I WAS WRONG!!!!
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
I WAS WRONG!!!!
While NOTHING can diminish the horror and 'wrongness' of the events in the US I would ask every-one to think about what we will be fighting for!
We will be fighting for the 'rightness' of the last 80 years of western foriegn policy, which is essentially US foriegn policy!
During WW1 the British promised the world to the Arabs if they helped defeat the Germans. At the end of that conflict they, through the League of Nations, reneged and that set the tone for relations between the west and that region. It was called the Balfour Doctrine and set out under the leadership of Loydd George the then Prime Minister of Great Britain. It among other things handed the formerly Turkish Colony of Palestine to the British!
At the end of WW2,which incidentally followed the Great Depression which was the western worlds first taste of the down side of 'Globalisation', the UN(the US's first taste of world power after being Isolationist prior to WW2) decided to hand Palestine to the great displaced Jewry of Europe who had just suffered such terror at the hands of Hitler's Nazis(note I didn't say Germans). Why, against much advice, they thought it would be a good idea to turn a Religion into a Nationality and create Israel will have to be left to people cleverer than I.
It should be remembered that even the Palestinian Jews, who had been living 'more or less' peacefully with the Arabs for centuries, didn't think Israel was such a great idea either.
The Nazi's also killed 3 million Gypsies but no-one thought to give them their own Country!
We now have the US, due to hugely powerful Jewish lobby groups powered by the large Jewish segment of the US population, defending 'its interests' in the region by helping Israel defend itself against the Arab world from the late 40's up until the present day!
Add to the mix the tensions caused by the wests dependance on Oil rich Arab nations as well as the fear of Islams primary doctrine of converting the world to Islam and you have the cocktail that has fueled US, and therefor Western Foriegn Policy over the last 80 years or so.
The US is now whipping itself into a ferver of nationalistic pride in preparation for a war!
Us Politicians and Business leaders such as Steve Forbes are now telling the western world over and over that they were attacked because Islamic Fundamentalists like Bin Laden are JEALOUS of the FREEDOM and WEALTH and OPPORTUNITY that the US represents! WHAT UTTER BOLLOCKS!!!!
If(when) we go to war we will be defending the US, and therefor Western foriegn policy. We will be defending the WEST'S INNABILITY to 'LOSE FACE'. And we thought that was a particularly Eastern Trait!
YES the 'free world' must unite to battle terrorism!
YES what happened in the US is beyond what any reasonable human can accept.
Will killing lots of Arab Muslims or even just Bin Laden fix our problems?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!
WE will just be priming a fuse for our children to cope with!!
I initially reacted the way we all have been reacting and then when I started hearing the 'spin' being put on the reasons for this attack I started thinking about the historical aspects to it!
We hear, over and over, that to ignore the lessons of history is to risk repeating them!
The west is doing just that!!! The baby and the bath water are out the window BIG TIME!!
I was wrong in many things I said and thought in the last week, simply too emotional to react in a logical manner.They were only 'right' from a very narrow western perspective.
I am more fearful now than I was a week ago! The WEST is making a HUGE ERROR!
NOT in fighting terrorism with ALL it's collective resources but in not recognising and articulating the underlying reasons for the attacks that have been going on for 60 years in an ever increasing spiral of violence that reached new depths of inhumanity just over a week ago!
As an aside does anyone remember why the Muslim Arabs have been pi$$ed of with The Jews for so long?
From memory Abraham's wife Sarah(?) couldn't have children so he was bonking his maid Hagar! She gave him Ishmael! then Sarah fell pregnant and gave him a son as well... can't remember his name! So Abraham banished Ishmael and his mum 'to the desert' where he grew up to unite the Arab world against the Jews, Islam was born. So Abraham can be looked upon as not only the father of Judaism but also Islam. And they have been fighting ever since!
Chuck.
Edited when I saw the gramatical and speeling
errors through my newly acquired/required reading glasses.
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
We will be fighting for the 'rightness' of the last 80 years of western foriegn policy, which is essentially US foriegn policy!
During WW1 the British promised the world to the Arabs if they helped defeat the Germans. At the end of that conflict they, through the League of Nations, reneged and that set the tone for relations between the west and that region. It was called the Balfour Doctrine and set out under the leadership of Loydd George the then Prime Minister of Great Britain. It among other things handed the formerly Turkish Colony of Palestine to the British!
At the end of WW2,which incidentally followed the Great Depression which was the western worlds first taste of the down side of 'Globalisation', the UN(the US's first taste of world power after being Isolationist prior to WW2) decided to hand Palestine to the great displaced Jewry of Europe who had just suffered such terror at the hands of Hitler's Nazis(note I didn't say Germans). Why, against much advice, they thought it would be a good idea to turn a Religion into a Nationality and create Israel will have to be left to people cleverer than I.
It should be remembered that even the Palestinian Jews, who had been living 'more or less' peacefully with the Arabs for centuries, didn't think Israel was such a great idea either.
The Nazi's also killed 3 million Gypsies but no-one thought to give them their own Country!
We now have the US, due to hugely powerful Jewish lobby groups powered by the large Jewish segment of the US population, defending 'its interests' in the region by helping Israel defend itself against the Arab world from the late 40's up until the present day!
Add to the mix the tensions caused by the wests dependance on Oil rich Arab nations as well as the fear of Islams primary doctrine of converting the world to Islam and you have the cocktail that has fueled US, and therefor Western Foriegn Policy over the last 80 years or so.
The US is now whipping itself into a ferver of nationalistic pride in preparation for a war!
Us Politicians and Business leaders such as Steve Forbes are now telling the western world over and over that they were attacked because Islamic Fundamentalists like Bin Laden are JEALOUS of the FREEDOM and WEALTH and OPPORTUNITY that the US represents! WHAT UTTER BOLLOCKS!!!!
If(when) we go to war we will be defending the US, and therefor Western foriegn policy. We will be defending the WEST'S INNABILITY to 'LOSE FACE'. And we thought that was a particularly Eastern Trait!
YES the 'free world' must unite to battle terrorism!
YES what happened in the US is beyond what any reasonable human can accept.
Will killing lots of Arab Muslims or even just Bin Laden fix our problems?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!
WE will just be priming a fuse for our children to cope with!!
I initially reacted the way we all have been reacting and then when I started hearing the 'spin' being put on the reasons for this attack I started thinking about the historical aspects to it!
We hear, over and over, that to ignore the lessons of history is to risk repeating them!
The west is doing just that!!! The baby and the bath water are out the window BIG TIME!!
I was wrong in many things I said and thought in the last week, simply too emotional to react in a logical manner.They were only 'right' from a very narrow western perspective.
I am more fearful now than I was a week ago! The WEST is making a HUGE ERROR!
NOT in fighting terrorism with ALL it's collective resources but in not recognising and articulating the underlying reasons for the attacks that have been going on for 60 years in an ever increasing spiral of violence that reached new depths of inhumanity just over a week ago!
As an aside does anyone remember why the Muslim Arabs have been pi$$ed of with The Jews for so long?
From memory Abraham's wife Sarah(?) couldn't have children so he was bonking his maid Hagar! She gave him Ishmael! then Sarah fell pregnant and gave him a son as well... can't remember his name! So Abraham banished Ishmael and his mum 'to the desert' where he grew up to unite the Arab world against the Jews, Islam was born. So Abraham can be looked upon as not only the father of Judaism but also Islam. And they have been fighting ever since!
Chuck.
Edited when I saw the gramatical and speeling
errors through my newly acquired/required reading glasses.[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
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Struth Chuckles!!! You've covered some ground with that one my man.
I'll give it some serious thought and let Creampuff reply.
In the meantime can you advise or send down some of what you're on?
I'll give it some serious thought and let Creampuff reply.
In the meantime can you advise or send down some of what you're on?
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Chuckles
Just about echoes my thoughts on the matter.
But who is listening and how do you stop it.
If history is repeating itself it is because even if our leaders are listening, they, as in the past, are no longer able or are unwilling to control the forces they have unleashed.
The sitution is now soooooooooooooooo complex but maybe, and I can't believe I'm saying this there is now no other answer.
WWI was inevitable as was WW11 a consequence of WW1. Maybe this one will bring us all to our senses. Maybe not.
Just about echoes my thoughts on the matter.
But who is listening and how do you stop it.
If history is repeating itself it is because even if our leaders are listening, they, as in the past, are no longer able or are unwilling to control the forces they have unleashed.
The sitution is now soooooooooooooooo complex but maybe, and I can't believe I'm saying this there is now no other answer.
WWI was inevitable as was WW11 a consequence of WW1. Maybe this one will bring us all to our senses. Maybe not.
I fear Chuck is heading down the right path, now that the immediate gut reaction has passed.
The Arab world has little reason to love the west - for a whole raft of reasons going back to the Crusades. And its hard to find reasons for the west to love the arabs.
Forget the "I'm right, he's wrong" type of argument. Either 'side' can play it. I seem to recall that both the Germans and the Allies during WW1 claimed that God was on 'their' side.
The terrorists are playing on the emotional heartstrings of both east and west to achieve whatever it is they want to achieve. And it is hard to see how they can lose - although theirs will probably be a pyrrhic victory.
Mobilising the west's full military might against a small number of 'true believers' can only give bin Laden greater credibility in the minds of young and impressionable muslims. eg "He must be a very powerful man that the west greatly fears if they will go to such lengths to get him."
If he or any other muslim leader dies fighting overwhelming odds, it will be a case of instant martyrdom and hero worship among the next generation. That next generation will carry on the cause - and the next -and the next. (until no-one remembers what the cause was - it just 'is')
Similarly, can anyone really see the west backing down now? Revenge is demanded. Lessons must be taught!
Yep, whoever was behind WTC, assuming they are fundamentalists attacking the west, has probably won this battle. Economic and Social dislocation on a global scale at a single blow.
These guys and gals are simply criminals, not warriors. It's a great pity that they can't be left to Interpol rather than the 7th Fleet. There's no credibility in being arrested as a thief, murderer or vandal.
Regrettably, human nature and the world scene will not allow this.
It is possible to live together regardless of race or creed. My community of 100,000 people is small but at last count included 37 different ethnic groups. We seem to get on ok.
Side note for the Nostrodamus experts - is it true that he followed the third great war with a thousand years of peace? Perhaps there's hope after all.
The Arab world has little reason to love the west - for a whole raft of reasons going back to the Crusades. And its hard to find reasons for the west to love the arabs.
Forget the "I'm right, he's wrong" type of argument. Either 'side' can play it. I seem to recall that both the Germans and the Allies during WW1 claimed that God was on 'their' side.
The terrorists are playing on the emotional heartstrings of both east and west to achieve whatever it is they want to achieve. And it is hard to see how they can lose - although theirs will probably be a pyrrhic victory.
Mobilising the west's full military might against a small number of 'true believers' can only give bin Laden greater credibility in the minds of young and impressionable muslims. eg "He must be a very powerful man that the west greatly fears if they will go to such lengths to get him."
If he or any other muslim leader dies fighting overwhelming odds, it will be a case of instant martyrdom and hero worship among the next generation. That next generation will carry on the cause - and the next -and the next. (until no-one remembers what the cause was - it just 'is')
Similarly, can anyone really see the west backing down now? Revenge is demanded. Lessons must be taught!
Yep, whoever was behind WTC, assuming they are fundamentalists attacking the west, has probably won this battle. Economic and Social dislocation on a global scale at a single blow.
These guys and gals are simply criminals, not warriors. It's a great pity that they can't be left to Interpol rather than the 7th Fleet. There's no credibility in being arrested as a thief, murderer or vandal.
Regrettably, human nature and the world scene will not allow this.
It is possible to live together regardless of race or creed. My community of 100,000 people is small but at last count included 37 different ethnic groups. We seem to get on ok.
Side note for the Nostrodamus experts - is it true that he followed the third great war with a thousand years of peace? Perhaps there's hope after all.
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add me and me to your list Chimbu. Time seems to rationalise these things. What worries me is the WORST/BEST? case scenario. What if a dozen crazies got together and orchestrated all this and died in the process - where then for retribution. I have the luxury of thought not saddened by a loss though. May sanity prevail.
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
I posted pretty well word for word my initial post on this thread on an R&N thread.
It was titled 'Time to choose sides....NOW' and was started by AA SLF.
After being criticised by he and a few others the thread 'disappeared'.
I can only assume he was not able to counternance any possibility that the west has contributed to the hatred diected at us by the Arab World.
Whether or not they were responsible for WTC etc.
Chuck.
It was titled 'Time to choose sides....NOW' and was started by AA SLF.
After being criticised by he and a few others the thread 'disappeared'.
I can only assume he was not able to counternance any possibility that the west has contributed to the hatred diected at us by the Arab World.
Whether or not they were responsible for WTC etc.
Chuck.
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NOT true Chimbu chuckles -
Go back over to R&N and see the "CIA" thread you started for my reply to you.
Please don't YOU run away into this forum and then accuse me of not being willing to reply to you. I did reply - back in the ORIGINAL LOCATION in Rumours & News.
dAAvid -
Go back over to R&N and see the "CIA" thread you started for my reply to you.
Please don't YOU run away into this forum and then accuse me of not being willing to reply to you. I did reply - back in the ORIGINAL LOCATION in Rumours & News.
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Chuck you missed the point. This is a war against terrorism, not any particular State or government or support for Western foreign policy. The taliban government support terrorists, thus that government is now a target in the overall campaign.
The US would never have succeeded in forming any coalition if its intention was solely aimed at soveriegn M.E. countrys. The relative success of forming such an alliance is because terrorism is the target, not any particular State or religious group.
The reason why the US was attacked was for fanatical religious purposes, pure and simple. The instrument of satan, as these fanatic freaks call the U.S., was dealt a severe blow.
The world has been at war with terrorism for years, only this time its finaly been declared.
The US would never have succeeded in forming any coalition if its intention was solely aimed at soveriegn M.E. countrys. The relative success of forming such an alliance is because terrorism is the target, not any particular State or religious group.
The reason why the US was attacked was for fanatical religious purposes, pure and simple. The instrument of satan, as these fanatic freaks call the U.S., was dealt a severe blow.
The world has been at war with terrorism for years, only this time its finaly been declared.
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
I found AA SLF over on R&N and appologised to him there and will again here.
Slasher I agree but WHY have we been fighting all these years. I don't claim my post is chapter and verse on the history of the situation, but it's a helluva lot closer to the reasons than 'They are just jealous of us!"
Do we want to fix this problem with minimal loss of life or gaurantee that the next generations of whomever is attacked hate us more than the current one who perpetrated this obscenity?
Chuck.
Slasher I agree but WHY have we been fighting all these years. I don't claim my post is chapter and verse on the history of the situation, but it's a helluva lot closer to the reasons than 'They are just jealous of us!"
Do we want to fix this problem with minimal loss of life or gaurantee that the next generations of whomever is attacked hate us more than the current one who perpetrated this obscenity?
Chuck.
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Chimbu Chuckles speaks with great sense (21 Sep 0309 hrs); most timely, wise and pertinent counsel for all who wish to rid the World of terrorism, as do I.
Fact is much of the 20th Century US, British, Western European and more recently UN policies, as implemented, have alienated the rest, and generated much resentment; indeed amongst many, a hatred of that hegemony and the self serving interests of the West and Globalization - to the great inequitous disadvantage of several billion in the rest of the World.
So the strategy to defeat terrorism must first acknowledge this unpopularity, and the fact that the Free World Forces have recently killed, maimed or gravely affected the lives of thousands of these less fortunate human beings through the unilateral retaliatory air strikes of the past few years.
Those air strikes could be called 'Acts of War against other sovereign states on suspicion, in revenge for terrorist actions, but without factual evidence or due legal process in accordance with international law'. In other words crimes against humanity!
The economic sanctions have bred a similar hatred amongst many millions; mostly it seems against America, because the others - including the UN - have been judged as mere lackeys of the USA.
So, while I too grieve the loss of so many innocent people on 11 Sep, to unleash the might of conventional warfare upon Afghanistan or neighbouring countries is only certain to further alienate those populations, and all across the rest of the World who believe those military actions are unlawful retaliations against a population of similar ethnicity and or religion to their own.
Now we are told that one third of the World's present population is of the Islamic faith - Moslems - of whom many are extremists, ready to become martyrs like those aboard the four airliners on 11 Sep. So the President of the USA might wish to demonstrate the vengeful might of his powerful nation to appease the anger and loss of face of his people, to get evens, but after flattening Afghanistan with the usual huge overkill what next? All it will do is motivate more martyrs!
Although the analogy comes from the Christian Bible, David and Goliath will be revisited - over time, whenever the opportunity presents, the 'little terrorist' will orchestrate some other dastardly event, like on 11 Sep, against 'big Goliath'! Just as did the 'European Resistance Fighters' of World War Two.
In other words a conventional warfare response is not the answer, despite what all those glory seeking generals and admirals might say (and the munitions and military equipment manufacturers who once again would profit greatly from such a campaign).
If, after producing facts and irrefutable evidence that demonstrates a prima facie case against the accused, extradition to stand trial is not agreed by the country in which that or those persons are residing, then with the mandate of the UN use appropriate means to arrest that person or persons. That appropriate method would be an undercover or Special Forces operation, not a leveling of supposed military targets or the destruction of the country's infrastructure and economic means for survival. That would only result in, once again, punishing the innocents.
Using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut will bring ridicule upon the USA and her allies, as well as be shown to once again be a failure. Achieving the 'aim' of the campaign will not be assured, just like the outcome of the Vietnam War.
Counter terrorism is a different form of warfare, requiring different capabilities. Identifying those requirements, equipping and training should be today's priority.
Infiltrating populations and gaining the essential intelligence upon which to quash planned terrorist actions and to prosecute is the immediate requirement. Cultivating citizen awareness to be watchful and promptly report suspicious activity is also essential to gather intelligence and elevate effective self-defence against terrorist actions.
On a slower tack, above all, the leaders of the democratic and powerful nations should urgently redress the wrongful foreign policies and economic imbalance that has generated this hateful division. That must include curbing the 'eye for an eye' actions of the Israeli’s and demonstrating even-handedness to the Palestinians.
Finally we need to remember that the 'spin doctors', politicians, generals and intelligence officers are often convenient with the truth and renown for dissembling the facts to suit their own immediate ends: that includes serving up what they believe the President wants to hear, or what is deemed to be appropriate for the domestic politics of the moment. Thus be alert to propaganda! Remember the past examples and the pathetic outcomes in consequence!
Fact is much of the 20th Century US, British, Western European and more recently UN policies, as implemented, have alienated the rest, and generated much resentment; indeed amongst many, a hatred of that hegemony and the self serving interests of the West and Globalization - to the great inequitous disadvantage of several billion in the rest of the World.
So the strategy to defeat terrorism must first acknowledge this unpopularity, and the fact that the Free World Forces have recently killed, maimed or gravely affected the lives of thousands of these less fortunate human beings through the unilateral retaliatory air strikes of the past few years.
Those air strikes could be called 'Acts of War against other sovereign states on suspicion, in revenge for terrorist actions, but without factual evidence or due legal process in accordance with international law'. In other words crimes against humanity!
The economic sanctions have bred a similar hatred amongst many millions; mostly it seems against America, because the others - including the UN - have been judged as mere lackeys of the USA.
So, while I too grieve the loss of so many innocent people on 11 Sep, to unleash the might of conventional warfare upon Afghanistan or neighbouring countries is only certain to further alienate those populations, and all across the rest of the World who believe those military actions are unlawful retaliations against a population of similar ethnicity and or religion to their own.
Now we are told that one third of the World's present population is of the Islamic faith - Moslems - of whom many are extremists, ready to become martyrs like those aboard the four airliners on 11 Sep. So the President of the USA might wish to demonstrate the vengeful might of his powerful nation to appease the anger and loss of face of his people, to get evens, but after flattening Afghanistan with the usual huge overkill what next? All it will do is motivate more martyrs!
Although the analogy comes from the Christian Bible, David and Goliath will be revisited - over time, whenever the opportunity presents, the 'little terrorist' will orchestrate some other dastardly event, like on 11 Sep, against 'big Goliath'! Just as did the 'European Resistance Fighters' of World War Two.
In other words a conventional warfare response is not the answer, despite what all those glory seeking generals and admirals might say (and the munitions and military equipment manufacturers who once again would profit greatly from such a campaign).
If, after producing facts and irrefutable evidence that demonstrates a prima facie case against the accused, extradition to stand trial is not agreed by the country in which that or those persons are residing, then with the mandate of the UN use appropriate means to arrest that person or persons. That appropriate method would be an undercover or Special Forces operation, not a leveling of supposed military targets or the destruction of the country's infrastructure and economic means for survival. That would only result in, once again, punishing the innocents.
Using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut will bring ridicule upon the USA and her allies, as well as be shown to once again be a failure. Achieving the 'aim' of the campaign will not be assured, just like the outcome of the Vietnam War.
Counter terrorism is a different form of warfare, requiring different capabilities. Identifying those requirements, equipping and training should be today's priority.
Infiltrating populations and gaining the essential intelligence upon which to quash planned terrorist actions and to prosecute is the immediate requirement. Cultivating citizen awareness to be watchful and promptly report suspicious activity is also essential to gather intelligence and elevate effective self-defence against terrorist actions.
On a slower tack, above all, the leaders of the democratic and powerful nations should urgently redress the wrongful foreign policies and economic imbalance that has generated this hateful division. That must include curbing the 'eye for an eye' actions of the Israeli’s and demonstrating even-handedness to the Palestinians.
Finally we need to remember that the 'spin doctors', politicians, generals and intelligence officers are often convenient with the truth and renown for dissembling the facts to suit their own immediate ends: that includes serving up what they believe the President wants to hear, or what is deemed to be appropriate for the domestic politics of the moment. Thus be alert to propaganda! Remember the past examples and the pathetic outcomes in consequence!
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Slasher,
If this is indeed 'war against terrorism' (as opposed to 'war against all terrorists who threaten the US', let us all check for Dubbya to pull the plug on US-sponsored terrorism in the UK and Ireland through NORAID.
It would be both very refreshing and reassuring to know that we are being asked to fight a principle, not a specific issue.
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Hooking Fell ]
If this is indeed 'war against terrorism' (as opposed to 'war against all terrorists who threaten the US', let us all check for Dubbya to pull the plug on US-sponsored terrorism in the UK and Ireland through NORAID.
It would be both very refreshing and reassuring to know that we are being asked to fight a principle, not a specific issue.
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Hooking Fell ]
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CoodaShooda, I believe it was true that Nostrodamus did follow with a thousands years peace, but with his vagueness (is that a word?) it can be hard to understnd what a thousands year peace may mean. It could be peace because there are so few humasn left, it could be peace because the third great war was so devastating no one wants to start another or it could be that once the third war was fought we just grew sick of wars and peace evolved. Or something like that.
I know which one im hoping for.
I know which one im hoping for.
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Yes, it's a very complex issue indeed. Once a war has started with these individuals, when will it end, will they keep recruiting young people into their fundamentalist religions. This type of war could last years, even decades.
I don't know the solution, or even begin to guess, however I will say that whatever happens over the next few weeks could shape what is to come for the years ahead.
I don't know the solution, or even begin to guess, however I will say that whatever happens over the next few weeks could shape what is to come for the years ahead.
No amount of retoric, no fact of history, no religion and no politics can ever justify the atrocities man has perpetrated upon his fellow man throughout history.
Those atrocities are many and include the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, Vietnam, Biafra and Africa and now terrorism against the people of the USA.
No amount of reprisals can ever bring one soul back or ever relieve the pain and suffering.
Those atrocities are many and include the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, Vietnam, Biafra and Africa and now terrorism against the people of the USA.
No amount of reprisals can ever bring one soul back or ever relieve the pain and suffering.
Bottums Up
Chuckles
I'm stunned at your changed opinion, pleasantly so I might add (sounds conceited but is not meant to). What caused it? A single factor or otherwise?
Slasher
Agreed that terrorism has to be fought. But, IMHO, Bush is just using the attack as an excuse to flex his (US) muscle. He cares not that many innocent people will be killed and maimed, on both sides, nor that his talk of war is plunging the world economies towards recession/depression.
IMHO, if Clinton were still President, he would still talk tough, but there would not have been the war mongering talk. And I believe he would have gained in world stature by hunting down and bringing to trial the perpertraitors of last weeks events.
It is also my belief that when the 'war against terrorists' is finished, the costs, and not just in dollars but lives and human well being, will be deemed to have been excessive. I don't see George Dubya leaving the Presidency with the stature of his father.
For those who haven't stumbled upon this contrary opinion, John Pilger's article (opinion) puts an interesting perspective on current issues.
Click here.
(edit for url)
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Capt Claret ]
I'm stunned at your changed opinion, pleasantly so I might add (sounds conceited but is not meant to). What caused it? A single factor or otherwise?
Slasher
Agreed that terrorism has to be fought. But, IMHO, Bush is just using the attack as an excuse to flex his (US) muscle. He cares not that many innocent people will be killed and maimed, on both sides, nor that his talk of war is plunging the world economies towards recession/depression.
IMHO, if Clinton were still President, he would still talk tough, but there would not have been the war mongering talk. And I believe he would have gained in world stature by hunting down and bringing to trial the perpertraitors of last weeks events.
It is also my belief that when the 'war against terrorists' is finished, the costs, and not just in dollars but lives and human well being, will be deemed to have been excessive. I don't see George Dubya leaving the Presidency with the stature of his father.
For those who haven't stumbled upon this contrary opinion, John Pilger's article (opinion) puts an interesting perspective on current issues.
Click here.
(edit for url)
[ 21 September 2001: Message edited by: Capt Claret ]
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To give this whole terrorist issue a medical analogy, are we not just treating the symptoms without first diagnosing the true ailment ? The underlying issues have been wisely spoken about by many previous posters to this thread who have raised valid points about what motivates a terrorist.
It seems that there will never be any peace in the ME while the US continually backs Israel. The Hebrew & Arab nations have demonstrated their abilities to co-exist peacefully down the centuries & if it were not for outside interference from the likes of the carve up after the treaty of Versailles & other injustices they would still be doing so today. What is needed is an even handed approach & a determination to solve this Israeli/Palestinian crisis peacefully once & for all. Until this happens we are all condemned to the reality of action versus reaction. George W says that they are going to use the carrot & the stick to achieve their aims.
Maybe if they had used a little more carrot in the past we wouldn't be using the stick today ? In the interim, the US must seek it's vengeance & who can blame them for that, I just hope that they will devote as much time to discovering the causes of such hostility in the first place & then take such steps as to remove them by the use of the aforesaid "carrots." Let's hope someone out there is listening & is like minded.
It seems that there will never be any peace in the ME while the US continually backs Israel. The Hebrew & Arab nations have demonstrated their abilities to co-exist peacefully down the centuries & if it were not for outside interference from the likes of the carve up after the treaty of Versailles & other injustices they would still be doing so today. What is needed is an even handed approach & a determination to solve this Israeli/Palestinian crisis peacefully once & for all. Until this happens we are all condemned to the reality of action versus reaction. George W says that they are going to use the carrot & the stick to achieve their aims.
Maybe if they had used a little more carrot in the past we wouldn't be using the stick today ? In the interim, the US must seek it's vengeance & who can blame them for that, I just hope that they will devote as much time to discovering the causes of such hostility in the first place & then take such steps as to remove them by the use of the aforesaid "carrots." Let's hope someone out there is listening & is like minded.
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Chimbu & Claret, to quote the President of the United States:-
"You are with us or you are with the terrorists". Really says it all.
No amount of boring,self righteous pity,moral high ground garbage will ever justify this attack on innocent civilians going about their daily work.
Let's get on with the job of wiping out these gutless,low breed scumbags off the face off the face of the earth so we can all get back to living our humble lives in peace without the fear of a bomb going off in our local supermarket or aircraft taking out a national monument or two !
Keep the faith :]
"You are with us or you are with the terrorists". Really says it all.
No amount of boring,self righteous pity,moral high ground garbage will ever justify this attack on innocent civilians going about their daily work.
Let's get on with the job of wiping out these gutless,low breed scumbags off the face off the face of the earth so we can all get back to living our humble lives in peace without the fear of a bomb going off in our local supermarket or aircraft taking out a national monument or two !
Keep the faith :]
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Well chimbu your 2nd paragraph questions the rightness of US foreign policy and for mine they've done ok throughout the 20th century by baling us out in both wars, particularly WWII, opposing the spread of communism since shown to be an unworkable philosophy and removing Saddam from Kuwait.
The Sheer economic and military power of the country has made it the No1 tool of the West to carry out and enforce UN policy so they were always going to play a role in whatever the UN decided in the Middle East post WWII. Thousands of years of conflict throughout that region ensured the west would be stepping on somebodies toes and the yanks have taken alot of the flak.
Heard an arabic proffessor pointing out that if the US pulled out of the region,Saddam would be back into Kuwait with control of its oil and within 2years have nuclear capability so I still reckon they're looking after everyones interest here.
While I agree with the spirit of your ideas I still haven't heard or read any alternative
to the limited military action the UN is proposing. Slasher has it right in that regard as nobody is considering strategic bombing of cities etc, rather a prolonged campaign to destroy terrorist training camps and infrastructure in those countries with a known history of encouraging,promoting,financing them.
Now I'll duck behind the nearest parrapet!
The Sheer economic and military power of the country has made it the No1 tool of the West to carry out and enforce UN policy so they were always going to play a role in whatever the UN decided in the Middle East post WWII. Thousands of years of conflict throughout that region ensured the west would be stepping on somebodies toes and the yanks have taken alot of the flak.
Heard an arabic proffessor pointing out that if the US pulled out of the region,Saddam would be back into Kuwait with control of its oil and within 2years have nuclear capability so I still reckon they're looking after everyones interest here.
While I agree with the spirit of your ideas I still haven't heard or read any alternative
to the limited military action the UN is proposing. Slasher has it right in that regard as nobody is considering strategic bombing of cities etc, rather a prolonged campaign to destroy terrorist training camps and infrastructure in those countries with a known history of encouraging,promoting,financing them.
Now I'll duck behind the nearest parrapet!
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I don't believe there can be ANY justification for the willfull murder of 6,000+ people any more than I believe there was any justification for killing 6,000,000+ people in the holocaust. I don't believe there can be any justification for destroying the livlihood of everyone who's job depends, in one way or another, on civil airlines.
I will never be convinced that there is any justification for the death of innocent civilians, anywhere in the world. People whose only "crime" was to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time, while pursuing their own legitimate goals in life.
Sorry Chimbu but you and I may have to agree to differ here. I don't dispute your historical research. I simply cannot accept that it can ever be allowed to become an excuse for such an attrocity.
I believe the world must fight back against terrorism. This fight is already long overdue ... there are all too many examples of its results. If we turn the blind eye to it now, we condemn ourselves and all our future generations to the same, if not worse.
I will never be convinced that there is any justification for the death of innocent civilians, anywhere in the world. People whose only "crime" was to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time, while pursuing their own legitimate goals in life.
Sorry Chimbu but you and I may have to agree to differ here. I don't dispute your historical research. I simply cannot accept that it can ever be allowed to become an excuse for such an attrocity.
I believe the world must fight back against terrorism. This fight is already long overdue ... there are all too many examples of its results. If we turn the blind eye to it now, we condemn ourselves and all our future generations to the same, if not worse.