I am wondering myself about what is better; accepting a SO position or waiting till you get the FO slot. But more and more I start to feel some aggressive vibes from all the SO`s who are feeling they are mistreated. Why the hell does CX have such a `****ty` selection process then if there are so many unhappy (with ALL the requirements for FO) SO`s ???? I just wonder
CX has always been my dream, but I dont like the idea of me getting a FO slot and a few hundred ppl wanting to put a knife in my back because I accepted that position.
The recruitment ban is over, isn`t it ?????????????????
Me, for a start, am quite interested in some more elaborated explanations.
I don`t think BK meant to be belittled, he just gave some valid points.
I am wondering myself about what is better; accepting a SO position or waiting till you get the FO slot. But more and more I start to feel some aggressive vibes from all the SO`s who are feeling they are mistreated. Why the hell does CX have such a `****ty` selection process then if there are so many unhappy (with ALL the requirements for FO) SO`s ???? I just wonder
CX has always been my dream, but I dont like the idea of me getting a FO slot and a few hundred ppl wanting to put a knife in my back because I accepted that position.
The recruitment ban is over, isn`t it ?????????????????
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BurgerKing is very naive...and should I say arrogant
777-
I don't believe that making an informed decision about my career is the same as saying I have everything figured out. Do you believe that?
Last edited by BillytheKid; 14th Feb 2007 at 03:57.
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Ok everyone... lets calm down a little.
The fact of the matter is that a lot of pilots (DESO) since SARs have joined CX with A LOT more experience then is the minimum for DESO. The majority have over 5000 hours TT with either heavy jet, command Biz jet or muli-crew turboprop. The reason the joined as an SO and not FO is simple..... there are a very limited amount of DEFO slots in Australia, none in New Zealand or South Africa and a whole lot less in Europe then the States. So the DESO way in at the time (there was no mention of DEFO pax at the time.... although it was in the COS) was the only one available. These guys and girls rightly are a little pissed that even though they have the experience, they have crew joining on THE PAX FLEET of a higher rank then them.
Once again BillytheKid.... there should be no CX SO that has a problem with you, as a DEFO on the freighter fleet has no effect on their progression.
The fact of the matter is that a lot of pilots (DESO) since SARs have joined CX with A LOT more experience then is the minimum for DESO. The majority have over 5000 hours TT with either heavy jet, command Biz jet or muli-crew turboprop. The reason the joined as an SO and not FO is simple..... there are a very limited amount of DEFO slots in Australia, none in New Zealand or South Africa and a whole lot less in Europe then the States. So the DESO way in at the time (there was no mention of DEFO pax at the time.... although it was in the COS) was the only one available. These guys and girls rightly are a little pissed that even though they have the experience, they have crew joining on THE PAX FLEET of a higher rank then them.
Once again BillytheKid.... there should be no CX SO that has a problem with you, as a DEFO on the freighter fleet has no effect on their progression.
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Nightwatch-
Agreed. I am obviously not going to change any opinions here and mine will not change when I am being insulted. I had hoped to have an adult discussion about an important subject, but I guess I was being naive.
Agreed. I am obviously not going to change any opinions here and mine will not change when I am being insulted. I had hoped to have an adult discussion about an important subject, but I guess I was being naive.
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BillyTheKid,
You're right, we're all wrong. (and irresponsible too I might add)
On another note, Cathay Pacific core management group (aka Da Brits), they just love Americans who show up and speak their minds. I encourage you to continue that attitude once you're hired. I think they might be interested in hearing what you have to tell them.
Maybe start off by suggesting how they should fly those 747s, they'd just love to hear an American perspective!
Cathay management is very open and loves constructive criticisms from employees, especially if one is an American.
You'll love it here.
You're right, we're all wrong. (and irresponsible too I might add)
On another note, Cathay Pacific core management group (aka Da Brits), they just love Americans who show up and speak their minds. I encourage you to continue that attitude once you're hired. I think they might be interested in hearing what you have to tell them.
Maybe start off by suggesting how they should fly those 747s, they'd just love to hear an American perspective!
Cathay management is very open and loves constructive criticisms from employees, especially if one is an American.
You'll love it here.
Last edited by A/T less; 14th Feb 2007 at 05:33.
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Bullsh1t, try sticking to the facts. The number may reach 30 (or more) but at the moment was 9 FO's and 2 Capt as of last week.
Hey FIRE,
The facts might be hard for you to accept mate! Those are only the F/Os that I have mentioned.
Do you think there aren't any S/Os leaving? I know of 5 that have gone in the past 6 months. Some went back to Europe (Easy), another to (jetstar), couple other guys re-joined their old companies. Another poor guy lost his family during the Tsunami then CX wouldn't let him off probation so he bailed too.
Hey FIRE,
The facts might be hard for you to accept mate! Those are only the F/Os that I have mentioned.
Do you think there aren't any S/Os leaving? I know of 5 that have gone in the past 6 months. Some went back to Europe (Easy), another to (jetstar), couple other guys re-joined their old companies. Another poor guy lost his family during the Tsunami then CX wouldn't let him off probation so he bailed too.
Last edited by A/T less; 14th Feb 2007 at 05:29.
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Wow,
must be 4 am and a million empty bottles on the table for the 'discussion' to denigrate to this.
For the SOs reading this. CX has always been able to recruit DEFOs. It did until 1996 but has always retained the right to do it. It hasn't in the past cause it is cheaper to have SOs. But now that the training system is maxing out, training courses are the limiting factor. You do not lose seniority because of DEFOs. You will get bypass pay when entitled.
Next point. Lets say CX can do only 300 courses over 12 months. For every upgrade to CN you need an FO upgrade from SO and a recruit to SO. I am going to ignore transfers between fleets to keep it simple. So basically a CN upgrade needs 3 courses. So if CX only recruits SOs it can only expand by say 100CNs. If CX hires DEFOs, it could theoretically expand by 150CNs as the other 150courses would go to DEFOs. That would be the worst case for current SOs...but if the airline can sustain a higher growth rate due to DEFO's, time to command will come faster as all SOs are senior to the DEFOs and 50 people ahead of them on the ASL were promoted to CN, and that 50 would not have been upgraded if CX didn't recruit DEFOs!
The reality is likely to be somewhere in between. A mixture of SOs and DEFOs recruited and some SOs upgraded. Of course there will be the initial influx of DEFOs as the company has stated that it is happy to overfill FO positions on 3man route basings such as Australia, and use extra FO in lieu of an SO.
I have yet to meet anyone that has any problem with a DEFO pax or freighter pilot. PPRUNE seems to have some vociferous SOs though.
To potential DEFO joiners, don't sweat it....the angst on this website is not representative of what happens in the company.
cheers and good luck!
PS A/T less, good luck in your job hunt. You are obviously too unhappy to stay here.
must be 4 am and a million empty bottles on the table for the 'discussion' to denigrate to this.
For the SOs reading this. CX has always been able to recruit DEFOs. It did until 1996 but has always retained the right to do it. It hasn't in the past cause it is cheaper to have SOs. But now that the training system is maxing out, training courses are the limiting factor. You do not lose seniority because of DEFOs. You will get bypass pay when entitled.
Next point. Lets say CX can do only 300 courses over 12 months. For every upgrade to CN you need an FO upgrade from SO and a recruit to SO. I am going to ignore transfers between fleets to keep it simple. So basically a CN upgrade needs 3 courses. So if CX only recruits SOs it can only expand by say 100CNs. If CX hires DEFOs, it could theoretically expand by 150CNs as the other 150courses would go to DEFOs. That would be the worst case for current SOs...but if the airline can sustain a higher growth rate due to DEFO's, time to command will come faster as all SOs are senior to the DEFOs and 50 people ahead of them on the ASL were promoted to CN, and that 50 would not have been upgraded if CX didn't recruit DEFOs!
The reality is likely to be somewhere in between. A mixture of SOs and DEFOs recruited and some SOs upgraded. Of course there will be the initial influx of DEFOs as the company has stated that it is happy to overfill FO positions on 3man route basings such as Australia, and use extra FO in lieu of an SO.
I have yet to meet anyone that has any problem with a DEFO pax or freighter pilot. PPRUNE seems to have some vociferous SOs though.
To potential DEFO joiners, don't sweat it....the angst on this website is not representative of what happens in the company.
cheers and good luck!
PS A/T less, good luck in your job hunt. You are obviously too unhappy to stay here.
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 14th Feb 2007 at 09:06.
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SOs I know are not generally "angry" at the DEFO pax, as the posts here would make it seem...but although a lot of them won't say it aloud, I know quite a few who are deeply disapointed at being bypassed.
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A/T less quote: " Those are only the F/Os that I have mentioned".
the fact remains that your statement "There have been over 30 guys (yanks) bailing out for jobs back in the States since Oct." is either an inocent mis representation of the facts or a blatant lie to further your arguement. We are not talking of S/O's leaving, that is not part of the discussion however perhaps you should look at your options.
the fact remains that your statement "There have been over 30 guys (yanks) bailing out for jobs back in the States since Oct." is either an inocent mis representation of the facts or a blatant lie to further your arguement. We are not talking of S/O's leaving, that is not part of the discussion however perhaps you should look at your options.
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A/T-
I looked back at your posting history and I see that you have a lot of anger which you direct towards others on this board. Back in 2003/2004 when you were interviewing you sure were a polite person. I guess since you got the SO job you don't have to fake it anymore though.
Why did you start this thread? You ask a seemingly innocent question, then turn it into DEFOPAX bashing in the very third post. If you're that angry with CX, then leave.
I looked back at your posting history and I see that you have a lot of anger which you direct towards others on this board. Back in 2003/2004 when you were interviewing you sure were a polite person. I guess since you got the SO job you don't have to fake it anymore though.
Why did you start this thread? You ask a seemingly innocent question, then turn it into DEFOPAX bashing in the very third post. If you're that angry with CX, then leave.