Defopax

[A/T less]

What's the latest on the DE FO PAX stuff?

[Harbour Dweller]

Seems to have gone a little quiet.

Guys employed as DEFO(Pax) for both SYD & AMS have started their Airbus training.

[A/T less]

I guess not quiet enough if they're here and stolen spots from S/Os.

[Harbour Dweller]

True.

Two of them are former CX S/O's who resigned. They were then employed again under the DEFO(P) conditions.

[Veruka Salt]

A/T Less,

How have "they" stolen spots from S/Os ??

[A/T less]

That question does not deserve an answer.

[Veruka Salt]

You obviously have an issue with it champ, so please elaborate . . .

[Kane Toed]

Veruka Salt posted:
...so please elaborate

Well, my guess would be that his thinking is this:

CX need 100 FOs in 2007 (approximate numbers for demonstration purposes only)
50 of these slots will now be filled by DEFOs

thus, only 50 SOs will be upgraded.

It's reasonable to assume that before DEFO on the pax fleet happened, all of the FO slots would have been filled by SOs upgrading, or freighter FO's who had done their time to rise to the top of the seniority list. If you are currently a CX SO, this might be looked upon as a 'bad thing', or perhaps that slots had been "stolen" from SOs.

Oh - no "champs" here VS, that would cause a cross cockpit authority gradient!

HTH your understanding.

[A/T less]

If you need an explanation as to why a guy would be unhappy because people are upgrading (for lack of a better term) out of seniority. Then you haven't experienced a real seniority system.

These people are "taking" (if you like that word better) a position from an S/O who have put in years to get. They're no better than the "champs" who came to CX during the recruitment ban.

They'll be the first to stab YOU in the back if/when necessary.

[Harbour Dweller]

Then you haven't experienced a real seniority system

Veruka Salt knows all too well about seniority systems.

He is also very well aware of how others can come from left field & slow down, even stop your career progression.

Just one of his reasons for leaving his former employer & joining us.

On the other hand CX has always had the ability to employ DEFO(P) and all S/O's signed this contract upon joining.

I agree it is not fair to pilots employed as S/O's. A lot of S/O's have the experience required for an FO position prior to joining CX. The company should have used this experience prior to employing DEFO(P).

Yes the system is wrong, but it's possible under our contract.

[elgringo]

REALLY, what IS NOT allowed under our contract???!!!!!!?????

[Veruka Salt]

Thanks for the perspective.

Were S/Os offered these F/O slots prior to CX hiring off the street?

[A/T less]

there's a contract?? oh yeah, that thing!!
But we all know the company only honor the stuff in the contract that benefits them.

I read something on there that I thought was funny; "the company shall not change the payscale without an officer's consent". well isn't that the 100% truth! When they handed down that big paycut during "the mess" that got us the 49ers, didn't they say "sign and accept this new offer or be sacked"? (or something to that effect).

I guess at least they were true to their words.

CATHAY PACIFIC, NOW YOU'RE REALLY FLYING!!

[A/T less]

He is also very well aware of how others can come from left field & slow down, even stop your career progression.

that'll never happen here!

OH WAIT!!! IT IS HAPPENING NOW!!!!!!!

[cpdude]

Unlike several other airlines, CX hires S/O's with a minimum of only 1000 hours single engine piston. DEFO's require 1000 hours of jet transport or command in a turbo-prop/corporate jet. On the street, the difference in years to acquire the DEFO minimum qualification from an S/O's minimum qualification point would be several years. I suspect an average of 3-5 years unless you're very fortunate.

My point is that S/O's should have their seniority frozen for 3 years and then upgrade at that point.

CX used to hire DEFO and I think they should now offer the new DEFO position to any S/O's that meet the minimum qualification of DEFO prior to their joining point at CX. Those that do not meet the minimum should be given an upgrade at the 3 year point in priority over any new-hire DEFO.

That's my 2 cents.

[Harbour Dweller]

Veruka Salt,

Were S/Os offered these F/O slots prior to CX hiring off the street?

The quick answer, NO.

DEFO(P) only have the conditions they are starting on due to the CX pilot body voting against COS07.

Had we voted for new DEFO(P) to join on COS07 you would have been starting on a salary much closer to Freighter pay. Now that would have been a paycut from your previous situation. It may have even changed you mind about joining.

Thanks to the CX pilot body we prevented that from happening to you & others joining as DEFO(P). You can now enjoy working on our current conditions.

However, under our current contract the only way for CX S/O's to take a DEFO(P) postion is to resign from CX. They will then be re-employed under DEFO(P) conditions on a base.

Problem is you lose all seniority in doing so. Rumour has it that this can be as many as 300 spots!! And for the final kick in the guts they even started behind new joiners employed off the street.

So, has this been fair for our current S/O's? No it hasn't!

In short, current S/O's (as well as most other CX pilots) stood up for DEFO(P) to have a better starting package. In return they are being thanked by having their upgrades delayed by these same DEFO(P) newly employed into CX.

[BillytheKid]

As a soon to be new joiner (DEFO) I'd like to add my two cents worth...

I did not apply to CX as an SO for this exact reason! All those that did apply as such accepted the job knowing that this was the reality. I agree that it is wrong that they are treated as such so I do empathize with them. However, I do not sympathize with them because they knew the deal and chose to take it. How many of those SO's chose the job because they could not meet the minimums for DEFO? Half? At least a quarter of them. Now because they have three years with the company, they think they should be able to alter the agreement they signed. I just do not agree with that. Again, I do agree that CX should't run the SO/FO progression as they do; it is not my job to determine how CX should run the company. If it was my job, I would start everyone off as SO and they would work their way up to command.

[Night Watch]

BillytheKid
I presume that as you come from ATL you will be a DEFO on the freighter? There is not a single SO in the company that has a problem with that! We are talking about DEFO PAX. It is the guys going on to the passenger fleet that are slowing down the SO's within the company, NOT the freighter guys. A DEFO on the freighter can't come over to the PAX fleet until he holds the seniority to do so.... therefore an SO that was hired 1 day before a DEFO freighter will be an FO before any movement by the freighter bloke to the PAX fleet.

[Kane Toed]

BillytheKid incorrectly stated:
All those that did apply as such accepted the job knowing that this was the reality

You'll find that today's reality in CX might be vastly different tomorrow. There was certainly no discussion of DEFO on the pax fleet when I joined, so I used that 'reality' to make my decision.

Furthermore I, and many current SOs meet the minimum requirements for DEFO.

[Team America]

Just enjoy the S/O job for what it is, fly somewhere for a lunch and have a few beers and come home for lots of days off. You will be upgraded hopefully in less than 4 years, and will have a command before all those DEFO pax who joined after you anyway.

You will be on bypass pay after about 3 years (as feighter guys come to pax fleet) so $50k a month for being an S/O is pretty good.

Relax, F/O spot won't happen over night, but it will happen