I WAS WRONG!!!!
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
Whiskery,
That I'll help the situation no end.
Ozexpat/Arag where in anything I've posted have I at anytime sought to justify this attrocity? All I'm saying is we should tred carefully and look back at history to see that there is something behind all this that can be fixed without WW3. What follows was emailed to me this evening and while long is worth the reading!
> A SUPERPOWER NO MORE
>
> By
>
> Daniel C. Maguire
> Professor, Marquette University
>
> When I boarded the Midwest Express plane to Washington D.C. on
>September 11, 2001 at 8:00 am (Central Time), I had no idea that the
>definition of
>power on planet earth would be re- written within the hour. I read the
>paper, enjoyed a nice breakfast, and felt quite secure. Why not! I was
>
>a citizen of the "world's last remaining superpower." This "superpower"
>
>was pouring into its "Defense" budget some thirty million dollars an
>hour, nine thousand dollars a second to keep me safe. As we neared
>Washington, the pilot announced that the Washington airport was closed
>and we would be heading back to Milwaukee. Within minutes he reported
>that the Airport in Milwaukee was also closed and we were to land at the
>
>closest airport, Columbus, Ohio.
>
> Cell phones and television at the Columbus airport told us the
>news,
>that our superpower status was a myth. In a superpower, the president
>would not have to hide out in Louisiana and Nebraska because of
>"credible evidence" that he could not return to the Capital; the
>congress would
>not be running from the Capitol Building; schools and businesses
>throughout
>a superpower could not be forced shut; I would not suddenly be looking
>up
>into a sky where no airplane could dare fly. These were the facts of
>this new world order. The Defense Department could not defend us--or
>its main temple, the Pentagon-- from a hatred and a mode of power that
>we
>had never before known.
>
> It was not Pearl Harbor revisited. The bombers had left no
>return
>address. The instinct to retaliate with bombing is an anachronism.
>Fewer than twenty men had brought us to our national knees and raised
>the biggest question facing us in the twenty-first century, posed by a
>little girl and reported in the press: "why are they killing themselves
>and
>killing all those people?"
>
> THE GUILT GAP
>
> The governments answer was that we are good and love freedom and
>these
>people are bad and hate it. That vapid answer came from an arrogant
>national culture that has lost its talent for healthy guilt. The hatred
>
>that could so easily paralyze our nation has a history, and as Teilhard
>de Chardin said, "nothing is intelligible outside of its history."
>
> Why do the deprived of the world hate us so?
>
> To give an honest answer to the little girl's question, to
>start some
>meaningful reflection and move out of the morass of American jingoism, I
>
>look to some thoughtful witnesses and diagnosticians of humankind. The
>first is J. Glenn Gray, an intelligence officer with the army in World
>War Two. In his book The Warriors, Gray wrote: "If guilt is not
>experienced deeply enough to cut into us, our future may well be lost."
>
> Next, Robert Heilbroner, the political economist, who peeked
>behind the
>veils of our self- image and concluded: "There is a barbarism hidden
>beneath the superficial amenities of life." Close to Heilbroner is
>Abraham Heschel, the Jewish theologian. He cited "the secret obscenity,
>
>the unnoticed malignancy of established patterns of indifference."
>
> Gerd Theissen the biblical scholar joins the chorus. He noted
>the
>century long quest for "the missing link' between apes and "true
>humanity." Call off the search, he said. The missing link is us. True
>
>humanity could not do what we have done to one another and to this
>generous host of an earth.
>
> Frances Moor Lappe is our next witness: "Historically people
>have tried
>to deny their own culpability for mass human suffering by assigning
>responsibility to external forces beyond their control."
>
> And next I dare turn to words I wrote in 1993: "The absence of
>pity is
>the root of all evil." I continued: "Can we sit now in our First World
>
>comfort at a table with a view of the golf course, and ignore starvation
>
>in the Third World and joblessness and homelessness in our cities? The
>prophets of Israel would answer 'no.' In Jeremiah's words, there is no
>hiding from the effects of guilt and morally malignant neglect: 'Do you
>think that you can be exempt? No, you cannot be exempt.' (Jer. 25)
>Injustice will come home to roost, whether in wars of redistibution
>(the most likely military threat of the future), or in crime and
>terrorism,
>or in far-reaching economic shock waves. The planet will not forever
>endure our insults. If the prophets' law is correct--and the facts of
>history
>endorse it--we will not be exempt."
>
> And finally, Count Cavour of Italy said that if we did for
>ourselves
>what we allow our country to do in our name, we would be jailed and hung
>
>as scoundrels.
>
> These were not the voices heard in The National Cathedral on
>September
>14. Jeremiah was not invited to say to the leaders of "the most
>powerful nation in the world:" "Acknowedge your guilt!" (Jer. 3:12)
>
> OUR GUILT AND THIS STUNNING HATRED
>
> Affluence and comfort dull the optic nerve. The poor world sees
>us
>differently. Draw a circle and cut me out of it and I will see sharply
>what goes on there. The attackers pinpointed the reasons for their
>outrage. They struck at what they saw as the twin towers of our
>indifference and at our haughty military heart. They see our nation as
>an arrogant, spoiled five hundred pound gorilla that pollutes and then
>scorns treaties to end pollution, that was built on slavery and
>practices racism and yet shuns the United Nations conference on racism
>in Durban,
>South Africa. They noticed that the genocide of black people in Rwanda
>did not stir us to action. They believe we would have acted differently
>
>if Swedes or Irish were having their throats cut. Those outside the
>affluent circle are stunned at our ability to lock into caricatures of
>others. We don't say that Timothy McVeigh represents Irish Catholics
>but the Taliban and Bin Laden somehow symbolize Islam. When they see us
>
>getting ready to repeat the Soviet madness in Afghanistan, a writer from
>
>that land agrees that Bin Laden is properly compared to Adolph Hitler
>and the Taliban are well compared to Nazis, but the people of
>Afghanistan,
>with a huge proportion of widowed women are best compared to the Jews in
>
>concentration camps. They would love to be free of that tyranny. Those
>
>outside our world hate us for ignoring this and threatening slaughter,
>to be masked as "collateral damage."
>
> Very relevant to September 11, many Muslims see us as incapable
>of an
>even-handed policy in the Middle East, a policy that would defend with
>equal vigor and equal financial aid, the existence of a safe and secure
>
>Israeli state and an equally safe and secure Palestinian state, each
>with territorial integrity. There is no other solution, but those who
>hate
>us see that our leaders do not know that.
>
> The Muslim world has a nation-transcending unity that we little
>understand. The UMMAH, the community of believing Muslims melts borders
>
>between races and nations. That is why so many African Americans were
>drawn to Islam. All Muslims feel the pain of the reported half million
>innocent children dead in Iraq due to our sanctions. I see it as the
>surest principle in all of ethics that what is good for kids is good and
>
>what is bad for kids is ungodly." They grieve over those
>children--sacrificed to what end?-- as we grieve over our dead in New
>York and Washington. They marvel at our ability to kill as many as a
>quarter million young Iraqi soldiers in the Gulf War--young people like
>the students I teach at Marquette University--while leaving our
>announced target in control. (Surely "the mob" would have been more
>kind and
>effective. If Saddam were the problem, they would have "whacked" him
>rather than slaughtering his children.)
>
> Our hubris shines through our imperfectly disguised attitudes
>toward
>Islam, attitudes that befoul our policies in the Middle East. It is
>asked: "How can we deal with these people?" As professor Huston Smith
>wrote: "During Europe's Dark Ages, Muslim philosophers and scientists
>kept the lamp of learning bright, ready to spark the Western mind when
>it roused from its long sleep." Muslims like Avicenna taught medicine
>to
>the backward Europeans. Arab states like Jordan and Egypt have shown
>the possibility of peaceful progress in the Middle East. These are not
>savages who can be calmed only by occupation. The solution is much
>simpler and it is found in the prophets of Israel. As Isaiah saw it, it
>
>is only if you plant justice that you will have peace. (Isa. 32) And
>occupation of another people is not justice.
>
> The problem goes beyond Islam. The poor of the world see an
>absence of
>pity in our economic policies. 1.3 billion are in absolute poverty, 70%
>
>of those being women. And poverty kills. 40 million people die yearly
>from hunger and hunger-related causes. This is like 320 jumbo jets
>planes crashing every day with half the passengers being children, as
>Clive
>Ponting points out in his monumental book A Green History of the World.
>The poor of the world are not dumb. They notice, as the United Nations
>points out, that 82.7 percent of the world's income goes to the top 20
>percent, leaving 17.3 percent for the rest of humanity. The poor notice
>
>that this does not engage U.S. politics or economics. We are the
>biggest actor on the world scene at the moment and they note a cold
>absence of
>pity, and they hate us for all of this.
>
> SOLUTIONS
>
> George Kennan once compared large nations to dinosaurs with
>brains the
>size of a pea. When struck they thrash out, destroying much and helping
>
>little. The Bush administration seems intent in living out this image.
>Bombing the victims of the Taliban will do not more good than bombing
>the children of Iraq who had been forced into the army. Building a new
>Maginot line of missile defense is tragically comedic. Tightening up
>security at the airlines as we should have done years ago is as late as
>it is inadequate. (Biological, chemical, and small atomic weapons are
>probably already in preparation.) All these are efforts to plug the
>spigot. What is needed is to turn off the faucet. The faucet is
>perceived injustice in the Middle East, the need for separate states for
>
>Israel and for the Palestinians. The faucet is the disastrous
>maldistribution of wealth in the world and the proliferation of
>starvation.
>
> Solving this maldistribution is not beyond our fiscal reach
>though it
>seems to be beyond our moral grasp. James Tobin, the Nobel
>prize-winning economist, suggested a 0.5 percent tax on all spot
>transactions in
>foreign exchange, including futures contracts and options. As economist
>
>David Kortin says: "The 0.5 percent Tobin tax on foreign exchange
>transactions would help dampen speculative international financial
>movements but would be too small to deter commodity trade or serious
>international investment commitments." The money could be used to
>retire those debts of poor countries that cannot be easily forgiven and
>it
>could finance the efforts of the United Nations and other agencies and
>non-governmental organizations to bring education, soil conservation,
>water-purification, micro-loans for cottage industries, family
>planning, and improved communications throughout the world.
>
> The Religions of the world need to rise to the occasion as they
>have
>not done so far. Religion is a powerful motivator. John Henry Cardinal
>
>Newman said that people will die for a dogma who will not stir for a
>conclusion. Nothing so stirs the will as the tincture of the sacred.
>Religions so far in this exploding crisis have mainly fulfilled their
>Prozak function of soothing the pain. This is good and all religions
>are into the purveying of comfort and hope. But the challenge of
>prophetic
>religion in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and increasingly in "engaged"
>Buddhism and Hinduism is to "speak truth to power." to "conscientize"
>power, and to discomfort power. This they have not done.
>
> We can pretend that we are purely innocent and that the hatred
>of us is
>"unfathomable." But the fact remains that the solution to the problems
>of poor,
>enslaved, or occupied people is not nuclear physics. All that is needed
>is the
>moral and political will. The poetic author of Deuteronomy put this
>exasperated plea into the mouth of God. "I have set before you life and
>
>I have set before you death, and I have begged you to choose life for
>the sake of your children." We can't seem to do it. The hope now is
>that
>with our military power embarrassed and our vulnerability terrifyingly
>clear, fear might be the penumbra of wisdom.
>
>
>Daniel C. Maguire
>2823 N. Summit Avenue
>Milwaukee WI 53211
That I'll help the situation no end.
Ozexpat/Arag where in anything I've posted have I at anytime sought to justify this attrocity? All I'm saying is we should tred carefully and look back at history to see that there is something behind all this that can be fixed without WW3. What follows was emailed to me this evening and while long is worth the reading!
> A SUPERPOWER NO MORE
>
> By
>
> Daniel C. Maguire
> Professor, Marquette University
>
> When I boarded the Midwest Express plane to Washington D.C. on
>September 11, 2001 at 8:00 am (Central Time), I had no idea that the
>definition of
>power on planet earth would be re- written within the hour. I read the
>paper, enjoyed a nice breakfast, and felt quite secure. Why not! I was
>
>a citizen of the "world's last remaining superpower." This "superpower"
>
>was pouring into its "Defense" budget some thirty million dollars an
>hour, nine thousand dollars a second to keep me safe. As we neared
>Washington, the pilot announced that the Washington airport was closed
>and we would be heading back to Milwaukee. Within minutes he reported
>that the Airport in Milwaukee was also closed and we were to land at the
>
>closest airport, Columbus, Ohio.
>
> Cell phones and television at the Columbus airport told us the
>news,
>that our superpower status was a myth. In a superpower, the president
>would not have to hide out in Louisiana and Nebraska because of
>"credible evidence" that he could not return to the Capital; the
>congress would
>not be running from the Capitol Building; schools and businesses
>throughout
>a superpower could not be forced shut; I would not suddenly be looking
>up
>into a sky where no airplane could dare fly. These were the facts of
>this new world order. The Defense Department could not defend us--or
>its main temple, the Pentagon-- from a hatred and a mode of power that
>we
>had never before known.
>
> It was not Pearl Harbor revisited. The bombers had left no
>return
>address. The instinct to retaliate with bombing is an anachronism.
>Fewer than twenty men had brought us to our national knees and raised
>the biggest question facing us in the twenty-first century, posed by a
>little girl and reported in the press: "why are they killing themselves
>and
>killing all those people?"
>
> THE GUILT GAP
>
> The governments answer was that we are good and love freedom and
>these
>people are bad and hate it. That vapid answer came from an arrogant
>national culture that has lost its talent for healthy guilt. The hatred
>
>that could so easily paralyze our nation has a history, and as Teilhard
>de Chardin said, "nothing is intelligible outside of its history."
>
> Why do the deprived of the world hate us so?
>
> To give an honest answer to the little girl's question, to
>start some
>meaningful reflection and move out of the morass of American jingoism, I
>
>look to some thoughtful witnesses and diagnosticians of humankind. The
>first is J. Glenn Gray, an intelligence officer with the army in World
>War Two. In his book The Warriors, Gray wrote: "If guilt is not
>experienced deeply enough to cut into us, our future may well be lost."
>
> Next, Robert Heilbroner, the political economist, who peeked
>behind the
>veils of our self- image and concluded: "There is a barbarism hidden
>beneath the superficial amenities of life." Close to Heilbroner is
>Abraham Heschel, the Jewish theologian. He cited "the secret obscenity,
>
>the unnoticed malignancy of established patterns of indifference."
>
> Gerd Theissen the biblical scholar joins the chorus. He noted
>the
>century long quest for "the missing link' between apes and "true
>humanity." Call off the search, he said. The missing link is us. True
>
>humanity could not do what we have done to one another and to this
>generous host of an earth.
>
> Frances Moor Lappe is our next witness: "Historically people
>have tried
>to deny their own culpability for mass human suffering by assigning
>responsibility to external forces beyond their control."
>
> And next I dare turn to words I wrote in 1993: "The absence of
>pity is
>the root of all evil." I continued: "Can we sit now in our First World
>
>comfort at a table with a view of the golf course, and ignore starvation
>
>in the Third World and joblessness and homelessness in our cities? The
>prophets of Israel would answer 'no.' In Jeremiah's words, there is no
>hiding from the effects of guilt and morally malignant neglect: 'Do you
>think that you can be exempt? No, you cannot be exempt.' (Jer. 25)
>Injustice will come home to roost, whether in wars of redistibution
>(the most likely military threat of the future), or in crime and
>terrorism,
>or in far-reaching economic shock waves. The planet will not forever
>endure our insults. If the prophets' law is correct--and the facts of
>history
>endorse it--we will not be exempt."
>
> And finally, Count Cavour of Italy said that if we did for
>ourselves
>what we allow our country to do in our name, we would be jailed and hung
>
>as scoundrels.
>
> These were not the voices heard in The National Cathedral on
>September
>14. Jeremiah was not invited to say to the leaders of "the most
>powerful nation in the world:" "Acknowedge your guilt!" (Jer. 3:12)
>
> OUR GUILT AND THIS STUNNING HATRED
>
> Affluence and comfort dull the optic nerve. The poor world sees
>us
>differently. Draw a circle and cut me out of it and I will see sharply
>what goes on there. The attackers pinpointed the reasons for their
>outrage. They struck at what they saw as the twin towers of our
>indifference and at our haughty military heart. They see our nation as
>an arrogant, spoiled five hundred pound gorilla that pollutes and then
>scorns treaties to end pollution, that was built on slavery and
>practices racism and yet shuns the United Nations conference on racism
>in Durban,
>South Africa. They noticed that the genocide of black people in Rwanda
>did not stir us to action. They believe we would have acted differently
>
>if Swedes or Irish were having their throats cut. Those outside the
>affluent circle are stunned at our ability to lock into caricatures of
>others. We don't say that Timothy McVeigh represents Irish Catholics
>but the Taliban and Bin Laden somehow symbolize Islam. When they see us
>
>getting ready to repeat the Soviet madness in Afghanistan, a writer from
>
>that land agrees that Bin Laden is properly compared to Adolph Hitler
>and the Taliban are well compared to Nazis, but the people of
>Afghanistan,
>with a huge proportion of widowed women are best compared to the Jews in
>
>concentration camps. They would love to be free of that tyranny. Those
>
>outside our world hate us for ignoring this and threatening slaughter,
>to be masked as "collateral damage."
>
> Very relevant to September 11, many Muslims see us as incapable
>of an
>even-handed policy in the Middle East, a policy that would defend with
>equal vigor and equal financial aid, the existence of a safe and secure
>
>Israeli state and an equally safe and secure Palestinian state, each
>with territorial integrity. There is no other solution, but those who
>hate
>us see that our leaders do not know that.
>
> The Muslim world has a nation-transcending unity that we little
>understand. The UMMAH, the community of believing Muslims melts borders
>
>between races and nations. That is why so many African Americans were
>drawn to Islam. All Muslims feel the pain of the reported half million
>innocent children dead in Iraq due to our sanctions. I see it as the
>surest principle in all of ethics that what is good for kids is good and
>
>what is bad for kids is ungodly." They grieve over those
>children--sacrificed to what end?-- as we grieve over our dead in New
>York and Washington. They marvel at our ability to kill as many as a
>quarter million young Iraqi soldiers in the Gulf War--young people like
>the students I teach at Marquette University--while leaving our
>announced target in control. (Surely "the mob" would have been more
>kind and
>effective. If Saddam were the problem, they would have "whacked" him
>rather than slaughtering his children.)
>
> Our hubris shines through our imperfectly disguised attitudes
>toward
>Islam, attitudes that befoul our policies in the Middle East. It is
>asked: "How can we deal with these people?" As professor Huston Smith
>wrote: "During Europe's Dark Ages, Muslim philosophers and scientists
>kept the lamp of learning bright, ready to spark the Western mind when
>it roused from its long sleep." Muslims like Avicenna taught medicine
>to
>the backward Europeans. Arab states like Jordan and Egypt have shown
>the possibility of peaceful progress in the Middle East. These are not
>savages who can be calmed only by occupation. The solution is much
>simpler and it is found in the prophets of Israel. As Isaiah saw it, it
>
>is only if you plant justice that you will have peace. (Isa. 32) And
>occupation of another people is not justice.
>
> The problem goes beyond Islam. The poor of the world see an
>absence of
>pity in our economic policies. 1.3 billion are in absolute poverty, 70%
>
>of those being women. And poverty kills. 40 million people die yearly
>from hunger and hunger-related causes. This is like 320 jumbo jets
>planes crashing every day with half the passengers being children, as
>Clive
>Ponting points out in his monumental book A Green History of the World.
>The poor of the world are not dumb. They notice, as the United Nations
>points out, that 82.7 percent of the world's income goes to the top 20
>percent, leaving 17.3 percent for the rest of humanity. The poor notice
>
>that this does not engage U.S. politics or economics. We are the
>biggest actor on the world scene at the moment and they note a cold
>absence of
>pity, and they hate us for all of this.
>
> SOLUTIONS
>
> George Kennan once compared large nations to dinosaurs with
>brains the
>size of a pea. When struck they thrash out, destroying much and helping
>
>little. The Bush administration seems intent in living out this image.
>Bombing the victims of the Taliban will do not more good than bombing
>the children of Iraq who had been forced into the army. Building a new
>Maginot line of missile defense is tragically comedic. Tightening up
>security at the airlines as we should have done years ago is as late as
>it is inadequate. (Biological, chemical, and small atomic weapons are
>probably already in preparation.) All these are efforts to plug the
>spigot. What is needed is to turn off the faucet. The faucet is
>perceived injustice in the Middle East, the need for separate states for
>
>Israel and for the Palestinians. The faucet is the disastrous
>maldistribution of wealth in the world and the proliferation of
>starvation.
>
> Solving this maldistribution is not beyond our fiscal reach
>though it
>seems to be beyond our moral grasp. James Tobin, the Nobel
>prize-winning economist, suggested a 0.5 percent tax on all spot
>transactions in
>foreign exchange, including futures contracts and options. As economist
>
>David Kortin says: "The 0.5 percent Tobin tax on foreign exchange
>transactions would help dampen speculative international financial
>movements but would be too small to deter commodity trade or serious
>international investment commitments." The money could be used to
>retire those debts of poor countries that cannot be easily forgiven and
>it
>could finance the efforts of the United Nations and other agencies and
>non-governmental organizations to bring education, soil conservation,
>water-purification, micro-loans for cottage industries, family
>planning, and improved communications throughout the world.
>
> The Religions of the world need to rise to the occasion as they
>have
>not done so far. Religion is a powerful motivator. John Henry Cardinal
>
>Newman said that people will die for a dogma who will not stir for a
>conclusion. Nothing so stirs the will as the tincture of the sacred.
>Religions so far in this exploding crisis have mainly fulfilled their
>Prozak function of soothing the pain. This is good and all religions
>are into the purveying of comfort and hope. But the challenge of
>prophetic
>religion in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and increasingly in "engaged"
>Buddhism and Hinduism is to "speak truth to power." to "conscientize"
>power, and to discomfort power. This they have not done.
>
> We can pretend that we are purely innocent and that the hatred
>of us is
>"unfathomable." But the fact remains that the solution to the problems
>of poor,
>enslaved, or occupied people is not nuclear physics. All that is needed
>is the
>moral and political will. The poetic author of Deuteronomy put this
>exasperated plea into the mouth of God. "I have set before you life and
>
>I have set before you death, and I have begged you to choose life for
>the sake of your children." We can't seem to do it. The hope now is
>that
>with our military power embarrassed and our vulnerability terrifyingly
>clear, fear might be the penumbra of wisdom.
>
>
>Daniel C. Maguire
>2823 N. Summit Avenue
>Milwaukee WI 53211
Join Date: Jul 2001
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I am disgusted at the tragic loss of innocent human life in NY and DC.
But it is no more tragic than the loss of life suffered at the hands of the US Air Force on the road to Basra during the "Gulf War" ( a war that was never declared, sanctioned or ended - bombing continues to this day) where tens of thousands of innocent civilian men, women and children died in what was referred to as a turkey shoot.
Also, the 500,000 plus children mentioned before dying in Iraq as a direct result of US (I mean UN) trade sanctions.
From central and south America to Asia and the Middle East, there are millions of people angry enough to voice their distaste for US foreign policy and its devestating effects on the world. They just don't have access to aircraft carriers and cruise missiles.
The US government spin doctors will be working overtime ensuring that you and I will know very little truth of the events about to unfold.
But it is no more tragic than the loss of life suffered at the hands of the US Air Force on the road to Basra during the "Gulf War" ( a war that was never declared, sanctioned or ended - bombing continues to this day) where tens of thousands of innocent civilian men, women and children died in what was referred to as a turkey shoot.
Also, the 500,000 plus children mentioned before dying in Iraq as a direct result of US (I mean UN) trade sanctions.
From central and south America to Asia and the Middle East, there are millions of people angry enough to voice their distaste for US foreign policy and its devestating effects on the world. They just don't have access to aircraft carriers and cruise missiles.
The US government spin doctors will be working overtime ensuring that you and I will know very little truth of the events about to unfold.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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30 million an hour on defence!
How many lives could be saved if the US carpet bombed these places with food, medicine and clothes instead of bombs?
What ever the US decides it will be the wrong one....it's history repeated.
How many lives could be saved if the US carpet bombed these places with food, medicine and clothes instead of bombs?
What ever the US decides it will be the wrong one....it's history repeated.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Aust.
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2 questions for all those speaking out against UN policy as applied by the US over the last 60 years.
1. Do you believe the world would be a better place if the United States had remained nuetral during the 20th century?
2. Do you believe it would improve worldwide stability if it now removed all humanitarian,financial and military assistance from those currently recieving it, including the M/E?
While many are quick to accuse, hindsight is a beautiful thing and I firmly believe the outcomes achieved by the US far outweigh the alternative.
1. Do you believe the world would be a better place if the United States had remained nuetral during the 20th century?
2. Do you believe it would improve worldwide stability if it now removed all humanitarian,financial and military assistance from those currently recieving it, including the M/E?
While many are quick to accuse, hindsight is a beautiful thing and I firmly believe the outcomes achieved by the US far outweigh the alternative.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Chimbu, You were right it is a long post.
However, no one has yet explained why the
mega billions of oil money has not been
used to improve the lot of the Arab Muslim
communities. Also the mention that President
Bill would have handled this situation better
or differently, he had his chance when the
embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed,
if his administration had of done the job
properly at the time then these 6000 people
would very likely have still been among the
land of the living. Appeasement policies,
as has been shown many times in the past,
dont work.
However, no one has yet explained why the
mega billions of oil money has not been
used to improve the lot of the Arab Muslim
communities. Also the mention that President
Bill would have handled this situation better
or differently, he had his chance when the
embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed,
if his administration had of done the job
properly at the time then these 6000 people
would very likely have still been among the
land of the living. Appeasement policies,
as has been shown many times in the past,
dont work.
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While the historical reasons for the recent barbarity in the U.S. deserve some credence, and I am certain there will be considerable analysis and debate on these in the coming months/years, it must not be used to cloud or in any way diminish the absolute depravity of last weeks attacks, by well meaning (or otherwise) people who are at best a little naive, and/or who appear to have very short memories.
The tall poppie syndrome is alive and well - not just in Australia but across the globe, and it is oft used by certain groups to further their own causes. It's interesting (albeit predictable) to watch the left wingers slowly emerging from their bunkers after last weeks attacks - espousing the view that the U.S. got what it deserved, and retaliation is not the way forward.
For those of you who may be partial to this line of rhetoric - I ask the following:
1: Do you honestly believe that these attacks were aimed solely at the U.S.A. ? If so - you are sadly mistaken. They were an attack on the financial nerve centre of the western world, and the full ramifications have not even started to be felt. I will be interested in your views six months from now when the inevitable financial meltdown has had a far greater impact on your lives than it currently has.
2: Do you honestly believe that you would be living your current "secure" and relatively prosperous and peaceful (until now) lives if not for the U.S.A. and it's foreign policies over the last 50 years ? Dream On ! - Chances are you and everyone/thing you know would not exist, as your parents/grand parents would not have survived the invasion of Australia some 60 years ago. Most Australians seem blissfully unaware just how close Japan was to making this country the emperors property. You talk of history - do some research on the rape of China by Japans forces back in the dark days of WW2. History would undoubtedly be recalling the rape of Australia had it not been for the U.S.
3: Do you honestly believe that Australia is immune to attacks from these fanatics. If so - Pull your head out of the sand. It is more than likely not a matter of if - it's a matter of when. What will your opinion be should the unthinkable happen on Australian soil ? Let's face it - Two civilian airliners plowing into the WTC was unthinkable two weeks ago.
4: Do you honestly believe that the U.S. is the cause of all the misery in these countries ? One look at how the likes of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein treat their own citizens is testament to this fallacy. Track down a few of the more sinister sites on the net where you can download endless mpg's showing public executions of men and women, incorporating various methods from public stonings, hangings and automatic weapons fire. These despots survive by instilling terror into their people - all via a twisted interpretation of Islam. How much respect do you think they would have for the freedoms that many in the west take for granted and indeed frequently abuse ? How much respect do you think they have for your life or any human life ? Nil is the only reasonable conclusion one can arrive at.
Sure - the U.S. has had some dubious policies in the past and ultimately self interest at heart - But what country doesn't ? The psycho's that actually committed these acts all had self interest at heart - a one way ticket to Nirvana - at the expense of tens of thousands of innocents - both the victims and their shattered families.
The bleeding heart - anti U.S. brigade will undoubtedly become more vocal as the dust settles over where the WTC used to stand, but ultimately there is only one response that can be considered - and it must be a response that sends a clear message to oranisations and countries financing and nurturing terrorism. It is not war on the peaceful religion of Islam or muslims as a whole - it is war on the twisted people who use Islam to further their own ends, and warp the minds of a minority of their people to achieve this - whatever the cost.
I am by no means a hawk - violence of any kind sickens me - however I am a realist - and the reality is that fanatical religious zealots must be eliminated if any kind of lasting peace and prosperity on this planet is to be achieved.
The tall poppie syndrome is alive and well - not just in Australia but across the globe, and it is oft used by certain groups to further their own causes. It's interesting (albeit predictable) to watch the left wingers slowly emerging from their bunkers after last weeks attacks - espousing the view that the U.S. got what it deserved, and retaliation is not the way forward.
For those of you who may be partial to this line of rhetoric - I ask the following:
1: Do you honestly believe that these attacks were aimed solely at the U.S.A. ? If so - you are sadly mistaken. They were an attack on the financial nerve centre of the western world, and the full ramifications have not even started to be felt. I will be interested in your views six months from now when the inevitable financial meltdown has had a far greater impact on your lives than it currently has.
2: Do you honestly believe that you would be living your current "secure" and relatively prosperous and peaceful (until now) lives if not for the U.S.A. and it's foreign policies over the last 50 years ? Dream On ! - Chances are you and everyone/thing you know would not exist, as your parents/grand parents would not have survived the invasion of Australia some 60 years ago. Most Australians seem blissfully unaware just how close Japan was to making this country the emperors property. You talk of history - do some research on the rape of China by Japans forces back in the dark days of WW2. History would undoubtedly be recalling the rape of Australia had it not been for the U.S.
3: Do you honestly believe that Australia is immune to attacks from these fanatics. If so - Pull your head out of the sand. It is more than likely not a matter of if - it's a matter of when. What will your opinion be should the unthinkable happen on Australian soil ? Let's face it - Two civilian airliners plowing into the WTC was unthinkable two weeks ago.
4: Do you honestly believe that the U.S. is the cause of all the misery in these countries ? One look at how the likes of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein treat their own citizens is testament to this fallacy. Track down a few of the more sinister sites on the net where you can download endless mpg's showing public executions of men and women, incorporating various methods from public stonings, hangings and automatic weapons fire. These despots survive by instilling terror into their people - all via a twisted interpretation of Islam. How much respect do you think they would have for the freedoms that many in the west take for granted and indeed frequently abuse ? How much respect do you think they have for your life or any human life ? Nil is the only reasonable conclusion one can arrive at.
Sure - the U.S. has had some dubious policies in the past and ultimately self interest at heart - But what country doesn't ? The psycho's that actually committed these acts all had self interest at heart - a one way ticket to Nirvana - at the expense of tens of thousands of innocents - both the victims and their shattered families.
The bleeding heart - anti U.S. brigade will undoubtedly become more vocal as the dust settles over where the WTC used to stand, but ultimately there is only one response that can be considered - and it must be a response that sends a clear message to oranisations and countries financing and nurturing terrorism. It is not war on the peaceful religion of Islam or muslims as a whole - it is war on the twisted people who use Islam to further their own ends, and warp the minds of a minority of their people to achieve this - whatever the cost.
I am by no means a hawk - violence of any kind sickens me - however I am a realist - and the reality is that fanatical religious zealots must be eliminated if any kind of lasting peace and prosperity on this planet is to be achieved.
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No one side always (if ever) wears the ‘white hats’ in international relations. International relations are about national survival, and the US, like every major power before it , has more than a little blood on its hands in achieving its national goals. I know many won’t agree with me, but I’d make so bold to say that being oppressed by the US, as many small nations have been over the last 60 years, has frequently been an easier if still bitter yoke to bear for the majority of those oppressed than the alternative.
Anyone with even a passing interest in the events that will soon take place should do themselves a HUGE favour and buy a book that will explain much of what’s happened and is about to happen in chilling, prophetic detail, right down to the author’s assertion that the next war would not be between nation states, but ideas.
I cannot urge you too strongly to find this book and read it. 'The Coming Anarchy' by Robert D. Kaplan, ISBN 0-375-70759-X
Anyone with even a passing interest in the events that will soon take place should do themselves a HUGE favour and buy a book that will explain much of what’s happened and is about to happen in chilling, prophetic detail, right down to the author’s assertion that the next war would not be between nation states, but ideas.
I cannot urge you too strongly to find this book and read it. 'The Coming Anarchy' by Robert D. Kaplan, ISBN 0-375-70759-X
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I hear what you're saying Chimbu, but even if all that you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), then you are saying that there is a "cause and effect" scenario here. That is what I saw in your previous post too, which is why I came in so hard.
The message I got from your post, and am still getting, is that certain things happened in the past, so the death of 6000+ inncoent civilians is justified. I don't see any way to justify that sort of carnage, that sort of holocaust.
This isn't the worst crime in the last 100 years, but it's certainly up there with the worst of them. And the domino effect of crumbling world finances will begin to hit us all at some stage, so maybe none of us will have a job for much longer. We then become more of the innocent victims.
It took some cold, calculating and perhaps even deeply psychotic minds to devise of this attrocity - even more of the same was needed by those who carried out it. Do we still need to think about who did what to whom in the last 100 years? The last 1,000 years? And, while we're doing that, the terrorists are planning their next and perhaps far more grusome attacks.
No, I think we've gone way beyond any opportunty to fix this problem, without WW3. And maybe that's how it should be, if we can't find a solution in any other way.
You may have seen, as I have, a massive increase in the amount of propaganda e-mail, ever since the US warships started heading toward Afghanistan. Somebody is clearly very worried that "the west" is about to do some serious ass kicking. And, for mine, I think it's high time something tangible was done about it.
I agree that President Clinton didn't do enough about the problem. Indeed, after the suicide bombing of USS Cole, the US Navy withdrew from that part of the world. Was that the right move? 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing...
The message I got from your post, and am still getting, is that certain things happened in the past, so the death of 6000+ inncoent civilians is justified. I don't see any way to justify that sort of carnage, that sort of holocaust.
This isn't the worst crime in the last 100 years, but it's certainly up there with the worst of them. And the domino effect of crumbling world finances will begin to hit us all at some stage, so maybe none of us will have a job for much longer. We then become more of the innocent victims.
It took some cold, calculating and perhaps even deeply psychotic minds to devise of this attrocity - even more of the same was needed by those who carried out it. Do we still need to think about who did what to whom in the last 100 years? The last 1,000 years? And, while we're doing that, the terrorists are planning their next and perhaps far more grusome attacks.
No, I think we've gone way beyond any opportunty to fix this problem, without WW3. And maybe that's how it should be, if we can't find a solution in any other way.
You may have seen, as I have, a massive increase in the amount of propaganda e-mail, ever since the US warships started heading toward Afghanistan. Somebody is clearly very worried that "the west" is about to do some serious ass kicking. And, for mine, I think it's high time something tangible was done about it.
I agree that President Clinton didn't do enough about the problem. Indeed, after the suicide bombing of USS Cole, the US Navy withdrew from that part of the world. Was that the right move? 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing...
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Many Americans (including their leaders) seem to have some difficulty seeing any situation from the other side’s perspective. Thus, when they react with measured caution to a threat or an outrage, (or work on the ‘everything’s negotiable’ principle, as W.J. Clinton and the disastrous Jimmy Carter were both wont to do), it’s not always the case that the other side perceives that caution to be wise, as many liberal Westerners might, but weak.
It’s distressing to say this, (and I don’t want to even consider the horrible consequences for so many innocent people), but by ‘overreacting’ with a massive use of force, America might just gain some respect from many of the people who loathe it so deeply. They won’t love it any more than they do now, but they will see it react in a way they understand, as strong men in their cultures react when threatened – with terrible ferocity and utterly no mercy.
The last nation to think the Americans were weak was the Japanese. They paid a terrible price in learning that this wasn’t so. I’d like to think this will be resolved without something similarly terrible happening to many thousands of innocent people, but I fear it will not. I also fear that we’ve started out on an ever-tightening ‘horror’ ratchet. What would be seen this week as totally unacceptable will, in three week’s time, not be so, and three week’s after that…. And so on, a bit like the moral descent into wholesale carpet bombing of cities in WW2. In 1939, it was leaflets; 1940, pin point bombing of military targets; 1941, night area bombing; and by 1945, Dresden and Hiroshima.
It’s distressing to say this, (and I don’t want to even consider the horrible consequences for so many innocent people), but by ‘overreacting’ with a massive use of force, America might just gain some respect from many of the people who loathe it so deeply. They won’t love it any more than they do now, but they will see it react in a way they understand, as strong men in their cultures react when threatened – with terrible ferocity and utterly no mercy.
The last nation to think the Americans were weak was the Japanese. They paid a terrible price in learning that this wasn’t so. I’d like to think this will be resolved without something similarly terrible happening to many thousands of innocent people, but I fear it will not. I also fear that we’ve started out on an ever-tightening ‘horror’ ratchet. What would be seen this week as totally unacceptable will, in three week’s time, not be so, and three week’s after that…. And so on, a bit like the moral descent into wholesale carpet bombing of cities in WW2. In 1939, it was leaflets; 1940, pin point bombing of military targets; 1941, night area bombing; and by 1945, Dresden and Hiroshima.
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Dundee,
My opinion to each question raised,
1. Yes. the attacks were aimed purely at the US, although the consequences are far reaching, beyond US borders. You will notice that nearly all terrorist attacks of this sort have been aimed at the US or its offices around the globe (USS Cole - embassies in Sudan etc.)
2. I beleive the US did in fact contribute towards security in the south western pacific during WW2. The US has had and continues to have some foreign policies that do, not by design or intent, result in harmony or peace in places such as Oz. But make no mistake, US foreign policy is driven by factors and implimented for reasons of financial stability for the US only.
3. Australia is a small player on the world stage and has little effect on many countries beyond our immediate surrounds. The regions known to harbour terrorists have probably felt little or no effect of Oz foreign policy and have no reason to retaliate. Except maybe NZ.
4.Its interesting that you made reference to both Saddam and the Taliban as being the cause of misery to their own countrymen. Both these regimes were encouraged by the US and the UK and prospered from an almost endless supply of greenbacks. The Taliban is said to have received as much as 35 Billion dollars from the Reagan Admin. Osama Bin Laden was known as a US "asset" as recently as 1990 and in 1988 President Bush called Saddam "our freind in the middle east".
These serve as examples of how the US espouse the virtues of freedom and democracy and yet pursue policies and finance regimes that stand for the exact opposite.
My opinion to each question raised,
1. Yes. the attacks were aimed purely at the US, although the consequences are far reaching, beyond US borders. You will notice that nearly all terrorist attacks of this sort have been aimed at the US or its offices around the globe (USS Cole - embassies in Sudan etc.)
2. I beleive the US did in fact contribute towards security in the south western pacific during WW2. The US has had and continues to have some foreign policies that do, not by design or intent, result in harmony or peace in places such as Oz. But make no mistake, US foreign policy is driven by factors and implimented for reasons of financial stability for the US only.
3. Australia is a small player on the world stage and has little effect on many countries beyond our immediate surrounds. The regions known to harbour terrorists have probably felt little or no effect of Oz foreign policy and have no reason to retaliate. Except maybe NZ.
4.Its interesting that you made reference to both Saddam and the Taliban as being the cause of misery to their own countrymen. Both these regimes were encouraged by the US and the UK and prospered from an almost endless supply of greenbacks. The Taliban is said to have received as much as 35 Billion dollars from the Reagan Admin. Osama Bin Laden was known as a US "asset" as recently as 1990 and in 1988 President Bush called Saddam "our freind in the middle east".
These serve as examples of how the US espouse the virtues of freedom and democracy and yet pursue policies and finance regimes that stand for the exact opposite.
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Here we have another Vietnam, a war that can't be won. The way that this matter is handled by the US will shape the way that we live our lives for the next 100 years or so, maybe even longer. It is unlike any other battle that has been waged before. The enemy is unknown and they could be anywhere, they already have infiltrated the US and there is nothing the yanks can do about it. The future terrorists are just like you and me.
It was almost inevitable that Sept 11 was going to happen at one time or another, they've been trying to do this sort of thing for ages, no-one could have imagined the scale though. Unfortunately these things happen when you are the world's policeman.
It is alarming to see the anti-muslim activities on the increase in oz and abroad. It is so unaustralian to do things like that (discriminate to that extent, often against children.. easy targets.) Anyone who says that they are acting in such a way for the good of Australia etc is not Australian, and they are like the people who are responsible for the terrorist attacks etc. That is probably what the islamic community are saying about the terrorists??? One would hope...
Here's to hoping that the US have a cool head in a very heated political environment.
Time to jump off my soap box....
Good luck to all of us
It was almost inevitable that Sept 11 was going to happen at one time or another, they've been trying to do this sort of thing for ages, no-one could have imagined the scale though. Unfortunately these things happen when you are the world's policeman.
It is alarming to see the anti-muslim activities on the increase in oz and abroad. It is so unaustralian to do things like that (discriminate to that extent, often against children.. easy targets.) Anyone who says that they are acting in such a way for the good of Australia etc is not Australian, and they are like the people who are responsible for the terrorist attacks etc. That is probably what the islamic community are saying about the terrorists??? One would hope...
Here's to hoping that the US have a cool head in a very heated political environment.
Time to jump off my soap box....
Good luck to all of us
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
No where in any of my posts have I said that ANYTHING justifies what happened in NY and Washington.
I am about as left wing as George W!
You will note that Professor Macquire refers to the Taliban as Nazi equivalents and Bin Laden as a modern day Hitler!
I agree whole heartedly.
You will note also in his writings he makes reference to the fact that the 'Mob' would have done a better job with Saddam Hussien and just 'whacked' him rather than killing thousands of his 'family'.
Does this guy sound like a Dove or a Hawke?
He also likens, and I've seen the same thing said by an Afgan writer,the people of Afghanistan to the Jewish inmates of the Concentration Camps in WW2.
Is he not agreeing with those who suggest that the ordinary folk of these countries are powerless victims of amazingly brutal tyrany!
So do you think this guy would agree or disagree with any efforts to 'remove' Hussien and the Taliban/Bin Laden from the world stage?
Airag,
To answer question 1, no the world would NOT have been a better place if the US had completely disconnected after WW2. That does not mean to say that they couldn't have done a much better job than they have done.
Question 2.
As far as I can tell not too many countries that the US supports financially were involved with this attack, or any others!
In the Middle East there are only two distinctions in Counties as far as the US is concerned. Israel who gets unlimited support a few other Oil producers who it has defended ONLY because they have Oil, and a whole raft of places who are 'pariah states' and are sanctioned.Give me an example of sanctions that have worked in the 20th century. Cuba?,Iraq?Afghanistan?, Pakistan?,Libya?...sorry cant think of one that hurt the bad guys for 30 seconds! I can think of a bunch that have created great suffering among the ordinary folk.....and guess where the Bin Ladens of this world get there suicide squads from!
In last point you suggest we are only accusing with hindsight. Not so, I merely suggest it might be valuable to learn the lessons of history...that's what hindsight is all about! Or in your daily job of pilot, presumably, do you not improve your performance based on the mistakes you have made, or seen others make, in the past.
Prospector agreed!
Dundee yes Australia could see a 767 through the Center Point Tower tommorrow which is why we should be standing with the rest of the Western World to ensure thiis problem is solved as quickly as possible.
By the way, as far as the US in Pacific in WW2 is concerned, MacCarther wanted to let the Japanese invade Australia. It would have so spread their available resources that they would have been finished. As it was they couldn't even take Port Moresby in the end so what hope for Australia? The yanks didn't save Australia is much as the tyrany of distant supply lines and geography!
I agree with your last point and consider myself to be more Hawke than Dove!
410, Oppression is oppression....period.
Oz this isn't in the running for 52nd place in the worst crimes of the last 100 years comp! The Russains and the Chinese killed upward of 40 million EACH of there own people in the first half of the 20th century, and thats not during wartime!
Lets compare some truly wonderful victories and some truly disgracefull defeats of the 20th Century.
WW2;
Germany invades all of Europe and is responsible for the MURDER of MILLIONS of harmless, innocent people.
The Allies with the enormous help of the US reduce germany to rubble kill 100s of thousands of Germans....remove,convict and execute all those perpetrators who dont bite a cyanide pill or shoot themselves with a pistol(ignoring those who escape to South America)
The Allies then swing into action with the Berlin Airlift and save West Germany, rebuild it and have an ally for life!(yes the Russians were part of the reason but the result from the Germans point of view is the same.
Japan after it's attrocities in China attacks the US and invades all the rest of Asia. The US with help from the rest of us reduces Japan to ashes, kills 100s of thousand of Japanese in the worst bombing raids in history. They remove, with the exception of Emperor Hirohito the perpetrators, convict and execute all those who don't commit Hari Kari first.
Japan is rebuilt with the aid of the west, mostly the US, and now have a Constitution that is completely pacifist in nature and a defence force that exists ONLY for DEFENCE. They are friends for life!
Korea. Thousand die on both sides, the 'WAR' is technically still going on and North Korea is one of the bigger worries the west has.It is also starving it population while looking to build Nuclear weapons!
Vietnam. What a complete waste of time!
The Gulf War. After Saddam has spent decades killing Iranians, Kurds and his own people with chemical weapons, and anything else that came to hand, he invades Kuwait and the whole Western World goes berserk 'cause the price of petrol will go up! They fight a war and after victory is assured and the Iraqi armed forces are crushed they......just stop. Swatzkopf rippes his hair out because he wants to finish it but Bush Senior wont let him.Result? The last 10 years!
Am I being fairly clear here?
Chuck.
I am about as left wing as George W!
You will note that Professor Macquire refers to the Taliban as Nazi equivalents and Bin Laden as a modern day Hitler!
I agree whole heartedly.
You will note also in his writings he makes reference to the fact that the 'Mob' would have done a better job with Saddam Hussien and just 'whacked' him rather than killing thousands of his 'family'.
Does this guy sound like a Dove or a Hawke?
He also likens, and I've seen the same thing said by an Afgan writer,the people of Afghanistan to the Jewish inmates of the Concentration Camps in WW2.
Is he not agreeing with those who suggest that the ordinary folk of these countries are powerless victims of amazingly brutal tyrany!
So do you think this guy would agree or disagree with any efforts to 'remove' Hussien and the Taliban/Bin Laden from the world stage?
Airag,
To answer question 1, no the world would NOT have been a better place if the US had completely disconnected after WW2. That does not mean to say that they couldn't have done a much better job than they have done.
Question 2.
As far as I can tell not too many countries that the US supports financially were involved with this attack, or any others!
In the Middle East there are only two distinctions in Counties as far as the US is concerned. Israel who gets unlimited support a few other Oil producers who it has defended ONLY because they have Oil, and a whole raft of places who are 'pariah states' and are sanctioned.Give me an example of sanctions that have worked in the 20th century. Cuba?,Iraq?Afghanistan?, Pakistan?,Libya?...sorry cant think of one that hurt the bad guys for 30 seconds! I can think of a bunch that have created great suffering among the ordinary folk.....and guess where the Bin Ladens of this world get there suicide squads from!
In last point you suggest we are only accusing with hindsight. Not so, I merely suggest it might be valuable to learn the lessons of history...that's what hindsight is all about! Or in your daily job of pilot, presumably, do you not improve your performance based on the mistakes you have made, or seen others make, in the past.
Prospector agreed!
Dundee yes Australia could see a 767 through the Center Point Tower tommorrow which is why we should be standing with the rest of the Western World to ensure thiis problem is solved as quickly as possible.
By the way, as far as the US in Pacific in WW2 is concerned, MacCarther wanted to let the Japanese invade Australia. It would have so spread their available resources that they would have been finished. As it was they couldn't even take Port Moresby in the end so what hope for Australia? The yanks didn't save Australia is much as the tyrany of distant supply lines and geography!
I agree with your last point and consider myself to be more Hawke than Dove!
410, Oppression is oppression....period.
Oz this isn't in the running for 52nd place in the worst crimes of the last 100 years comp! The Russains and the Chinese killed upward of 40 million EACH of there own people in the first half of the 20th century, and thats not during wartime!
Lets compare some truly wonderful victories and some truly disgracefull defeats of the 20th Century.
WW2;
Germany invades all of Europe and is responsible for the MURDER of MILLIONS of harmless, innocent people.
The Allies with the enormous help of the US reduce germany to rubble kill 100s of thousands of Germans....remove,convict and execute all those perpetrators who dont bite a cyanide pill or shoot themselves with a pistol(ignoring those who escape to South America)
The Allies then swing into action with the Berlin Airlift and save West Germany, rebuild it and have an ally for life!(yes the Russians were part of the reason but the result from the Germans point of view is the same.
Japan after it's attrocities in China attacks the US and invades all the rest of Asia. The US with help from the rest of us reduces Japan to ashes, kills 100s of thousand of Japanese in the worst bombing raids in history. They remove, with the exception of Emperor Hirohito the perpetrators, convict and execute all those who don't commit Hari Kari first.
Japan is rebuilt with the aid of the west, mostly the US, and now have a Constitution that is completely pacifist in nature and a defence force that exists ONLY for DEFENCE. They are friends for life!
Korea. Thousand die on both sides, the 'WAR' is technically still going on and North Korea is one of the bigger worries the west has.It is also starving it population while looking to build Nuclear weapons!
Vietnam. What a complete waste of time!
The Gulf War. After Saddam has spent decades killing Iranians, Kurds and his own people with chemical weapons, and anything else that came to hand, he invades Kuwait and the whole Western World goes berserk 'cause the price of petrol will go up! They fight a war and after victory is assured and the Iraqi armed forces are crushed they......just stop. Swatzkopf rippes his hair out because he wants to finish it but Bush Senior wont let him.Result? The last 10 years!
Am I being fairly clear here?
Chuck.
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Is America making an error in sending troops to the Middle East; so far all that has happened is some sabre rattling - not unreasonable requests for the alleged perpetrators to be given up for trial. Yes, these have been accompanied by threats and deadlines - but would you have them say - 'Oh chaps, by the way when you're ready, could we please, if you don't mind, and in your own time, let us have a discussion about these rather nasty chappies in your country'.
Is Bin Laden guilty, well he's certainly no innocent victim of a witch-hunt - he wasn't chucked out of his family and country because he's misunderstood. But, he may well not be guilty of this attack, does that mean we should just turn our backs on what has happened, because either we fear the consequences, or from guilt of being the cause.
Many muslims are saying that if America attacks Afghanistan, whom they consider brother moslems, they will fight to the death for them. Have they not thought that this is exactly how many western peoples now feel - why is it right for them and not for us.
Whether this is a result of American policy or not, is irrelevant - these terrorists are not poverty-striken, down-trodden people - and their leaders certainly don't lack funding. The terrorists were well-educated and middle-class, funded by 'whomever', they were able to live in relative comfort whilst they plotted their deadly schemes against their hosts. I think you'll find that totally against Islamic principles.
Those misguided Americans who funded the IRA and other Irish terrorism must now open their eyes, if they wish to be seen as serious about fighting this evil. It is very easy to sit in comfort and romanticise about 'freedom fighters', but the reality is that their money funded weapons which killed innocents.
For all the fine words of Tony Blair about fighting terrorism, he has not come to terms with the fact that he has allowed terrorists to take advantage of our liberal and pacific society. Even now, there are protestors spewing out hatred of Britain and America in the streets of London and we look on in an uncomprehending daze. We tolerate extremists and allow them freedom precisely because we are afraid to stand up for fear of being accused of racism. So we stand and watch as our liberties are curtailed just in case we upset some sensitive bully, who still feels he should have the right to abuse our hospitality, but that we in turn should accommodate his hatred of us (for after all are we not responsbile for his destruction of his country).
It is not the corruption of their leaders, and the prevalence of local wars in poverty striken nations, but western policy that is to blame. It is not the need for these leaders to have billions of dollars stashed away in Swiss bank accounts, but the rape of their countries by western nations (that most were left in a fairly wealthy state is irrelevant) that is to blame for the current starvation and refugees leaving in droves. Fleeing to those very countries which are blamed for their problems.
Yes America and the west has made mistakes in the last decades, and yes, it could have been done better. But, how much of the wealth of these nations has been squandered in petty local wars, decimation of both their natural resources and people through their leaders' greed and hunger for power.
Unfortunately, I don't believe that a war against terrorism will be won on the mountains of Afghanistan, nor by massive military might in the Gulf. The people who actually carried out this attack are dead, along with all their victims - but maybe until America has done something, anything, they won't be able to move on. It is not yet time for healing, but let us hope once again that going to the brink will shock everyone enough to take that step backwards.
This is not just a simple war (if there is such a thing), this could result in the total destruction of mankind - should we not take stock first.
Is Bin Laden guilty, well he's certainly no innocent victim of a witch-hunt - he wasn't chucked out of his family and country because he's misunderstood. But, he may well not be guilty of this attack, does that mean we should just turn our backs on what has happened, because either we fear the consequences, or from guilt of being the cause.
Many muslims are saying that if America attacks Afghanistan, whom they consider brother moslems, they will fight to the death for them. Have they not thought that this is exactly how many western peoples now feel - why is it right for them and not for us.
Whether this is a result of American policy or not, is irrelevant - these terrorists are not poverty-striken, down-trodden people - and their leaders certainly don't lack funding. The terrorists were well-educated and middle-class, funded by 'whomever', they were able to live in relative comfort whilst they plotted their deadly schemes against their hosts. I think you'll find that totally against Islamic principles.
Those misguided Americans who funded the IRA and other Irish terrorism must now open their eyes, if they wish to be seen as serious about fighting this evil. It is very easy to sit in comfort and romanticise about 'freedom fighters', but the reality is that their money funded weapons which killed innocents.
For all the fine words of Tony Blair about fighting terrorism, he has not come to terms with the fact that he has allowed terrorists to take advantage of our liberal and pacific society. Even now, there are protestors spewing out hatred of Britain and America in the streets of London and we look on in an uncomprehending daze. We tolerate extremists and allow them freedom precisely because we are afraid to stand up for fear of being accused of racism. So we stand and watch as our liberties are curtailed just in case we upset some sensitive bully, who still feels he should have the right to abuse our hospitality, but that we in turn should accommodate his hatred of us (for after all are we not responsbile for his destruction of his country).
It is not the corruption of their leaders, and the prevalence of local wars in poverty striken nations, but western policy that is to blame. It is not the need for these leaders to have billions of dollars stashed away in Swiss bank accounts, but the rape of their countries by western nations (that most were left in a fairly wealthy state is irrelevant) that is to blame for the current starvation and refugees leaving in droves. Fleeing to those very countries which are blamed for their problems.
Yes America and the west has made mistakes in the last decades, and yes, it could have been done better. But, how much of the wealth of these nations has been squandered in petty local wars, decimation of both their natural resources and people through their leaders' greed and hunger for power.
Unfortunately, I don't believe that a war against terrorism will be won on the mountains of Afghanistan, nor by massive military might in the Gulf. The people who actually carried out this attack are dead, along with all their victims - but maybe until America has done something, anything, they won't be able to move on. It is not yet time for healing, but let us hope once again that going to the brink will shock everyone enough to take that step backwards.
This is not just a simple war (if there is such a thing), this could result in the total destruction of mankind - should we not take stock first.
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Chimbu...
I also agree. But the message I got from your original post was that such people are a product of past "injustices". To me, this seemed to be making a point in favour of the "cause and effect" scenario.
Well resourced individuals such as bin Laden and, yes, even Saddam Hussein, have far loftier goals than simple revenge. IMHO they seek to create absolute chaos, to bring down all the "western" powers. They might then have a chance to rule the world. So, yes, to that extent, bin Laden and Hitler have much in common.
Perpetrating heinous crimes against innocent humanity is another trait shared by Hitler, bin Laden and Saddam. None of them are the result of past "injustices" either, though I feel sure that this is the very thing they try to hide behind. Thus, we need to separate these inhuman butchers from any discussion of "cause and effect".
I think it most curious that there isn't a lot of voluble outrage from other Muslim nations, but maybe that is just coincidence.
However, I think that some correction is needed as far as the Japanese plans to invade New Guinea are concerned. Yes, true, it all failed because their troops were pushed back on the Kokoda Track and at Milne Bay. But the fact is that this was their only throw of the dice ... the battle of the Coral Sea, while technically a Japanese victory, forced them to rethink the way to invade New Guinea.
Thus, they were well and truly on the back foot after the Cora Sea encounter in May 1942. Any further plans for direct seaborne invasion of Port Moresby ended with the Battle of Midway, in June 1942. So, if the US hadn't been in the Coral Sea, Port Moresby certainly would have fallen to seaborne invasion in May of 1942. By default then, Australia would have been next to fall.
You will note that Professor Macquire refers to the Taliban as Nazi equivalents and Bin Laden as a modern day Hitler!
Well resourced individuals such as bin Laden and, yes, even Saddam Hussein, have far loftier goals than simple revenge. IMHO they seek to create absolute chaos, to bring down all the "western" powers. They might then have a chance to rule the world. So, yes, to that extent, bin Laden and Hitler have much in common.
Perpetrating heinous crimes against innocent humanity is another trait shared by Hitler, bin Laden and Saddam. None of them are the result of past "injustices" either, though I feel sure that this is the very thing they try to hide behind. Thus, we need to separate these inhuman butchers from any discussion of "cause and effect".
I think it most curious that there isn't a lot of voluble outrage from other Muslim nations, but maybe that is just coincidence.
However, I think that some correction is needed as far as the Japanese plans to invade New Guinea are concerned. Yes, true, it all failed because their troops were pushed back on the Kokoda Track and at Milne Bay. But the fact is that this was their only throw of the dice ... the battle of the Coral Sea, while technically a Japanese victory, forced them to rethink the way to invade New Guinea.
Thus, they were well and truly on the back foot after the Cora Sea encounter in May 1942. Any further plans for direct seaborne invasion of Port Moresby ended with the Battle of Midway, in June 1942. So, if the US hadn't been in the Coral Sea, Port Moresby certainly would have fallen to seaborne invasion in May of 1942. By default then, Australia would have been next to fall.
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Folks,
Like so many things, it doesn't matter so much how we got here - the really critical bit is what we do from here!
Nothing on either side justifies the intensely criminal act of terror perpetrated on some 6000 people. Importantly, that act of terror does not justify a further criminal act of terror against a somewhat less well defined group of people in Asia or the Middle East.
I understand and empathise with the pain and the anguish of the US. However, I do not understand those who so quickly rally to the flag of racism and revenge.
Bombing the dust of Afghanistan into smaller dust particles and further complicating the lives of an already ruined people will achieve nothing but a fleeting feeling of bravado amongst those too shallow to see that the problem remains unsolved.
Someone said: "Remember the difference between revenge and justice."
All of the outrage and finances of the US and the Coaltion should not be devoted to overt military action - it must be channelled into international police activities and covert counter-terrorist operations.
This is one time that all of the political noise should be converted into a steely but largely silent resolve to obliterate the threat of terrorism to us all while absolutely minimising the "collateral damage".
There is only one immediate solution:
Sneak into their shadow world and make them frightened to live there!
Like so many things, it doesn't matter so much how we got here - the really critical bit is what we do from here!
Nothing on either side justifies the intensely criminal act of terror perpetrated on some 6000 people. Importantly, that act of terror does not justify a further criminal act of terror against a somewhat less well defined group of people in Asia or the Middle East.
I understand and empathise with the pain and the anguish of the US. However, I do not understand those who so quickly rally to the flag of racism and revenge.
Bombing the dust of Afghanistan into smaller dust particles and further complicating the lives of an already ruined people will achieve nothing but a fleeting feeling of bravado amongst those too shallow to see that the problem remains unsolved.
Someone said: "Remember the difference between revenge and justice."
All of the outrage and finances of the US and the Coaltion should not be devoted to overt military action - it must be channelled into international police activities and covert counter-terrorist operations.
This is one time that all of the political noise should be converted into a steely but largely silent resolve to obliterate the threat of terrorism to us all while absolutely minimising the "collateral damage".
There is only one immediate solution:
Sneak into their shadow world and make them frightened to live there!
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There are a lot of good and well thought out submissions on this thread varying from Hawks and Doves.
I think as time goes on we all may more clearly see where we go from here. Now is not the time for the hammer of war but more for the scalpel to neatly remove this scourge of terorism.
But we must address the CAUSE of terrorism. I believe that UNLESS the USA provides a more even-handed attitude with regard to Palestine AND Israel, then there is no long-term hope for mankind. Both these countries deserve their independence, and UNTIL this is done PEACEFULLY we cannot move forward.
With the approach of winter, we will see massive starvation facing the common people of Afghanistan. The Western Alliance must bear this in mind and provide sustenance to these people as well as the overthrow of that evil, mediaeval Taliban regime! Hearts and minds AND stomachs!
Chimbu: I appreciate your well reasoned arguments but with regard to the 1991 Gulf War I must disagree. While Bush Senior would have loved to finish Saddam, his hands were tied. The USA was the leader of a multi national force sanctioned by the UN to liberate Kuwait. There was NO UN mandate to invade Iraq! In fact any such invasion, other than to defeat Saddam's armies, would have lead to the collapse of the alliance and a possible Jihad from other Moslem countries.
4 Dogs: I agree that covert operations are the way to go. See my post in War of the Worlds re. the SAS assets already in Afghanistan!
May your God - whoever He or She may be - grant us all the vision of wise men and the courage and forbearance to see us through the coming weeks and months of trials.
I think as time goes on we all may more clearly see where we go from here. Now is not the time for the hammer of war but more for the scalpel to neatly remove this scourge of terorism.
But we must address the CAUSE of terrorism. I believe that UNLESS the USA provides a more even-handed attitude with regard to Palestine AND Israel, then there is no long-term hope for mankind. Both these countries deserve their independence, and UNTIL this is done PEACEFULLY we cannot move forward.
With the approach of winter, we will see massive starvation facing the common people of Afghanistan. The Western Alliance must bear this in mind and provide sustenance to these people as well as the overthrow of that evil, mediaeval Taliban regime! Hearts and minds AND stomachs!
Chimbu: I appreciate your well reasoned arguments but with regard to the 1991 Gulf War I must disagree. While Bush Senior would have loved to finish Saddam, his hands were tied. The USA was the leader of a multi national force sanctioned by the UN to liberate Kuwait. There was NO UN mandate to invade Iraq! In fact any such invasion, other than to defeat Saddam's armies, would have lead to the collapse of the alliance and a possible Jihad from other Moslem countries.
4 Dogs: I agree that covert operations are the way to go. See my post in War of the Worlds re. the SAS assets already in Afghanistan!
May your God - whoever He or She may be - grant us all the vision of wise men and the courage and forbearance to see us through the coming weeks and months of trials.
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Congratulations Chimbu et al, this is one of the most intelligent threads posted on Pprune.
Like the rest of the western world and the aviation community I was horrified by the events of last week. However the lack of comprehension by our U.S allies of the rest of the world defies belief. To go bomb the hell out of the Taliban will only chop the head off the hydra, breeding more unknown and unseen martyrs willing to arise in five, ten years time when security again becoms lax and Sydney Centrepoint, Canary Wharf, Golden Gate, the Eiffel Tower, Disneyland or a myriad of other targets again become exposed. Why are they not targetting the UAE or Saudi Arabia where the WTC & Pentagon terrorists held passports? Something about keeping the gas guzzler on the road?
Whilst it may be very simplistic, I believe that the there are three major causes to the problem, one, the ignorance (and to some arrogance),of the U.S to the rest of the world; two, the fact that the inbred poverty of much of the third world creates extremists; and three, the way the U.S plays the rest of the world for short term gain,. i.e the funding of the Taliban's forbears to fight the Russians in Afganistan, it's South American policies in the 60s/70s/early 80's, it's ongoing cracking the s@*ts with a tinpot and broke Cuba (gotta get that Miami vote), and it's permitting the support of terrorist organisations such as NORAID (gotta get the Irish Catholic vote). It comes back to bite you on the bum.
We can only hope our government sees the dangers in supporting armed retalliation against a hastily identified enemy and will conduct an intelligent appraisal of the root causes behind the discontent that creates such hatred against an unfamiliar society (like ours), before committing Australia to direct action, which will leave us exposed to these wild card acts of terrorism.
Like the rest of the western world and the aviation community I was horrified by the events of last week. However the lack of comprehension by our U.S allies of the rest of the world defies belief. To go bomb the hell out of the Taliban will only chop the head off the hydra, breeding more unknown and unseen martyrs willing to arise in five, ten years time when security again becoms lax and Sydney Centrepoint, Canary Wharf, Golden Gate, the Eiffel Tower, Disneyland or a myriad of other targets again become exposed. Why are they not targetting the UAE or Saudi Arabia where the WTC & Pentagon terrorists held passports? Something about keeping the gas guzzler on the road?
Whilst it may be very simplistic, I believe that the there are three major causes to the problem, one, the ignorance (and to some arrogance),of the U.S to the rest of the world; two, the fact that the inbred poverty of much of the third world creates extremists; and three, the way the U.S plays the rest of the world for short term gain,. i.e the funding of the Taliban's forbears to fight the Russians in Afganistan, it's South American policies in the 60s/70s/early 80's, it's ongoing cracking the s@*ts with a tinpot and broke Cuba (gotta get that Miami vote), and it's permitting the support of terrorist organisations such as NORAID (gotta get the Irish Catholic vote). It comes back to bite you on the bum.
We can only hope our government sees the dangers in supporting armed retalliation against a hastily identified enemy and will conduct an intelligent appraisal of the root causes behind the discontent that creates such hatred against an unfamiliar society (like ours), before committing Australia to direct action, which will leave us exposed to these wild card acts of terrorism.
Grandpa Aerotart
Thread Starter
Oz,
What I should have pointed out more clearly is that these 'butchers' use past 'injustices' to rally their people around a single cause, for their own maniacal ego.
Hitler had the same sort of 'injustice' to rally the German Nation around in the 30s. It was called the Treaty of Versailles, in which the victorious nations of WW1 TOTALLY destroyed Germany psycologically, took all their dignity. This was followed by the great depression during which the German currency was worthless, 1000s of DM for a loaf of bread etc. Then along comes Adolf Hitler and says 'Look what the Allies did to us in 1918/19 and look what they are doing now....it's all their fault and we must fight to make the Fatherland great again".
It has direct parrallels with what has gone on in the Middle East for a large chunk of the last 60 or 80 years.
Cause and effect??
I don't necessarily think that we can avoid some sort of war over this, we definately can't turn the other cheek However IF the west can learn the lessons of Middle Eastern history, particularly admit their past failings, then there is hope for the future. If they go at it in a half assed manner like Vietnam, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq etc we are in deep doo doo.
Remove the baddies from power, free the ordinary people to follow their religion in peace and with the prospect of free trade and prosperity and our problems are a long way down the road to solved.
Countries that trade in a free market economy don't go to war with each other cause it costs too much. Surely that's one of the driving sentiments behind the EU? Can you comprehend Germany, France and Great Britian going to war again? Up until 1945 they'd been at war on and off for centuries!
Cause and Effect??
Zarg I agree that that was a reason given why they didn't finish the job, The UN once again failing to finish what they started. I wonder exactly how much argument there would have been from other Muslim countries in the region really. Iran had been on the recieving end from Saddam for decades and had lost Millions of it's people. Kuwait and Saudi?, no not a word from them. Syria? What could they do besides bring down a world of hurt on themselves. Palestine? Nope, Hamas really only exist to get rid of Israel. Egypt? cant see they would be bothered, to much to lose. Pakistan? Nope, too far away and their ongoing stoush with India has been keeping them 'poor' since partitian in 1947 or 49(can't remember).Yemen and Oman? too tiny to achieve anything with Saudi Arabia sitting right next door.Afghanistan? Possibly but would we any worse off now?
In short perhaps that was just an excuse from the UN/US for ending it quickly and 'cheaply'. I personnally think that not too many leaders in the ME would lose to much sleep over Saddam being taken out, he hasn't exactly been a friendly neighbour.
Just my opinion!
Chuck.
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
What I should have pointed out more clearly is that these 'butchers' use past 'injustices' to rally their people around a single cause, for their own maniacal ego.
Hitler had the same sort of 'injustice' to rally the German Nation around in the 30s. It was called the Treaty of Versailles, in which the victorious nations of WW1 TOTALLY destroyed Germany psycologically, took all their dignity. This was followed by the great depression during which the German currency was worthless, 1000s of DM for a loaf of bread etc. Then along comes Adolf Hitler and says 'Look what the Allies did to us in 1918/19 and look what they are doing now....it's all their fault and we must fight to make the Fatherland great again".
It has direct parrallels with what has gone on in the Middle East for a large chunk of the last 60 or 80 years.
Cause and effect??
I don't necessarily think that we can avoid some sort of war over this, we definately can't turn the other cheek However IF the west can learn the lessons of Middle Eastern history, particularly admit their past failings, then there is hope for the future. If they go at it in a half assed manner like Vietnam, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq etc we are in deep doo doo.
Remove the baddies from power, free the ordinary people to follow their religion in peace and with the prospect of free trade and prosperity and our problems are a long way down the road to solved.
Countries that trade in a free market economy don't go to war with each other cause it costs too much. Surely that's one of the driving sentiments behind the EU? Can you comprehend Germany, France and Great Britian going to war again? Up until 1945 they'd been at war on and off for centuries!
Cause and Effect??
Zarg I agree that that was a reason given why they didn't finish the job, The UN once again failing to finish what they started. I wonder exactly how much argument there would have been from other Muslim countries in the region really. Iran had been on the recieving end from Saddam for decades and had lost Millions of it's people. Kuwait and Saudi?, no not a word from them. Syria? What could they do besides bring down a world of hurt on themselves. Palestine? Nope, Hamas really only exist to get rid of Israel. Egypt? cant see they would be bothered, to much to lose. Pakistan? Nope, too far away and their ongoing stoush with India has been keeping them 'poor' since partitian in 1947 or 49(can't remember).Yemen and Oman? too tiny to achieve anything with Saudi Arabia sitting right next door.Afghanistan? Possibly but would we any worse off now?
In short perhaps that was just an excuse from the UN/US for ending it quickly and 'cheaply'. I personnally think that not too many leaders in the ME would lose to much sleep over Saddam being taken out, he hasn't exactly been a friendly neighbour.
Just my opinion!
Chuck.
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
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Dear friends,
There is an article in the Gulf News Online which might supplement CC's post. Its from a retired General ( US Army ). I think its worthwhile reading something/views from the USA itself ( and with a military background). I'm not sure this will work but try: http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/op...rticleID=27146
Its title is US reaps what it sowed.
If that fails, try the opinion window on the 1st page of the gulf news itself. Cheers.
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: kurmitola ]
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]
There is an article in the Gulf News Online which might supplement CC's post. Its from a retired General ( US Army ). I think its worthwhile reading something/views from the USA itself ( and with a military background). I'm not sure this will work but try: http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/op...rticleID=27146
Its title is US reaps what it sowed.
If that fails, try the opinion window on the 1st page of the gulf news itself. Cheers.
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: kurmitola ]
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]