Emirates vs. Air Canada

[six7driver]

555...if the answers are so obvious why don't you answer the question then?

No? then you keep writing your drivel... you think if you throw enough sh#t some will surely stick...why should I read something you know nothing of, like the rest of the cr#p you post on this forum...

don't worry you can have the last word with another cr#p post where defend your views by talking about holding mommy's hand? as I'm sure you have alot of experience in that.

great rebutal Pac West..did you sit on that one all day!

[fatbus]

children put the dummies back in

[Cpt. Underpants]

A c%@p airline, with cr@p service, offering cr@p meals, on cr@p planes, staffed by cr@P staff with cr@P attitudes

Agree, agree, agree, agree, agree and agree.

But this discussion isn't about whether or not AC sucks. It does. Big time.

The discussion is about whether EK has the RIGHT to suck it dry. It doesn't. Get used to the idea.

[Yobbo]

BANANAS

Good post. The sad thing is Air Canada represents Canada overseas.

[engfireleft]

Air Canada was, is and always will nothing more than an employment agency for Canadian citizens. Its employees are a direct reflection of this policy. Air Canada's staff are, for the most part, lazy, intolerant, scruffy, rude and aware of the fact that their employer cannot fire them.
Any company which was or is state owned runs into the same problem that Air Canada is facing. The airline needs to let go some of the overburdening staff and enforce work rules that will allow the carrier to become competitive or else they will continue on like a business from a Dickens novel.
I care less whether or not Air Canada continues to stay as it is, whether or not it allows Emirates, Qatar or Biman Bangladesh into its airports. Air Canada is a lousy airline and they would have been out of business many, many years ago were it not for the million and millions of dollars the Canadian government has pumped into supporting it. I assume that the reason the Canadian government continues to pump hundreds of millions of dollars into Air Canada is because it has to be less than it would cost to have 50% of its overpaid, rude, scruffy staff on welfare.

First of all you grossly misunderstand what Air Canada means to the Canadian government and the Canadian people. While 40,000 direct employees is a lot, it pales in comparison to the subsidiary jobs the airline industry in Canada provides most of which rely on Air Canada as the resident national carrier. Having many of those jobs relocated somewhere else along with the revenue stream the airline industry in Canada provides does not serve the Canadian people at all. Claiming cheap airline tickets to Dubai on a spiffy new A380 as the only benefit to Canadians is ignoring reality.

Air Canada also serves geo-political Canadian interests both within Canada and without that go far beyond the purely economic. Although Air Canada is no longer a crown corporation, it is still very much an implement of government policy unlike Westjet or any other Canadian aviation company. This too serves the Canadian people in ways the average Canadian Joe doesn't understand much less anybody from the sandbox.

If anyone thinks the UAE government doesn't value Emirates Airlines for exactly the same reasons they are sadly mistaken. Witness their juvenile and diplomatically unsophisticated actions to protect their prodigal airline over a relatively few landing slots in Canada. Despite its many faults, you can be sure the Canadian government would not, and does not react in such a petty and unbecoming manner when Air Canada is denied increased access somewhere.

Lastly your characterization of Air Canada employees as lazy, intolerant, scruffy, rude and smugly resting in a job they cannot be fired from says more about you than it does them. There is much wrong with Air Canada that I could fill a book about, but the employees I have had the pleasure of working with have for the most part been as professional and pleasant as anywhere else. In many cases more so.

[Willie Everlearn]

For those of you who (regretfully) insist on comparing Air Canada with Emirates I'd like to point one thing out which ALL of you don't seem to appreciate.

This is a completely idiotic and unreasonable comparison.

Air Canada couldn't hold a candle to EK, top to bottom side to side.

It's like compariing Sir John A Macdonald High School's hockey team with the Montreal Canadiens. Yes, they're both hockey teams but NOT nearly in the same league. So, not much of an argument, eh?

Air Canada is NOT losing millions and having been an Air Canada basher since the late 60s, I can tell you there's nothing more fun than bashing Air Canada. Air Canada today, is not IMHO, the Air Canada of old. They have a way to go, but they are headed in the right direction. Comparing EK to AC is no mental challenge and certainly not much of a debating issue.
This entire issue is about additional services for EK to Canada.
They need flying hours for those undelivered A380s with preferably, revenue generation or they (and Airbus) are fuct.

For those of you who like to insult and use childish sarcasm, maybe you could find something else to do. Like develop some intellectual skills in debating? I bet you're lots of fun to listen to on a flight deck over 14 hours.

EK does not need more service to Canada. Nor do they need expanded service to Canada. Our Government has realized that and so informed the UAE and EK. End of discussion.

Qatar is a different airline wishing to introduce services to Canada, which they do not at present have, so it makes perfect sense to grant them 'some' access, which Canada has done. Despite the fact some thing EK should provide that uplift.

The real reason for this debate is that Emirates is on a path to world dominance of the airline industry. While admirable, many states in this world recognize this ambition and a good number have finally started to put the brakes on it.

And that's wrong?

I for one, don't think EK should have whatever it likes, no matter how deep its pockets are.

Good for Canada.

six7driver...
why do you think Canada requires Visas from the countries you've listed?
Rhetorical. Never mind.

Willie

[555orange]

No Yobo...Banana is way off and not even factual. Just another rant.


It is false to say that Air Canada is stuck with inflexible union labor forces. Over the years thousands have been laid off or furloughed for periods of time to be flexible with the industry, just like all the mature fully grown legacy carrieres. (Emirates is still in its growth phase(although looks like that might slow down now...).

Unions bad? Not perfect..but wow.. you guys sure complain over there. Im sure if you could have one you would.

Handouts? When was the last time Air Canada was given free money it didn't have to pay back? Are you talking Loans? So...Emirates doesnt have loans then?

6-7... yawn. I thought you were originally arguing about the bogus 400 million "for Canada"... so now its here with Qatar plus more choice for the consumer and your still complaining? Your busted.

[Craic Ore]

Wow, this is just dragging on and on.

Guys, I can see both sides of the arguement. I'm with EK and would love more access to home. But I think the way the UAE govt handled this is childish and silly. Same goes for the Canadian govt. I do however have one question that seems to have remained unanswered.

Why is it that MANY MANY carriers have access to Canada and there seems to be a massive block put in for EK? I mean, does Turkish for example have many restrictions? Does AC fly to Istanbul or Ankara? And now Turkish is flying in daily to Toronto? Please explain how that can be? And no one is lobbying against them, are they? Hmmmmmm, please tell me it's not because they are Star Alliance, right?

Listen, we all know what a big piece of the puzzle is. It's protection of AC and apparent protection of jobs in Canada. Hey, I'm ALL for jobs in Canada, but it's very obvious AC will never change without being forced to change. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

One more thing. Why such a fear over EK? It could be limited to daily YYZ, YYC, YVR. And how much revenue would that impact at AC? 0.5%? 0.3%? If EK is that big of a threat for such a small market share, there's bigger things to worry about than us. Wouldn't you agree? Just trying to be logical here.

CO

[fatbus]

Its got all to do with the Star Alliance ( LH ) and the Sub Continent. Turkey has a pop of @70 mil and the UAE @8 which would probably mean s more Turkish than UAE in Canada.

[auh_to_auh]

craic ore,

The answer to your question is simple. The pinheads in Ottawa and AC don't perceive Turkish Airlines as a credible threat (even though they should).

All the arguments from the govt and AC are flawed. Australia have in the region of 10-15 flights a day from the UAE, 90% transit pax, Yet Qantas has been profitable for all but one of the last 10-15 years (don't have correct figures here so I stand to be corrected). AC needs to up there game like Qantas did when competition emerged from the UAE.

AUH

[a330pilotcanada]

This was posted in the Flight Deck Forums above (four pages and growing), maybe some our friends over in the "sand box" can comment on thier rostering which looks like a real safety issue.

Emirates Fatigue. FAA / CAA / CASA etc, are you reading this?

MODS: Please don't move this.

FATIGUE is a very real and serious problem being faced by Pilots & Cabin Crew at Emirates. Without representation and with fear of punitive action, crews are pawns in the hands of a management structure who see FTLs as targets, not LIMITS.

The CRS bidding system with all it's safeguards is a JOKE. In order to FORCE the system to run with insufficient numbers of crew, alterations have been made and safety boundaries have been rendered inoperative. Callous roster builders are required to aggressively make manual pre-publication roster insertions in order to keep the schedule running.

FTL annexes extending duty periods are not used as intended, but are creatively adapted to multi-sector through-the-night flights in order to avoid layovers and cut costs. These are a daily norm on a number of flights. Day/night and West/East duty combos are blended without thought or consideration of fatigue and augmenting hours are "factored" in order to reduce 28 day and 365 day running totals. The words "flight" and "pairing" are interchanged when convenient to avoid necessary time off after long/ultra-long haul operations.

Weekly, ASR after ASR is filed without any noticeable management action. The paper trail is long, but as long as profits are good and there are 2 butts in the forward-most seats keeping the plane is in the air, no problem exists. Apparently.

BEWARE: There are a bunch of EK zombies flying heavy machinery into an airport near YOU!

Please follow link below or search Middle East forum/fatigue:

EK Cabin Crew reporting for duty even thou unfit to fly

[nolimitholdem]

The fatigue issues are absolutely real. Over a year ago, in "response" to the global economic issues we are all sick of by now, the company arbitrarily changed the threshold above which they paid overtime. The previous threshold was 78 hours/month. With a single memo, it became 92 hours/month. (With small variances for shorter months). Immediately, all rosters jumped from around 80 hours of flying/month, to over 90. One of the guys I spoke to recently had flown 113 hours for the month -with another flight to go. The company HATES to pay overtime. Yet they are so short he was called out to operate the flight even at overtime rates.

This, in an operation that has routes that can span 12 timezones - in both directions.

But the A330 guys have it worse. They have to try and accumulate their 92 hours in short turnaround flights. Many of them are flights that depart in the middle of the night, operate to the sub-continent, and then return mid-day. Very, very exhausting. A typical roster might have one flight arriving at 7am in the morning. And then the next flight LEAVES at 8am the following morning!

So the pilot is expected to try and sleep during the day, then, the same day, wake up, and then return to sleep to try and be rested for his 5:45am pickup the following day. It just isn't possible. Have kids and a family? You are SCREWED.

Week after week the ASR (Air Safety Report) summary is released to the employees. Every week, several reports filed. Week after week after week. Pilots micro-sleeping, not alert, missing calls and functions. The GCAA (the regulatory body) says they're helpless without receiving reporting on issues. Where do these reports go after they're filed with the company? No one knows.

At each recurrent groundschool there is a meeting with management brass where they supposedly listen to concerns. Over and over fatigue comes up. They admitted they have a real problem, and we were told last summer that it wouldn't improve for awhile, but the fall should see some improvement. That lie has since been extended into 2011. There is a huge pool of unclaimed leave due to everyone being unable to take their contractual leave.

The doctors at the clinic know all about it and are mightily concerned. One doctor described the pilots from the A330/40 and B777 fleets that she sees, as "zombies". (A380 rosters at the moment are quite pleasant. Wait till they get more a/c and start the BOM etc flights.)

If a pilot reports "fatigued", he is required to report to the clinic for what is called a "fatigue analysis" process. It used to be possible to have the doctor deem that yes, you are exhausted, take some time off, with the amount of time at the doctor's discretion. Generally a week would be given for severe cases. So what has the company done? Changed their policy (communicated to the doctors, not the pilots) so that the doctors are now permitted only to grant a maximum of two days off due to fatigue. If you require more than that, you have to return to the clinic to see the doctor again, at which point I guess they're expected to make up some ailment if you need more time off. This seems clearly designed to at least reduce the REPORTING of how much time off is being given due to fatigue. Hide, camouflage, deflect, deceive. It's the company culture here.

I myself am basically in a semi-permanent state of exhaustion. Not "tired" in the usual sense, just in a half-charged state of constant fatigue. I don't think in terms of "local time" or day or night or whatever. I can't sleep for more than 4-5 hours at a time, regardless of whether it is light or dark in whatever city I happen to be. I live a completely reactive life to fatigue now, taking a nap when I need one, and being eyes-open in the middle of the night. The body doesn't know if it's coming or going anymore, and it never "catches up". I'm never in one timezone long enough for it to do so.

Flights are operated the same way. Try and get just enough rest before a flight or during ("controlled rest on the flight deck") so that hopefully, you can be just alert enough to perform the descent, approach and landing successfully. Survival.

It's just plain greed. The company is massively profitable. They are acutely short of pilots. They realized when they moved the goalposts on monthly flying, that they could make massive amounts of money from it. They acknowledge there is a problem. Yet they don't take their foot off the expansion gas pedal, they just keep pressing harder.

I have absolute certainty that it will end in a smoking hole somewhere. It's simply a numbers game. The colleagues I speak to all say the same, the attitude is simply one of defensiveness: "Im going to try and do everything I can to make sure it isn't on MY watch". But no one seriously thinks that it can go on like this without the inevitable.

Yet is doesn't change. The FAA, CAA, Transport Canada....no one does anything. I guess they will when their accident investigators are in their vehicles heading to the scene. Hopefully that will be after I've sucked the gear into the wells for the last time out of DXB.

[Oblaaspop]

Banana, whilst I agree that his friend was unlikely to have received a roster with 113 hours at issue, unfortunately there is no denying the rest of Nolimits post........ I hate to say it, but it was spot on.

[Married a Canadian]

Yet is doesn't change. The FAA, CAA, Transport Canada....no one does anything

I am in no position to argue the points in no limits post...it seems to be an issue with EK..and discussed a lot on these forums.

However the comment made above is more telling to me in this debate. WHY aren't those bodies you mention above doing anything IF it is considered to be such an issue. All the pro Canada guys on here praising the govt and the like and critisizing EKs practices with crew fatigue....and yet Transport Canada do have a say on whether or not they can fly into Canadian airspace. I posted a black list recently of aircraft that are not allowed to fly...Emirates is NOT on it. Either the problem is not as bad as feared or Transport Canada and the rest of the governing bodies that let EK fly into their airspace are taking kickbacks and bribes or whatever else to allow aircraft that are flying with known safety hazards.

You can't on one hand go praising Canada for its stance on EK then say that Transport Canada isn't doing anything to stop EK flying with the "evidence" against it.

Could it be that the problem is not considered to be that serious? Overworked crews are not rare in the airline industry. I am not disagreeing with anything that No limit posted but it could be applied to more airlines than EK...it is just more convenient to do so in the context of this debate.

[engfireleft]

Transport Canada would be inviting even more attention to their own disgraceful F&DT regulations if they denied any company access on that basis alone. Fatigue is a word that doesn't have much meaning to them despite the occasional lip service.

Banana, brave words about growing a set and declining flights at EK if you are tired. If you work there and do so regularly I suspect you wouldn't work there much longer, and focusing the blame on individuals deflects it from where it belongs on the systemic problem. Face it, Dubai is what it is today thanks to well documented but conveniently ignored slave labour. EK has no qualms about moving the goal posts back at their discretion to make the system work. They are chronically short of crews now, and have orders in to double their fleet. I agree with nolimit, they are a crater in the making.

[fatbus]

Until they put one in the ground,for everyones sake when that happens lets hope it s not in the region( unable to hide the facts )

[Married a Canadian]

Fatigue is a word that doesn't have much meaning to them despite the occasional lip service.

Which means that using the argument in the context of this debate as a reason for denying EK extra flights is fairly pointless as it could be levelled at numerous domestic flights in the US.
If you believe Transport Canada et al are lapse..then they are lapse against everyone...not just Emirates.

Until they put one in the ground

Not good business practice when running an airline really. If people really want to knock EKs growth..then all you need to do is highlight a safety record to the public.....nothing better than nervous punters flying with other carriers if they think the airframe and aircrew are better.

[J.O.]

While I agree that the fatigue issue should be separate from the slots dispute, just exactly how do you propose that TC would come down on EK for crew fatigue? Unless they could prove that there are violations of the UAE's crew rest regulations that are occurring while they are operating in Canadian airspace, TC is powerless to enforce anything of the kind, just as the UAE CAA would be powerless to enforce similar on foreign crews operating in their airspace.

[nolimitholdem]

Banana,

You sound like quite the tosser. Ranting about BMW's or whatever, sorry you missed the point completely. As you seem to have some knowledge of the EK circus, being able to reference the Marina and such, surely you know that this isn't some isolated case of roster-whoring. Many B777 captains getting issued rosters pushing into 3 figures. It isn't hard to break 100 hours with even one extra flight.

The point is, why is the money-obsessed company calling out guys already in overtime? It isn't because they want to. It's because they're desperate in a situation created by their own greed and mismanagement.

It sounds to me like you're projecting your own bitterness about money onto the situation.

[Willie Everlearn]

This thread may be headed for the rhubarb.
Air Canada versus Emirates...right?
Okay, let's not get into accident/incident comparisons.
That might not go so well for our friends in EK.
Rules and Regulations in the UAE are like stop signs in Quebec. Optional.
My read of this thread over these last two days sounds more like EK personnel dumping on EK personnel. Yes? No?

Canada doesn't need more services from EK and our Gov't delivered that response weeks ago. No matter how good or how bad Air Canada may or may not be and no matter whether or not they are the best airline in North America or not.

Willie