New Raf Ops O Post
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Oi duck Rogers, don't give the game away or you'll have them all wanting a bit. However you can't go where I am at the mo, Occifers not allowed, you're not good enough........................up the mighty shaguar! ps. is that you MB?
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Well, Well, Well i wonder who this could be?? it's either 6 or 41(F) out there at the moment so having a wild stab in the dark that must be TI or DC. I'm going for the first one at a guess. Hows sunny OSW(N)?
As for not good enough we're running 3 Ops............
As for not good enough we're running 3 Ops............
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wrong on both counts, and as for running three ops, lucky old you, however not may aeroplanes really is it?. Like I say RAF OpsO's are not good enough to work on sqns, lack the experience and cred, leave it to the professionals.. the mighty FOM.........baaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
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Mil
Obviously banter because you both know each other but at the end of the day there's not a lot to do on your average FJ Sqn is there! Apart from admin, triv, an over-employed plotter of NOTAMS and not forgetting the most important thing, stats.
Don't get me wrong, many OpsO's are somewhat short on the cred side and i believe the course is laughable at best. As with everything time is needed. Of course the branch is very political in its very creation, but as the saying goes don't tar everyone with the same brush!
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"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar; Galactica....."
Obviously banter because you both know each other but at the end of the day there's not a lot to do on your average FJ Sqn is there! Apart from admin, triv, an over-employed plotter of NOTAMS and not forgetting the most important thing, stats.
Don't get me wrong, many OpsO's are somewhat short on the cred side and i believe the course is laughable at best. As with everything time is needed. Of course the branch is very political in its very creation, but as the saying goes don't tar everyone with the same brush!
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"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar; Galactica....."
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I haven't got the tar out Apollo, but have had a couple of bad experiences. Two I met (one after the other in post) were more interested in the joys of being an officer than the nitty-gritty of, god forbid, making decisions !
I also believe that 1 person was chopped from the FOTS course once - you can only imagine how bad he was ! - didn't he get up in the morning ?
Provided the chaps are willing to listen and, dare I say it, show us a little respect, I'll certainly help em out. I was a little narked they wouldn't let me do it too - but that's a failing in OASC and, of course, my preparation to answer the dumb questions they come up with. (OASC, not JO's !)
Looking back now, I'm almost relieved I wasn't selected - I just have trouble sometimes when I see the one's they did select !
I put it down to them having a better memory for what they spent their teenage pocket money on and ability to rescue stranded hikers with a landrover with 8hrs fuel that can only travel at 32mph, nightly flooding roads, bandits who operate 8-5 and swampy areas Jul-Aug (selection interview and tests) !
If that runs Ops rooms, I haven't been watching all these years !
I also believe that 1 person was chopped from the FOTS course once - you can only imagine how bad he was ! - didn't he get up in the morning ?
Provided the chaps are willing to listen and, dare I say it, show us a little respect, I'll certainly help em out. I was a little narked they wouldn't let me do it too - but that's a failing in OASC and, of course, my preparation to answer the dumb questions they come up with. (OASC, not JO's !)
Looking back now, I'm almost relieved I wasn't selected - I just have trouble sometimes when I see the one's they did select !
I put it down to them having a better memory for what they spent their teenage pocket money on and ability to rescue stranded hikers with a landrover with 8hrs fuel that can only travel at 32mph, nightly flooding roads, bandits who operate 8-5 and swampy areas Jul-Aug (selection interview and tests) !
If that runs Ops rooms, I haven't been watching all these years !
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FOM
The very one you are on about, mentioning no names but is a bloke, is now at RAF Lyneham following a some what 'no-cred' tour at Lossiemouth. The story goes along the lines that he got chopped, did not like the decision so put in a little protest. Legal action was in there as well i believe, so at the end of the day the decision was reveresed and he passed the course and went to the WOC at Lossie.
Politics is a beast that is best avoided. My theory on the branch, it's individuals that are good or bad, each given his/her own talents and with theses they'll react to a situation and other persons.
The bad side though i hear is a former ATC officer who did 2 years as a controller did not want to control to branch changed. A year and a half as an OpsO and promotion to Sqn Ldr and posted to CAOC 9 into a job that DOES NEED aircrew experience!!!!!
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"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar; Galactica....."
The very one you are on about, mentioning no names but is a bloke, is now at RAF Lyneham following a some what 'no-cred' tour at Lossiemouth. The story goes along the lines that he got chopped, did not like the decision so put in a little protest. Legal action was in there as well i believe, so at the end of the day the decision was reveresed and he passed the course and went to the WOC at Lossie.
Politics is a beast that is best avoided. My theory on the branch, it's individuals that are good or bad, each given his/her own talents and with theses they'll react to a situation and other persons.
The bad side though i hear is a former ATC officer who did 2 years as a controller did not want to control to branch changed. A year and a half as an OpsO and promotion to Sqn Ldr and posted to CAOC 9 into a job that DOES NEED aircrew experience!!!!!
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"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar; Galactica....."
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Haven't had the joys of meeting the Lossie bloke, but he'll have to cut the mustard at LYE or the truckies will get mad 
The other 2 I met liked executive lunches and salutes, but tried to avoid aircraft and crews asking awkward questions. One was and ex-bloke (by that I mean JR - gotta be careful nowadays !) who was told he wasn't going anywhere, the other one was probably born in a manor where 'people' just did things like the job for them.
I agree that a lot of it is about personalities, but the sausage factory has gotta stop brainwashing JO's too. There are still quite a few listen too intently at IOT and take it all on board !
I believe that the FOTs course should have actually been TOO selective to begin with, so they ended up with the right people - they're out there, but we have quite a few numpties to contend with too. Hey - makes my job interesting !
As for the other branches moving in - I think they perceive it as easy money and promotion - unfortunately, right now, it is !
The other 2 I met liked executive lunches and salutes, but tried to avoid aircraft and crews asking awkward questions. One was and ex-bloke (by that I mean JR - gotta be careful nowadays !) who was told he wasn't going anywhere, the other one was probably born in a manor where 'people' just did things like the job for them.
I agree that a lot of it is about personalities, but the sausage factory has gotta stop brainwashing JO's too. There are still quite a few listen too intently at IOT and take it all on board !
I believe that the FOTs course should have actually been TOO selective to begin with, so they ended up with the right people - they're out there, but we have quite a few numpties to contend with too. Hey - makes my job interesting !
As for the other branches moving in - I think they perceive it as easy money and promotion - unfortunately, right now, it is !
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APOLLO
You're right we probably do know each other, hence the banter, however I feel you oversimplify the role of an FOM on an FJ Sqn. Quite clearly you have no real knowledge of the job or what we do, I suggest you spend a day in a single seat FJ sqn ops room and see what goes on, you will, I am confident, review your attitude. Moreover who do you think is responsible for the deployment packups et al, the running of the ops/planning room? I am sure that my OCB and Exec will disagree with you and cite OPEVAL and the numerous deployments we are involved in as examples of the importance of our role. However I will concede that the job can be dull and that working with aircrew who like to do everything for themselves makes for an unfulfilling and frustrating existence, hence my intention to leave at 22 yrs. But I stand by what I said in that FOO's are underqualified to do the job, and frankly are not good enough. I too have endured the incompetance of these people and have been flabbergasted at their ineptitude and arrogance, people with zero understanding of aircraft operations, airspace management and structure, CFMU/IFPS etc in command of vastly experienced individuals with 20 years service in this field. Little wonder that people are becoming weary and that the credibility of the FOO branch is now in tatters. I commend you to read TOTES and witness the unerdulterated drivel that permeates through its pages to appreciate the low self esteem they have of themselves and how, by crowing about their trivial exploits, they can justify their existence. I too can also point an accusing finger at the few individuals I have encountered in the past who barely got through the FOTS course and then went on to wreak havoc later, they all seem to end up at HQSTC or 2Gp, maybe it's so they can be watched and kept out of harms way. Finally, what IS worrying is that there are a few in their ranks who believe that there is a rosy future ahead. The most laughable is that some believe that FOOs will be in the back of ASTOR because of a lack of qualified WSOs/WSOPs...............
You're right we probably do know each other, hence the banter, however I feel you oversimplify the role of an FOM on an FJ Sqn. Quite clearly you have no real knowledge of the job or what we do, I suggest you spend a day in a single seat FJ sqn ops room and see what goes on, you will, I am confident, review your attitude. Moreover who do you think is responsible for the deployment packups et al, the running of the ops/planning room? I am sure that my OCB and Exec will disagree with you and cite OPEVAL and the numerous deployments we are involved in as examples of the importance of our role. However I will concede that the job can be dull and that working with aircrew who like to do everything for themselves makes for an unfulfilling and frustrating existence, hence my intention to leave at 22 yrs. But I stand by what I said in that FOO's are underqualified to do the job, and frankly are not good enough. I too have endured the incompetance of these people and have been flabbergasted at their ineptitude and arrogance, people with zero understanding of aircraft operations, airspace management and structure, CFMU/IFPS etc in command of vastly experienced individuals with 20 years service in this field. Little wonder that people are becoming weary and that the credibility of the FOO branch is now in tatters. I commend you to read TOTES and witness the unerdulterated drivel that permeates through its pages to appreciate the low self esteem they have of themselves and how, by crowing about their trivial exploits, they can justify their existence. I too can also point an accusing finger at the few individuals I have encountered in the past who barely got through the FOTS course and then went on to wreak havoc later, they all seem to end up at HQSTC or 2Gp, maybe it's so they can be watched and kept out of harms way. Finally, what IS worrying is that there are a few in their ranks who believe that there is a rosy future ahead. The most laughable is that some believe that FOOs will be in the back of ASTOR because of a lack of qualified WSOs/WSOPs...............
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Mil (aka ALH?)
Well you know my views on the branch all too well! Couldn't really comment but you are definitely right all the numties end up in 2Gp in one form or another or at HQSTC! Oh well only 3months to go, well thats about ..................well quite alot of cash in rates!
Take care mate anmd i'll give u a RAAF update soon. I resume you are in Incirlik at the mo??
cheers
MB (aka DD)
Well you know my views on the branch all too well! Couldn't really comment but you are definitely right all the numties end up in 2Gp in one form or another or at HQSTC! Oh well only 3months to go, well thats about ..................well quite alot of cash in rates!
Take care mate anmd i'll give u a RAAF update soon. I resume you are in Incirlik at the mo??
cheers
MB (aka DD)
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DD, hello matey,
Yeah I know your views very well and it's a shame the small number of good guys are being dragged down by the dross, ho hum. You know that my comments are not bile but based on fact, and as the other guys have commented, brush and tar etc, however it's very difficult not to generalise at present.
How did Oz go? Get to hear what you wanted, I hope so.
I've had a good scan of the RAAF web site, no mention of Ops there, do they have such a beast do you know? I heard rumours that they were thinking of starting an Ops Branch.
Got one week to go then Gozzome. Start planning for the next big push when we RTB.
So hows MUH, plenty of lithe ladies to keep your mind off the job I hope you lucky lad! How are the workers, keeping you on yer toes I sincerely hope, give them my regards.
MO
Yeah I know your views very well and it's a shame the small number of good guys are being dragged down by the dross, ho hum. You know that my comments are not bile but based on fact, and as the other guys have commented, brush and tar etc, however it's very difficult not to generalise at present.
How did Oz go? Get to hear what you wanted, I hope so.
I've had a good scan of the RAAF web site, no mention of Ops there, do they have such a beast do you know? I heard rumours that they were thinking of starting an Ops Branch.
Got one week to go then Gozzome. Start planning for the next big push when we RTB.
So hows MUH, plenty of lithe ladies to keep your mind off the job I hope you lucky lad! How are the workers, keeping you on yer toes I sincerely hope, give them my regards.
MO
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Hi 04
Interesting that you're swimming against the flow from BA, but equally if you've got your head screwed on there's lots of scope to get on (and, right now, even if you haven't....sadly !)
The most promising thing you said was the last comment - would appreciate any help - and that will get results from the FOMs (Flight Ops Managers) who are the enlisted senior NCO's.
That said, beware of the bitter ones !!
In very short summary, the branch provides a link between ATC, the crews and many other agencies, from the Int people, taskers, engineers etc. A similar job would be the BA Ops team.
The FOTS course lasts about 10 ? weeks or so and gives you a basic grounding in Ops type stuff, but much of it you probably won't use in any capacity. Your first post will be as a junior ops officer, perhaps a computer system manager, or a squadron ops officer, although you could get thrown literally anywhere - tasking, Int, flight safety officer - the field is very broad.
The biggest problem with the branch right now is it's fairly new, so where a crusty old pilot once sat and calmly read papers, now a fresh-faced junior officer enters with no flying experience. Working with 'the chaps' for a few years builds that experience, but you haven't got that luxury. Credibility is a snag right now for the whole branch for that very reason.
In your shoes, my advice would be, pass the course (because failure is unheard of !!), and when you get to your new post, say very little for the first couple of weeks. Watch the people who cut the mustard and note those who only claim to ! After a couple of weeks, latch on to 'Bloggs' who you rate and try and wrangle it so you're in charge of his watch. (by Bloggs I suggest either an experienced corporal, sergeant or, in rare circumstances another officer !)
Don't be afraid to learn the 'airman's stuff' before trying to command them - I'm not suggesting you go on to do it everyday, but at least be capable of doing it once. Other than that, keep your ears open every day and your experience will grow.
Finally, try and avoid the 'secondary duty' ratrace for a few months whilst you concentrate on the job - a bunch of FOO's I dealt with recently were great at organising hockey teams and barbecues, but crap at the real stuff !!
Hope this helps - don't know your background so this may sound very noddy. If you have any questions, feel free to fire away.
Interesting that you're swimming against the flow from BA, but equally if you've got your head screwed on there's lots of scope to get on (and, right now, even if you haven't....sadly !)
The most promising thing you said was the last comment - would appreciate any help - and that will get results from the FOMs (Flight Ops Managers) who are the enlisted senior NCO's.
That said, beware of the bitter ones !!
In very short summary, the branch provides a link between ATC, the crews and many other agencies, from the Int people, taskers, engineers etc. A similar job would be the BA Ops team.
The FOTS course lasts about 10 ? weeks or so and gives you a basic grounding in Ops type stuff, but much of it you probably won't use in any capacity. Your first post will be as a junior ops officer, perhaps a computer system manager, or a squadron ops officer, although you could get thrown literally anywhere - tasking, Int, flight safety officer - the field is very broad.
The biggest problem with the branch right now is it's fairly new, so where a crusty old pilot once sat and calmly read papers, now a fresh-faced junior officer enters with no flying experience. Working with 'the chaps' for a few years builds that experience, but you haven't got that luxury. Credibility is a snag right now for the whole branch for that very reason.
In your shoes, my advice would be, pass the course (because failure is unheard of !!), and when you get to your new post, say very little for the first couple of weeks. Watch the people who cut the mustard and note those who only claim to ! After a couple of weeks, latch on to 'Bloggs' who you rate and try and wrangle it so you're in charge of his watch. (by Bloggs I suggest either an experienced corporal, sergeant or, in rare circumstances another officer !)
Don't be afraid to learn the 'airman's stuff' before trying to command them - I'm not suggesting you go on to do it everyday, but at least be capable of doing it once. Other than that, keep your ears open every day and your experience will grow.
Finally, try and avoid the 'secondary duty' ratrace for a few months whilst you concentrate on the job - a bunch of FOO's I dealt with recently were great at organising hockey teams and barbecues, but crap at the real stuff !!
Hope this helps - don't know your background so this may sound very noddy. If you have any questions, feel free to fire away.
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Hmm, why Flt Ops?
I would thoroughly recommend that you dispense with the brochure showing Flt Lt Miggins sitting in Ops at Goose Bay and rethink this one.
The job is less than 5 years old and fighting for cred. The RAF is instutionalised and slow to embrace change. The pilot is King. Therefore you will ALWAYS find youself in situations where doors will be closed because you're not, and never were aircrew.
Ops is an aviation related position, and as such deserves the recognition accordingly, after all without it the whole process will very quickely dry up. therefore it is particularly irksome to be constantly undermined by people with a dead budgie on their chest.
I you refer to APOLLOs post, above,regarding an undividual being posted to a job where it was felt that it was an aircrew job. Utter hoop, if people are given the correct training and opportunites what's yer problem! Says a lot about the RAFs attitude to Equal Opportunities and valuing individuals contributions etc.
The brighter members of the fraternity see this and complain that the job is unfullfilling, with no sense of purpose and very poor job satisfaction. On many units FOOs are under employed so they end up carrying out the secondary duties that nobody else wants to do, filling their time with writing visiting instructions, dealing with flying complaints and so on.
There is also the added problem that the flight operations managers, FOM (SNCOs) and flight operations assistants,FOA (Airmen) come under the ATC Branch for training, career issues etc, and have actually had a far more useful initial training than their commissioned counterparts and are employed in a far more diverse environment, from ATC towers to Sqn Ops, to Stn Ops and so on. At present the FOTS course doesn't adequately cover aircraft ops areas, seriously undermining their credibility, in fact there is nothing an OpsO can do that a Cpl couldn't do, and in fact does routinely. The on the job training that should exist at unit level is non existant, due in the main to idleness and the ridiculously short tours these poor people have to endure, which results in a disproportionate reliance on the SNCOs to provide the training. This further weakens the structure as the SNCOs have a primary duty for the training and welfare of their airmen/women, not their bl00dy officers
Also, something you won't hear a lot of, but like any organisation, budgets are now a fundemental feature of daily life. Stn Cdrs now hold the entire Budget for their units, which includes the wages for all the personnel located there. Growing numbers of units are scrutinising the wage bill and endeavouring to assess whether a task can be achieved more economically. When it comes to ops rooms the answer is yes. The result, yup you've guessed it, replace OpsOs with SNCOs, they're cheaper far more experienced, understand the 'company' procedures and so on. Two units in particular have alledgedly started to implement this policy already. At my unit, it is hoped that two OpsO slots will go, thus saving the unit in excess of 100 grand.
All in all not a satisfactory state of affairs, the Branch presently conducts yearly 'seminars' around the RAF, an opportunity for feedback and a forum for everybody to be apart of the way ahead, unfortunately there are so many dissillusioned OpsOs that it looks like a radical rethink is needed.
If I were you I would seriously rethink your options and maybe consider Int or ATC.
I would thoroughly recommend that you dispense with the brochure showing Flt Lt Miggins sitting in Ops at Goose Bay and rethink this one.
The job is less than 5 years old and fighting for cred. The RAF is instutionalised and slow to embrace change. The pilot is King. Therefore you will ALWAYS find youself in situations where doors will be closed because you're not, and never were aircrew.
Ops is an aviation related position, and as such deserves the recognition accordingly, after all without it the whole process will very quickely dry up. therefore it is particularly irksome to be constantly undermined by people with a dead budgie on their chest.
I you refer to APOLLOs post, above,regarding an undividual being posted to a job where it was felt that it was an aircrew job. Utter hoop, if people are given the correct training and opportunites what's yer problem! Says a lot about the RAFs attitude to Equal Opportunities and valuing individuals contributions etc.
The brighter members of the fraternity see this and complain that the job is unfullfilling, with no sense of purpose and very poor job satisfaction. On many units FOOs are under employed so they end up carrying out the secondary duties that nobody else wants to do, filling their time with writing visiting instructions, dealing with flying complaints and so on.
There is also the added problem that the flight operations managers, FOM (SNCOs) and flight operations assistants,FOA (Airmen) come under the ATC Branch for training, career issues etc, and have actually had a far more useful initial training than their commissioned counterparts and are employed in a far more diverse environment, from ATC towers to Sqn Ops, to Stn Ops and so on. At present the FOTS course doesn't adequately cover aircraft ops areas, seriously undermining their credibility, in fact there is nothing an OpsO can do that a Cpl couldn't do, and in fact does routinely. The on the job training that should exist at unit level is non existant, due in the main to idleness and the ridiculously short tours these poor people have to endure, which results in a disproportionate reliance on the SNCOs to provide the training. This further weakens the structure as the SNCOs have a primary duty for the training and welfare of their airmen/women, not their bl00dy officers
Also, something you won't hear a lot of, but like any organisation, budgets are now a fundemental feature of daily life. Stn Cdrs now hold the entire Budget for their units, which includes the wages for all the personnel located there. Growing numbers of units are scrutinising the wage bill and endeavouring to assess whether a task can be achieved more economically. When it comes to ops rooms the answer is yes. The result, yup you've guessed it, replace OpsOs with SNCOs, they're cheaper far more experienced, understand the 'company' procedures and so on. Two units in particular have alledgedly started to implement this policy already. At my unit, it is hoped that two OpsO slots will go, thus saving the unit in excess of 100 grand.
All in all not a satisfactory state of affairs, the Branch presently conducts yearly 'seminars' around the RAF, an opportunity for feedback and a forum for everybody to be apart of the way ahead, unfortunately there are so many dissillusioned OpsOs that it looks like a radical rethink is needed.
If I were you I would seriously rethink your options and maybe consider Int or ATC.
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Currently your BA duties pretty much mirror exactly those of an SAC working in Stn Ops on an RAF unit. At SNCO level, which by the way takes on average 15 years to achieve in todays modern RAF, you are performing broadly similar duties as your JO commissioned bretheren. However due to the way the system works, the final decision, will always come from an officer, even if he has to refer back to his SNCO for expert advice and reassurance.
As an OpsO you will be heavily involved in paper work and secondary duties, something that is a prerequisite for a successful career I'm afraid. Whether you like it or not what you do in your spare time is directly related to your success in the service. Notwithstanding FOMere2's comments, most JO's are expected to show initiative and seek out some extra curricular activity pretty much on arrival. Demonstrates character and capacity. If you don't one will be chosen for you! He is however spot on with the rest of his advice. Don't expect an exciting or challenging life as an OpsO, but if you are academically qualified I would recommend the Commissioned route every time. Life style, pay and pension are better.
Maybe you can give me some advice. I am soon to come out at the other end and am looking at careers in civil aviation. As an ex SNCO where would I reasonably expect to slot in. I intend to take the FAA Dispatch licence and the ICAO FOO licence. Any good? Also what's the pay and conditions like, etc etc.
As an OpsO you will be heavily involved in paper work and secondary duties, something that is a prerequisite for a successful career I'm afraid. Whether you like it or not what you do in your spare time is directly related to your success in the service. Notwithstanding FOMere2's comments, most JO's are expected to show initiative and seek out some extra curricular activity pretty much on arrival. Demonstrates character and capacity. If you don't one will be chosen for you! He is however spot on with the rest of his advice. Don't expect an exciting or challenging life as an OpsO, but if you are academically qualified I would recommend the Commissioned route every time. Life style, pay and pension are better.
Maybe you can give me some advice. I am soon to come out at the other end and am looking at careers in civil aviation. As an ex SNCO where would I reasonably expect to slot in. I intend to take the FAA Dispatch licence and the ICAO FOO licence. Any good? Also what's the pay and conditions like, etc etc.
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QJK04, It's a pleasure to be of assistance.
I'm not due to leave, on my current contract, for another 10 years, however I can opt to leave at my 22 year point in 2.5 yrs, with an immediate pension at the age of 40. If I stay on I would be entering a very competitive market at age 47, bit old methinks.
I live in East Anglia so Stansted and Norwich are options, as is Cambridge. My preferred choice is Stansted, so leaving at age 40 would at least give me a chance at a second career.
Ops isn't the only avenue in aviation I'm considering however, there is bush pilot or crop duster in Africa or South America that appeal. Currently investigating this one but I feel that this might not be really practical given my age, eyesight, work permits and the type of flying I want to do. Wonder what the chances are in Alaska?
There is heaven forbid the option of staying in the RAF, but something tells me that I would be copping out and that one day I will wake up and review my life and realise that that was it.
I'm not due to leave, on my current contract, for another 10 years, however I can opt to leave at my 22 year point in 2.5 yrs, with an immediate pension at the age of 40. If I stay on I would be entering a very competitive market at age 47, bit old methinks.
I live in East Anglia so Stansted and Norwich are options, as is Cambridge. My preferred choice is Stansted, so leaving at age 40 would at least give me a chance at a second career.
Ops isn't the only avenue in aviation I'm considering however, there is bush pilot or crop duster in Africa or South America that appeal. Currently investigating this one but I feel that this might not be really practical given my age, eyesight, work permits and the type of flying I want to do. Wonder what the chances are in Alaska?
There is heaven forbid the option of staying in the RAF, but something tells me that I would be copping out and that one day I will wake up and review my life and realise that that was it.
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DH98 makes some very valid points and MilOps' contradiction of the secondary duty scenario is probably apposite.
Going back to DH98, he's right in so much as JO's in Ops do tend to get quite a few niff-naff jobs because they haven't generally got the experience to be trusted with much else. Moreover, from the (good old ?) days of having aircrew in the chair, it's become a career path nowadays. A comparison I will try and share is of ATC officers - they all fundamentally control aircraft and it's difficult to control 'better' than the controller next to you. That often leads to an overweighted reliance on secondary duties because it's normally only 'secondaries' that make you stand out from the crowd. This leads to a lot of bitching in your average ATC !
I've already seen Ops rooms, with several JO's, start to turn this way.
That said, if you're on the ball and able to concentrate on learning the job back to front, upside down and in French, I still think you'll be able to get on - not least because many JO's prefer to concentrate on the secondary duty route. I can probably summarise by saying you need gumption, balls and effective intelligence - if you've got that, the respect is there to be had. If you play politics, have no backbone and aren't really interested in the job as more than a means to get on, you'll be spotted !
Due to the variety of Ops jobs, the FOTS course will be of little value to you - especially with your BA background - something like the TV show 'Now Get Out of That' (if you remember it) would be much better training, where you're left in a tricky spot with limited time and have to think laterally.
As MilOps says though, getting through the gate as an officer is the way ahead - quite simply because you're treated as a grown-up. How you conduct business once you're past the IOT door is up to you...
Going back to DH98, he's right in so much as JO's in Ops do tend to get quite a few niff-naff jobs because they haven't generally got the experience to be trusted with much else. Moreover, from the (good old ?) days of having aircrew in the chair, it's become a career path nowadays. A comparison I will try and share is of ATC officers - they all fundamentally control aircraft and it's difficult to control 'better' than the controller next to you. That often leads to an overweighted reliance on secondary duties because it's normally only 'secondaries' that make you stand out from the crowd. This leads to a lot of bitching in your average ATC !
I've already seen Ops rooms, with several JO's, start to turn this way.
That said, if you're on the ball and able to concentrate on learning the job back to front, upside down and in French, I still think you'll be able to get on - not least because many JO's prefer to concentrate on the secondary duty route. I can probably summarise by saying you need gumption, balls and effective intelligence - if you've got that, the respect is there to be had. If you play politics, have no backbone and aren't really interested in the job as more than a means to get on, you'll be spotted !
Due to the variety of Ops jobs, the FOTS course will be of little value to you - especially with your BA background - something like the TV show 'Now Get Out of That' (if you remember it) would be much better training, where you're left in a tricky spot with limited time and have to think laterally.
As MilOps says though, getting through the gate as an officer is the way ahead - quite simply because you're treated as a grown-up. How you conduct business once you're past the IOT door is up to you...
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Gentlemen,
What i am about to say its the truth in its entirity with certain elements covered up. Mil Ops will be able verify many aspects of what i have said.
Where to start? The course, it is nothing more than a joke! An overstretched version of what the FOA's assistants course is at Shawbury. What they should be teaching is the larger picture, what i term the mil ops 'rotti and narn.' That is being able to prep Mission Folders for crews embarking on a sortie; in essence the ability to dissect information from daily ATO's, ACOS's and SPINS, liaise directly to the HQ and ensure that all aspects are covered. Lets face it this is what is done once any JOO leaves his 'comfort zone' in his nice hardened WOC. There is a whole host of further issues such as dip clears, fuel fig calcs etc that must be learnt on the job. Enough about that!
My place of work then. As Mil will confirm i have 2xSgts (FOM's), 2xCpls who works for me (one should really be a Sgt) and several FOA's. It is these people WHO RUN the ops rooms in the RAF. We presently have 3x Ops O's and we are not even a 24hr unit! We are here as supposed 'top cover' and decision makers. In reality 99.9% of these decisions can be made by a Sgt and senior Cpl. As for Ops O's on Sqns, Mil step in any time, all i can say really is why? I have mates on some F3 Sqns and essentially all they are is an extra admin clerk to do sqn VI's and other gash jobs that the aircrew palm off that need Officers to do. Unfortunately 2Gp seem to believe that Ops O's in all departments is the way forward. It has got to the stage where Ascots Ops Controllers will only speak to us Ops O's because, they have the opinion that the FOM's on my unit, A and P, cannot be trusted despite them running transops and tanker trails!!!!
DH98, as for secondary duties. Yeap i'm one of those who was told when i arrived at my nice pointy jet unit that your secondary duty will be CCIS SIM. As Mil will verify i'm not interested in network management of computers but have soldiered on and i'm sure Mil may agree, have not done a bad job. At the end of the day my job is boring and only find solitude when i go and spend quality sciving time at Mils gaff in his nice planning room, the gym or hanging around the Int section. A job i am qualified for but the RAF and their CRAP selection policies said no!
On the issue of people competing for recognition one of the guys i work with is this man. He has more secondary duties coming out the ying yang than a man with 20 arms.
I am utterly demotivated and see no future staying in my present employment in a branch which is politically directed at Air rank level. As those who now me ia m 100% for the RAF and most of the Ops we undertake, but unfortunately get demotivated with some of the muppets in the branch you wanted to do.
Even though this is an open forum and many will be able to deduce who i am because of my present location. Lets just call it an on air symposium where people can air their views without retribution! My final comment is QJK04 if you intend to join then so be it but DO look at other branches, especially Int and good luck!
Mil, i'll see you back in the UK in August. Bu the news is good and bad though, gotta leave the RAF before they will confirm employment for the other firm. Give me 12 months and a little cash saved and that's me done!
Opinions, Questions, Comments?
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The Warbler, again? Oh go on then!
What i am about to say its the truth in its entirity with certain elements covered up. Mil Ops will be able verify many aspects of what i have said.
Where to start? The course, it is nothing more than a joke! An overstretched version of what the FOA's assistants course is at Shawbury. What they should be teaching is the larger picture, what i term the mil ops 'rotti and narn.' That is being able to prep Mission Folders for crews embarking on a sortie; in essence the ability to dissect information from daily ATO's, ACOS's and SPINS, liaise directly to the HQ and ensure that all aspects are covered. Lets face it this is what is done once any JOO leaves his 'comfort zone' in his nice hardened WOC. There is a whole host of further issues such as dip clears, fuel fig calcs etc that must be learnt on the job. Enough about that!
My place of work then. As Mil will confirm i have 2xSgts (FOM's), 2xCpls who works for me (one should really be a Sgt) and several FOA's. It is these people WHO RUN the ops rooms in the RAF. We presently have 3x Ops O's and we are not even a 24hr unit! We are here as supposed 'top cover' and decision makers. In reality 99.9% of these decisions can be made by a Sgt and senior Cpl. As for Ops O's on Sqns, Mil step in any time, all i can say really is why? I have mates on some F3 Sqns and essentially all they are is an extra admin clerk to do sqn VI's and other gash jobs that the aircrew palm off that need Officers to do. Unfortunately 2Gp seem to believe that Ops O's in all departments is the way forward. It has got to the stage where Ascots Ops Controllers will only speak to us Ops O's because, they have the opinion that the FOM's on my unit, A and P, cannot be trusted despite them running transops and tanker trails!!!!
DH98, as for secondary duties. Yeap i'm one of those who was told when i arrived at my nice pointy jet unit that your secondary duty will be CCIS SIM. As Mil will verify i'm not interested in network management of computers but have soldiered on and i'm sure Mil may agree, have not done a bad job. At the end of the day my job is boring and only find solitude when i go and spend quality sciving time at Mils gaff in his nice planning room, the gym or hanging around the Int section. A job i am qualified for but the RAF and their CRAP selection policies said no!
On the issue of people competing for recognition one of the guys i work with is this man. He has more secondary duties coming out the ying yang than a man with 20 arms.
I am utterly demotivated and see no future staying in my present employment in a branch which is politically directed at Air rank level. As those who now me ia m 100% for the RAF and most of the Ops we undertake, but unfortunately get demotivated with some of the muppets in the branch you wanted to do.
Even though this is an open forum and many will be able to deduce who i am because of my present location. Lets just call it an on air symposium where people can air their views without retribution! My final comment is QJK04 if you intend to join then so be it but DO look at other branches, especially Int and good luck!
Mil, i'll see you back in the UK in August. Bu the news is good and bad though, gotta leave the RAF before they will confirm employment for the other firm. Give me 12 months and a little cash saved and that's me done!
Opinions, Questions, Comments?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Warbler, again? Oh go on then!
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Ex OSM Tells all
Well Gents
Having just read all you have written I am glad I left 6yrs ago,my life in aviation up till now has been somewhat up and down (its down at the mo Due to my last empolyer going..well thats an other story)
All I can say is that the skys the limit ,,,but it does rain sometimes and you got to get a foot in the door ,,,Its hard work but once in you cann get a long way quickly,,some of the airlines out there are well aware of how Ex Mil guys work and will be more then happy to take you on,,but so have had real bad times with ex mil guys and are not that sure ,,you just got to prove them wrong,,as for me well I did some work for free for an airline/airport befroe I left and it was a real eye opener ...try it some love an extra hand for free,,worked on the line as well as ops for one which proved a life saver later,,,so good luck to you any qustions just drop me a line
Having just read all you have written I am glad I left 6yrs ago,my life in aviation up till now has been somewhat up and down (its down at the mo Due to my last empolyer going..well thats an other story)
All I can say is that the skys the limit ,,,but it does rain sometimes and you got to get a foot in the door ,,,Its hard work but once in you cann get a long way quickly,,some of the airlines out there are well aware of how Ex Mil guys work and will be more then happy to take you on,,but so have had real bad times with ex mil guys and are not that sure ,,you just got to prove them wrong,,as for me well I did some work for free for an airline/airport befroe I left and it was a real eye opener ...try it some love an extra hand for free,,worked on the line as well as ops for one which proved a life saver later,,,so good luck to you any qustions just drop me a line
Join Date: May 1999
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I often have ex service types enquiring about qualifications to enter civil airline ops, for those interested note the posting on the ICAO FOO course at the Glasgow College Nautical Studies. I believe the College will be contacting the RAF/RN to gain acceptance as a re-settlement training course. Also, our Ops salaries range from £17K to £32K for Duty Managers. Ex RAF Ops officer with the either the ICAO FOO or FAA licence and experience could reasonably expect to start in at £21K
Thought you might be interested.
Thought you might be interested.
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Because you get to go everywhere, see whats happening and have a good laugh. Job wise its very varied as well, first tour could be as a duty watch officer (DWO) at the AWC at RAF Waddington or employed as Dep St Into, second tour either stn into or Squinto on a sqn which is tip top. If you choose the imagery path could go to Brampton then for a second tour at a RIC (Harriers / Jags / toncas).
You can even do language courses and do humint, basically gathering int on the ground by merging in with the local culture and picking stuff up from the general mood of the populous.
This is only a very brief outline, best thing to do is arrange a visit to Marham / Cottesmore or Coltishall where there is a large recce in presnnce.
At the end of the day don't take my word for it go and see for yourself. Im just pro the job as ITS WHAT I SHOULD BLOODY be doing but some chisling Group Captain witha bur up his arse decided otherwise.
You can even do language courses and do humint, basically gathering int on the ground by merging in with the local culture and picking stuff up from the general mood of the populous.
This is only a very brief outline, best thing to do is arrange a visit to Marham / Cottesmore or Coltishall where there is a large recce in presnnce.
At the end of the day don't take my word for it go and see for yourself. Im just pro the job as ITS WHAT I SHOULD BLOODY be doing but some chisling Group Captain witha bur up his arse decided otherwise.