Quit Aviation Now. There are No Jobs
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I disagree. I graduated my avionics course in June and got a job offer just this afternoon from what is perhaps the nation's best airline. But not before:
4 phone interveiws,
2 group interviews,
3 formal interviews,
14 days of work experience 500km away from my home paying for accommodation at my own expense;
Driving thousands of kilometers up, down and all around the east coast of Australia showing up on doorsteps at regional airports I knew nothing about handing in resumes in person.
I applied at 17 businesses since I graduated, I even considered flight simulators. There are jobs if you try hard enough. Yes Aviation Australia is full of lies but you have to see passed that and realise it's a very competitive industry and probably >50% of the graduates are "unemployable". Companies want you to "fit their mould" because they have found that in the past, certain types of people work better than others.
4 phone interveiws,
2 group interviews,
3 formal interviews,
14 days of work experience 500km away from my home paying for accommodation at my own expense;
Driving thousands of kilometers up, down and all around the east coast of Australia showing up on doorsteps at regional airports I knew nothing about handing in resumes in person.
I applied at 17 businesses since I graduated, I even considered flight simulators. There are jobs if you try hard enough. Yes Aviation Australia is full of lies but you have to see passed that and realise it's a very competitive industry and probably >50% of the graduates are "unemployable". Companies want you to "fit their mould" because they have found that in the past, certain types of people work better than others.
Last edited by Degrees; 22nd Dec 2010 at 12:06.
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Right a little bit more background for those who have not read my other posts.
I have completed both mechanical and avionics exams to EASA standard. I finished at the top of my mechanical class. I did avionics to broaden my appeal to potential employers (and to actually get a mechanical license there is a requirement to have completed Modules 3 and 4 I believe but to a lessor standard). My ultimate aim is to be qualified in both. If pressed I would prefer avionics first but it really doesn't matter.
All my instructors have rated me favourably and I have seen their evaluation of me as being excellent. I got on well with classmates, did the work, understood the tasks, worked as team player, understood the concepts, etc. I really struggle to see how this does not translate into a least an interview.
I have applied for something like 14 roles in the past year. I didn't really care where they were (e.g. NT, WA, north Qld, etc) or who they were. Despite all of the above I CANNOT get an interview. I have asked repeatedly for employer feedback and it is not readily forthcoming. In particular my agency makes out that is the responsibility of employer and not them. Yet after so many goes can they at least explain to me why I have not at least made an interview.
I have completed both mechanical and avionics exams to EASA standard. I finished at the top of my mechanical class. I did avionics to broaden my appeal to potential employers (and to actually get a mechanical license there is a requirement to have completed Modules 3 and 4 I believe but to a lessor standard). My ultimate aim is to be qualified in both. If pressed I would prefer avionics first but it really doesn't matter.
All my instructors have rated me favourably and I have seen their evaluation of me as being excellent. I got on well with classmates, did the work, understood the tasks, worked as team player, understood the concepts, etc. I really struggle to see how this does not translate into a least an interview.
I have applied for something like 14 roles in the past year. I didn't really care where they were (e.g. NT, WA, north Qld, etc) or who they were. Despite all of the above I CANNOT get an interview. I have asked repeatedly for employer feedback and it is not readily forthcoming. In particular my agency makes out that is the responsibility of employer and not them. Yet after so many goes can they at least explain to me why I have not at least made an interview.
This is important because it means your initial post has no credibility. Sorry you feel despondent about the state of the industry, but you haven't even started yet. It's a little early to give up. If you give up this easily, this early, then you were out of place in this business before you ever began.
QANTAS recruitment is now run by HR. I failed QANTAS psychometric evaluation and only because I pressed them did I get any answers.. The days of being the best are gone and now you have to conform to a "standard". Fall outside of the standard and you are not wanted.
How do you know what the good old days were like? You never worked in them.
You're aware that working for an airline is all about standardization and conforming, right?
You feel that you couldn't get the job because Qantas isn't looking for the best, but for conformists. What makes you think that having come from school, seeking work as an apprentice, with no experience, that you're "the best?" Little wonder you failed the exam.
Why is it that lesser quality students are GIVEN employment (the lowest two in my class were practically given jobs) yet the more capable are still wondering what they are lacking. When half my class are employed before or when they leave the school, it leaves a very sour taste in my mouth when months later nothing has changed for me.
Perhaps employers prefer to hire an employee who's just a little more humble and a lot less arrogant. You don't have the experience or background to support your arrogance. Drop it, and you might stand a chance.
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Just had a quick look at the Aviation Australia Website and a couple of things come to mind straightaway (well three actually...)
1) Avionics (quote)
This is a full time course consisting of 38 weeks of structured theory and practical tuition.
38 weeks to cover; Course Modules;
Mathematics
Aerodynamics
Physics
Electrical
Human Factors
Aircraft Aerodynamics & Flight Control Systems
Electronic Fundamentals
Aircraft Systems (Autoflight)
Digital Techniques
Aircraft Systems (Electrical)
Aircraft Systems (Instruments Pitot Static)
Aircraft Systems (Instruments Gyroscopic)
Aircraft Systems (Instruments Other)
Aircraft Systems (Communication)
Aircraft Systems (Navigation)
Aircraft Systems (Airframe)
Aircraft Systems (Propulsion)
Maintenance Practices Avionics
Maintenance Practices General
Basic Maintenance Practices Structures
Aircraft Structures
Aircraft Material and Corrosion
Aircraft Hardware
Aircraft Electrical Hardware
OH&S in Aviation
Aircraft Handling, Maintenance Procedures & Inspections
38 weeks doesn't even scratch the surface...
2) Mechanical (quote)
This is a full time course consisting of 38 weeks of structured theory and practical tuition.
3) Structures (quote)
This is a full time course consisting of 34 weeks of structured theory and practical tuition.
So you elect to do all three courses say; then what?
After a total of 110 classroom weeks you know all there is to know about aircraft right?
God's gift to the industry right?
Totally wrong; in fact you know next to nothing and to most employers who are looking for experience you are a total waste of space.
I cannot speak for the structures guys or the engine guys but for Avionics I would say this;
To fully comprehend just the communications aspect of avionics alone requires a minimum of 15 months of continuous training; and then there's 15 months of radar training.
It puts me in mind of the wunderkinds who passed out from Brunel College after obtaining the old 5 Avionics licences; Comms, Radar, Nav Systems, Electrics and Instruments. Brainy as bu**ery but for the most part, absolutely useless when let loose on an aircraft. The company I worked for before I retired, sponsored and employed such a person and frankly was pleased when said person decided to go back home to Oz.
Apprenticeships are few and far between in any walk of life these days; why should an employer legally tie himself to someone who may prove totally useless, when they can get some kid off the street who is as keen as mustard, pay him peanuts or whatever the government specified minimum wage is, and then kick him out when times get rough.
So for a 34 year old, probably what you say is true...
Too little, too late.
pp
1) Avionics (quote)
This is a full time course consisting of 38 weeks of structured theory and practical tuition.
38 weeks to cover; Course Modules;
Mathematics
Aerodynamics
Physics
Electrical
Human Factors
Aircraft Aerodynamics & Flight Control Systems
Electronic Fundamentals
Aircraft Systems (Autoflight)
Digital Techniques
Aircraft Systems (Electrical)
Aircraft Systems (Instruments Pitot Static)
Aircraft Systems (Instruments Gyroscopic)
Aircraft Systems (Instruments Other)
Aircraft Systems (Communication)
Aircraft Systems (Navigation)
Aircraft Systems (Airframe)
Aircraft Systems (Propulsion)
Maintenance Practices Avionics
Maintenance Practices General
Basic Maintenance Practices Structures
Aircraft Structures
Aircraft Material and Corrosion
Aircraft Hardware
Aircraft Electrical Hardware
OH&S in Aviation
Aircraft Handling, Maintenance Procedures & Inspections
38 weeks doesn't even scratch the surface...
2) Mechanical (quote)
This is a full time course consisting of 38 weeks of structured theory and practical tuition.
3) Structures (quote)
This is a full time course consisting of 34 weeks of structured theory and practical tuition.
So you elect to do all three courses say; then what?
After a total of 110 classroom weeks you know all there is to know about aircraft right?
God's gift to the industry right?
Totally wrong; in fact you know next to nothing and to most employers who are looking for experience you are a total waste of space.
I cannot speak for the structures guys or the engine guys but for Avionics I would say this;
To fully comprehend just the communications aspect of avionics alone requires a minimum of 15 months of continuous training; and then there's 15 months of radar training.
It puts me in mind of the wunderkinds who passed out from Brunel College after obtaining the old 5 Avionics licences; Comms, Radar, Nav Systems, Electrics and Instruments. Brainy as bu**ery but for the most part, absolutely useless when let loose on an aircraft. The company I worked for before I retired, sponsored and employed such a person and frankly was pleased when said person decided to go back home to Oz.
Apprenticeships are few and far between in any walk of life these days; why should an employer legally tie himself to someone who may prove totally useless, when they can get some kid off the street who is as keen as mustard, pay him peanuts or whatever the government specified minimum wage is, and then kick him out when times get rough.
So for a 34 year old, probably what you say is true...
Too little, too late.
pp
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phalconphixer
Thats the way it is nowadays, Most CAAs around the world close ranks about the new EASA system which approves this 37 weeks course for a basic knowledge about A/C systems, It took me about 2 years to finish my avionics course in the 147 school from which I graduated (both practical training and theoritical), I still know next to nothing but I'm trying to cover the areas of defecencies (by reading extra material in my free time and researching onto whatever I dont know), Its not like if I did a 15 months training of communication solely I would know ''everything'' it's hard to claim to know everything, you need to somehow embody what you had studied in your theoritical classes to have a good perspective about it and here comes the work experience part, I'd say work experience is the most essential factor in determining who will be hired by employers and thats what he lacks currently.
That said I think he still has a potential I know his age could be a stumbling block onto getting an apprenticeship but he can still get in as a technecian and work his way up to engineering if he really wants to, Tries hard enough and stop being a pessemist.
Thats the way it is nowadays, Most CAAs around the world close ranks about the new EASA system which approves this 37 weeks course for a basic knowledge about A/C systems, It took me about 2 years to finish my avionics course in the 147 school from which I graduated (both practical training and theoritical), I still know next to nothing but I'm trying to cover the areas of defecencies (by reading extra material in my free time and researching onto whatever I dont know), Its not like if I did a 15 months training of communication solely I would know ''everything'' it's hard to claim to know everything, you need to somehow embody what you had studied in your theoritical classes to have a good perspective about it and here comes the work experience part, I'd say work experience is the most essential factor in determining who will be hired by employers and thats what he lacks currently.
That said I think he still has a potential I know his age could be a stumbling block onto getting an apprenticeship but he can still get in as a technecian and work his way up to engineering if he really wants to, Tries hard enough and stop being a pessemist.
Thread Starter
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Aviation Australia has only one role to fulfil.
That is to get as many students to pass the exams. That is really their only requirement. They do say that government funding is tied to job placements but the statistics can be broken down in a number of ways.
I (and others like me) feel screwed over by a system where despite doing all the right things at school, we never progress any further. Employers are discriminating (and I would say on age despite suggestions otherwise) because a 20 year old is still cheaper to employ and can be kicked harder than a mid-30 year old.
I've run out of job avenues to pursue as I don't know where to go next.
That is to get as many students to pass the exams. That is really their only requirement. They do say that government funding is tied to job placements but the statistics can be broken down in a number of ways.
I (and others like me) feel screwed over by a system where despite doing all the right things at school, we never progress any further. Employers are discriminating (and I would say on age despite suggestions otherwise) because a 20 year old is still cheaper to employ and can be kicked harder than a mid-30 year old.
I've run out of job avenues to pursue as I don't know where to go next.
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flame_bringer...
I think its the only way...
whissper
Of course you were screwed over! Along with anyone else who tries to break into this industry via this or any similar route. These schools exist purely to make money for the shareholders and that's the whole point of my post. It wasn't not a personal dig at you! Its just a huge scam; they are not in the least bit interested in your proposed career. All they want is your money (or the taxpayers via subsidies).
I came into the industry via the UK military and the training was second to none. After 12 years RAF, I then spent 10 years with a couple of equipment OEM's as a field service and trials engineer and finished with 15 years as an Avionics hangar rat with a major UK Defence contractor.
Ageism is alive and well in this biz. I found myself redundant at 62 with a mortgage. If you think 34 is a problem try 62! No-one wants to know! Early retirement was my only option.
To be perfectly honest, in your position I'd probably be talking to the RAAF about a short to medium enlistment term in aircraft engineering.
You could also try Cobham plc at;
* National Air Support (Adelaide, Australia)
* National Jet Systems Pty Ltd (Adelaide, Australia)
* Surveillance Australia (Adelaide, Australia)
But be prepared; HR and the bean counters between them run these companies. Do your homework / research. A bad or even an uncertain attitude will terminate an interview quicker than anything.
Good Luck.
That said I think he still has a potential I know his age could be a stumbling block onto getting an apprenticeship but he can still get in as a technician and work his way up to engineering if he really wants to, Tries hard enough and stop being a pessimist.
I think its the only way...
whissper
Aviation Australia has only one role to fulfil.
That is to get as many students to pass the exams. That is really their only requirement. They do say that government funding is tied to job placements but the statistics can be broken down in a number of ways.
I (and others like me) feel screwed over by a system where despite doing all the right things at school, we never progress any further. Employers are discriminating (and I would say on age despite suggestions otherwise) because a 20 year old is still cheaper to employ and can be kicked harder than a mid-30 year old.
That is to get as many students to pass the exams. That is really their only requirement. They do say that government funding is tied to job placements but the statistics can be broken down in a number of ways.
I (and others like me) feel screwed over by a system where despite doing all the right things at school, we never progress any further. Employers are discriminating (and I would say on age despite suggestions otherwise) because a 20 year old is still cheaper to employ and can be kicked harder than a mid-30 year old.
I came into the industry via the UK military and the training was second to none. After 12 years RAF, I then spent 10 years with a couple of equipment OEM's as a field service and trials engineer and finished with 15 years as an Avionics hangar rat with a major UK Defence contractor.
Ageism is alive and well in this biz. I found myself redundant at 62 with a mortgage. If you think 34 is a problem try 62! No-one wants to know! Early retirement was my only option.
To be perfectly honest, in your position I'd probably be talking to the RAAF about a short to medium enlistment term in aircraft engineering.
You could also try Cobham plc at;
* National Air Support (Adelaide, Australia)
* National Jet Systems Pty Ltd (Adelaide, Australia)
* Surveillance Australia (Adelaide, Australia)
But be prepared; HR and the bean counters between them run these companies. Do your homework / research. A bad or even an uncertain attitude will terminate an interview quicker than anything.
Good Luck.
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Total Bull****
That's the premise of this thread it is FALSE. Aviation always has been at the vanguard of technology. From airframe to power plant vaiation leads the way. Take a career in aviation technology and you will never be out of work. Sure you may have to relocate. But you will NEVER be without a career. Every energy transfer on this planet requires your skills... from metal/plastic work to power plant..... they all use aviation technology. Could be that you are working in Shanghai with a cute Chinese wife but HEY..heads up!
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According to Aerospace, the Journal of the Royal Aeronautical Society, there will be many thousands of new Pilots, and maintenance engineers required in the next few years, there many new aircraft on order from Boeing and Airbus. Someone is going to have to fix them.
Perhaps I was lucky, 15 years in the RAF, and then 29 years with possibly the worlds largest Helicopter company, including a stint in Africa.
I am sure that you have to be prepared to relocate, I believe my old company (Bristow) is training engineers in Aberdeen, but you would have to be prepared to do some time on the North Sea.
Dave
Perhaps I was lucky, 15 years in the RAF, and then 29 years with possibly the worlds largest Helicopter company, including a stint in Africa.
I am sure that you have to be prepared to relocate, I believe my old company (Bristow) is training engineers in Aberdeen, but you would have to be prepared to do some time on the North Sea.
Dave
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I don't know that aviation is the vanguard of technology so much as the occasional user of it.
Certainly certain aerospace aspects have had filter effects to the world: NiCad batteries, for example. GPS is an aerospace-based technology that finds global applications in areas far reaching outside aviation. However, much of what we find in aviation is by no means cutting edge, and often utilizes existing technology.
The mythical personnel shortage in aviation hasn't taken place yet, and won't.
Work is available in aviation; one frequently must travel to get it. Aircraft travel to make money; one has to travel to make money with them. It may mean uprooting and moving one's home and family. It may mean international transfers or commuting, or temporary assignments.
One can't expect to graduate schools and then demand one's salary and location. As an inexperienced neophyte, one is the beggar, not the chooser.
Certainly certain aerospace aspects have had filter effects to the world: NiCad batteries, for example. GPS is an aerospace-based technology that finds global applications in areas far reaching outside aviation. However, much of what we find in aviation is by no means cutting edge, and often utilizes existing technology.
The mythical personnel shortage in aviation hasn't taken place yet, and won't.
Work is available in aviation; one frequently must travel to get it. Aircraft travel to make money; one has to travel to make money with them. It may mean uprooting and moving one's home and family. It may mean international transfers or commuting, or temporary assignments.
One can't expect to graduate schools and then demand one's salary and location. As an inexperienced neophyte, one is the beggar, not the chooser.
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Just checked aviationjobssearch and came up with all this and by the way most of them are avionics technecian vacancies.
""""
You searched for aircraft technician.
Corrected to aircraft technician
Your search returned 43 jobs, showing jobs 1-10
""""
I think you haven't tried hard enough mate.
There are jobs but definitely not for slack people.
""""
You searched for aircraft technician.
Corrected to aircraft technician
Your search returned 43 jobs, showing jobs 1-10
""""
I think you haven't tried hard enough mate.
There are jobs but definitely not for slack people.
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There have been many posts on here complaining that "aircraft engineering ain't what it was", but that said it's always been something you have to want to do, and have to be prepared to do what it takes. Positive Mental Attitudes only need apply because it's a small world and employers very quickly know what sort of people will do the best job and work the best with the teams they have. Somebody may be very bright but if their face doesn't fit or they come over as gobby that's it. Way of the world in many industries, not only aviation.
This will not change and may only get harder. Air traffic growth has been driven by the LCCs, and the cost of fuel is a much higher part of their business model than the legacy carriers as their aircraft spend more time in the air with lower corporate overheads. Thus future rises in oil cost will impact their ticket prices hence demand and the size of their fleets. With them being such a large sector this will reduce the size of the world fleet and accelerate the phase-out of older aircraft as the shrinkng number of buyers seek fuel-efficient and maintenance-free new designs.
In the next 10-20 years this industry will be a shadow of its former self. Those with jobs will be the lucky ones, though they may not be well paid as engineers accept lower rates to stay employed. Those wishing to enter the industry will find it very hard indeed.
I don't wish to appear a prophet of doom but that's how I see it. If anyone has a more optimistic view I'd love to hear it.
This will not change and may only get harder. Air traffic growth has been driven by the LCCs, and the cost of fuel is a much higher part of their business model than the legacy carriers as their aircraft spend more time in the air with lower corporate overheads. Thus future rises in oil cost will impact their ticket prices hence demand and the size of their fleets. With them being such a large sector this will reduce the size of the world fleet and accelerate the phase-out of older aircraft as the shrinkng number of buyers seek fuel-efficient and maintenance-free new designs.
In the next 10-20 years this industry will be a shadow of its former self. Those with jobs will be the lucky ones, though they may not be well paid as engineers accept lower rates to stay employed. Those wishing to enter the industry will find it very hard indeed.
I don't wish to appear a prophet of doom but that's how I see it. If anyone has a more optimistic view I'd love to hear it.
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My opinion is that you’re going about this the wrong way. Instead of doing an apprenticeship go in as a trade’s assistant. I sure no employer wants to put a 30+ year old guy into an apprenticeship as they know they are consigning him into 4 years of indentured slavery . You cannot maintain the lifestyle of an adult on those wages.
CASA requires 21+ years of age, Exam basics, Speak English and 4 years’ experience. NOT a cert IV OR an apprenticeship
There are plenty of jobs out there. Some hangar's look like retirement homes, we always need fresh blood!
CASA requires 21+ years of age, Exam basics, Speak English and 4 years’ experience. NOT a cert IV OR an apprenticeship
There are plenty of jobs out there. Some hangar's look like retirement homes, we always need fresh blood!
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Different Perspective
I completed the Aviation Australia Training course in its 2nd year of operation, Airlines knock on our doors about 3 months before it ended, about half my class were hired to go to sydney to commence apprenticeship (before Hangar 3 opened). I did my time, got back to BNE not long after hangar 3 opened, got my trade cert and walked out the door to become a regular electrician. Since then the GFC hit, 2 of the companies i worked for went under, i never got said sparky ticket (im about 6 months shy) however i now get paid the same as a level 4/5 LAME, with phone, company ute, laptop etc etc and i cruise around the place installing and maintaining security alarm and CCTV systems for woolworths group. And i couldnt be happier.
I miss the planes, the work but the dollars are ****, job prospects are ****, and you only have to look at one of my relatives who is a 20yrs+ serving LAME with Sunstate to realise the big airlines pretty much think you're a glorified mechanic/auto electrician and you're not worth pissing on if on fire.
If you're in brisbane with all the floods about try get a sparky trade or fridgies trade.
I completed the Aviation Australia Training course in its 2nd year of operation, Airlines knock on our doors about 3 months before it ended, about half my class were hired to go to sydney to commence apprenticeship (before Hangar 3 opened). I did my time, got back to BNE not long after hangar 3 opened, got my trade cert and walked out the door to become a regular electrician. Since then the GFC hit, 2 of the companies i worked for went under, i never got said sparky ticket (im about 6 months shy) however i now get paid the same as a level 4/5 LAME, with phone, company ute, laptop etc etc and i cruise around the place installing and maintaining security alarm and CCTV systems for woolworths group. And i couldnt be happier.
I miss the planes, the work but the dollars are ****, job prospects are ****, and you only have to look at one of my relatives who is a 20yrs+ serving LAME with Sunstate to realise the big airlines pretty much think you're a glorified mechanic/auto electrician and you're not worth pissing on if on fire.
If you're in brisbane with all the floods about try get a sparky trade or fridgies trade.
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Old Mate
If you did not have the background of your training you would not be in work now.
Thats the thing about aviation eng training. It is versatile and always up with technology.
I agree with you that most people say in UK or Australia think engineers are lesser people. Then again most UK/Aust engineers let themselves be treated like chit.
Thats why there WERE unions.
If you did not have the background of your training you would not be in work now.
Thats the thing about aviation eng training. It is versatile and always up with technology.
I agree with you that most people say in UK or Australia think engineers are lesser people. Then again most UK/Aust engineers let themselves be treated like chit.
Thats why there WERE unions.
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Hi!
In the US, guys are saying the same thing about pilot jobs.
There are lots of jobs, and the number of openings in all aspects of the aviation industry are just now starting to accelerate at an astounding rate.
This week, and airline in China ordered 50 A-320s, and one in India ordered 180.
It is NOT easy, but there are jobs and a career to be had!!!
cliff
AMS
PS-Just noticed the EK banner ad below this post on this page looking for more pilots. My buddy just got info from EK, and they said for every new A-380 they need 64 pilots.
In the US, guys are saying the same thing about pilot jobs.
There are lots of jobs, and the number of openings in all aspects of the aviation industry are just now starting to accelerate at an astounding rate.
This week, and airline in China ordered 50 A-320s, and one in India ordered 180.
It is NOT easy, but there are jobs and a career to be had!!!
cliff
AMS
PS-Just noticed the EK banner ad below this post on this page looking for more pilots. My buddy just got info from EK, and they said for every new A-380 they need 64 pilots.
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whisper, why dont you do the modules on your own and join a aviation company for free labour just to collect your log books and from there you can catch some contacts and climb up.no need for any special apprenticeships
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No jobs
Whissper, there is no doubt that most of the work is now contract based. Few Companies want more than a skeleton crew of permanent staff. It is hard to be a contractor in Aviation without experience. However there are a few labour hire firms around which may be helpful. At your age you might want to go down the work experience path as well get some experience and get known. A good atttude and skills are still valued.
I have been in Aviation since I was 19 been through 5 different employers over 32 years. I am still employed in a technical role and sometimes wonder if it would be nice to be unemployed for a while. The short story being if you stick at it and you have what it takes you will make it.
J
I have been in Aviation since I was 19 been through 5 different employers over 32 years. I am still employed in a technical role and sometimes wonder if it would be nice to be unemployed for a while. The short story being if you stick at it and you have what it takes you will make it.
J