Air Canada RP vs 340 / 767 FO pay
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Not to thread hijack, but listen: Professional Pilots! I was talking to a professor about flying and this was her opinion and I thought about it:
"Pilot are the most unrecognized group of people. How could they get such a payrate? They take off with this machine 40 000 ft. in the sky possibly having 400 people lives in their hands". Regardless if you guys like it or not, you're all in the same boat fighting the same fight. One gets on a better machine with a better payrate and still doesnt get the amount that he should be getting. The guy below him envy him and in return he puts the guy below him down? Still the same fight! Just want to get a point across, you guys continue... do what you wanna do... (Immediately after this gets posted, someone is gonna give me hell... go ahead)
"Pilot are the most unrecognized group of people. How could they get such a payrate? They take off with this machine 40 000 ft. in the sky possibly having 400 people lives in their hands". Regardless if you guys like it or not, you're all in the same boat fighting the same fight. One gets on a better machine with a better payrate and still doesnt get the amount that he should be getting. The guy below him envy him and in return he puts the guy below him down? Still the same fight! Just want to get a point across, you guys continue... do what you wanna do... (Immediately after this gets posted, someone is gonna give me hell... go ahead)
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777300.
Another dick who doesn't know squat about what he's talking about. No I didn't get hired at AC from a navajo. You are one of those idiots who have a huge problem with reality, especially when it comes to AC. Talk about stereotype, have a look at what you call yourselfe. A little bit into yourelfe I'd say. Come down from that monkey tree and face it, you ****** up in Canada and now you're happy to be singing Allah is great!!!
Another dick who doesn't know squat about what he's talking about. No I didn't get hired at AC from a navajo. You are one of those idiots who have a huge problem with reality, especially when it comes to AC. Talk about stereotype, have a look at what you call yourselfe. A little bit into yourelfe I'd say. Come down from that monkey tree and face it, you ****** up in Canada and now you're happy to be singing Allah is great!!!
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777300.
Another dick who doesn't know squat about what he's talking about. No I didn't get hired at AC from a navajo. You are one of those idiots who have a huge problem with reality, especially when it comes to AC. Talk about stereotype, have a look at what you call yourselfe. A little bit into yourelfe I'd say. Come down from that monkey tree and face it, you ****** up in Canada and now you're happy to be singing Allah is great!!!
Another dick who doesn't know squat about what he's talking about. No I didn't get hired at AC from a navajo. You are one of those idiots who have a huge problem with reality, especially when it comes to AC. Talk about stereotype, have a look at what you call yourselfe. A little bit into yourelfe I'd say. Come down from that monkey tree and face it, you ****** up in Canada and now you're happy to be singing Allah is great!!!
The tone of your posts just confirms my theory. You'll notice that I did not once say that your decision to join AC was a bad move. In fact I said quite the opposite. Furthermore I have not once said that staying in Canada is wrong. You two kids on the other hand have been quick to point out that I must be some twisted Canadian washout because of the fact that I left Canada. This is the exact behavior that makes you an embarrassment to your colleagues that actually "get it". Then you wonder why people might think you came off a PA31. You didn't listen to a damn word I said did you? Who are really the insecure ones here?
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Thanks Readytocopy
You red my mind readytocopy.....Bruce my son, with your ''level'' of experience acquire from AC you should know better when to draw the line...Don't start getting Allah involve in this thread because you're walking on thin f**** ice 
.
One of the main experience in working overseas is to open your mind and horizon on many aspect of life, flying included. It seems from reading some of the comments that it's not for everyone to be able to do the exercise ! I am sure AC is as good as someone wants it to be...It's all up to the individual, so is overseas flying. I will admite it's not always easy but at the end of the day, we only live once so why not discover other civilizations nations, country, animals etc. Anyway for those of you who applied, best of luck and remember if you're accepted....Don't change after 6 months and stay yourself ...And if doesn't work, well tough luck, there's a world out there to discover so think outside the box and find what's best for you and your familly......
P.S. To reply to Geardoors :You are correct those are the minimums advertise but I was refering to the point system ....iF you have a degree it gives that many points, military flying ...points and so on..Anyway that's how it was for a while maybe it changed....Anyway good luck to you and fly safe ...Sincerely D.V
.One of the main experience in working overseas is to open your mind and horizon on many aspect of life, flying included. It seems from reading some of the comments that it's not for everyone to be able to do the exercise ! I am sure AC is as good as someone wants it to be...It's all up to the individual, so is overseas flying. I will admite it's not always easy but at the end of the day, we only live once so why not discover other civilizations nations, country, animals etc. Anyway for those of you who applied, best of luck and remember if you're accepted....Don't change after 6 months and stay yourself ...And if doesn't work, well tough luck, there's a world out there to discover so think outside the box and find what's best for you and your familly......
P.S. To reply to Geardoors :You are correct those are the minimums advertise but I was refering to the point system ....iF you have a degree it gives that many points, military flying ...points and so on..Anyway that's how it was for a while maybe it changed....Anyway good luck to you and fly safe ...Sincerely D.V
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Brucelee: (Flyer4hire)
I've read this thread from the beginning, and your original rant on pilots working for carriers that aren't Canadian is uncalled for.The only one I hear justifying his career choice is you. Why so threatened? Some guy left AC after 25 years, big deal. So that struck a nerve...pathetic. Good for him. I'm sure he had legitimate reasons to say AC conditions have deteriorated.
I'll tell you what I'm sick of: guys like you (hopefully a real minority in your peer group) justifying how great it is to be you. As in, whatever you're doing is the way to go. Thats the impression you leave.
And I stand by my original point: your hiring is screwed up. Argue that point till you're blue in the face...I don't care. Before they started laying off, it was better. The only two guys I know of that were hired with Jet time out of my experience group have brown skin.
I still think AC is a great company. The maple leaf is on the tail, great equipment, great route structure, proud history...Its the flag carrier, so you know the government will always bail it out or co-sign. I say awesome. Does this mimick your narrow-minded view?
Your attacks on on Tripler make you look like an ass, and embarass your peers. Your attacks on my views maybe justified, but you're still a punk who can't recognize a point or make one.
The funny thing is, most of the guys who leave Canada for other opportunities KNOW what its like to be you...But you haven't the faintest clue what it means to live their life for even a day. If it wasn't for Air Canada requiring it, your passport would probably expire.
And there is 747 Captains BASED in Vancouver who don't work for AC, so how can you paint everyone with the same brush? Some guys who work for other airlines have never left Canada, jackass.
Thanks to Tripler and Dominus Vobiscum keeping this discussion somewhat bearable.
Peace Out
I've read this thread from the beginning, and your original rant on pilots working for carriers that aren't Canadian is uncalled for.The only one I hear justifying his career choice is you. Why so threatened? Some guy left AC after 25 years, big deal. So that struck a nerve...pathetic. Good for him. I'm sure he had legitimate reasons to say AC conditions have deteriorated.
I'll tell you what I'm sick of: guys like you (hopefully a real minority in your peer group) justifying how great it is to be you. As in, whatever you're doing is the way to go. Thats the impression you leave.
And I stand by my original point: your hiring is screwed up. Argue that point till you're blue in the face...I don't care. Before they started laying off, it was better. The only two guys I know of that were hired with Jet time out of my experience group have brown skin.
I still think AC is a great company. The maple leaf is on the tail, great equipment, great route structure, proud history...Its the flag carrier, so you know the government will always bail it out or co-sign. I say awesome. Does this mimick your narrow-minded view?
Your attacks on on Tripler make you look like an ass, and embarass your peers. Your attacks on my views maybe justified, but you're still a punk who can't recognize a point or make one.
The funny thing is, most of the guys who leave Canada for other opportunities KNOW what its like to be you...But you haven't the faintest clue what it means to live their life for even a day. If it wasn't for Air Canada requiring it, your passport would probably expire.
And there is 747 Captains BASED in Vancouver who don't work for AC, so how can you paint everyone with the same brush? Some guys who work for other airlines have never left Canada, jackass.
Thanks to Tripler and Dominus Vobiscum keeping this discussion somewhat bearable.
Peace Out
Last edited by NO_JOY; 28th Oct 2006 at 12:41.
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I am with No Joy on this one all the way. You will also find if you dig into Bruce's posts, he is hyper aggressive towards his fellow AC employees. This in itself is one of the key reasons people leave Canada. According to mates in AC, the infighting between pilot groups is the single biggest threat to their terms and conditions. In fact they admit that management is riding the hostility all the way to the bank, further dividing the employees. Results?
1) A HR system that lacks any sensibility, especially for a company of its size.
2) A starting salary that is amongst the lowest of legacy carriers worldwide.
3) A work force that is losing its fight with management.
Now before anyone jumps down my throat, just look at the facts and try and understand why SOME people choose to leave. AC is still a very good gig but should be compared to the big US outfits, not the highly profitable carriers in Europe, Asia and the Middle East.
I love Canada and do enjoy going home, but I do not miss the BS that goes along with the industry. This thread only proves the point.
At the end of the day we all have it pretty good so lets all be friends.
1) A HR system that lacks any sensibility, especially for a company of its size.
2) A starting salary that is amongst the lowest of legacy carriers worldwide.
3) A work force that is losing its fight with management.
Now before anyone jumps down my throat, just look at the facts and try and understand why SOME people choose to leave. AC is still a very good gig but should be compared to the big US outfits, not the highly profitable carriers in Europe, Asia and the Middle East.
I love Canada and do enjoy going home, but I do not miss the BS that goes along with the industry. This thread only proves the point.
At the end of the day we all have it pretty good so lets all be friends.
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...this is truely why pilots are their own worst enemy and why aviation in Canada is on the decline...."my job is better than your job...blah blah blah"
When someone gets a good job, or a pilot group gets a pay increase, we should ALL be happy because this is how we raise the bar for the rest of us.
There are too many people who celebrate when airline XYZ goes bankrupt, or when so-and-so has to leave canada for a better job, or when Joe-blow gets laid off...
don't you get it...when negative things happen to pilots in Canada it negatively affects all of us...we need to work together as a community to make things better...doesn't matter if we work for competing companies, we are all part of the same "professional" group and we need to start acting like it....
Rant over...
When someone gets a good job, or a pilot group gets a pay increase, we should ALL be happy because this is how we raise the bar for the rest of us.
There are too many people who celebrate when airline XYZ goes bankrupt, or when so-and-so has to leave canada for a better job, or when Joe-blow gets laid off...
don't you get it...when negative things happen to pilots in Canada it negatively affects all of us...we need to work together as a community to make things better...doesn't matter if we work for competing companies, we are all part of the same "professional" group and we need to start acting like it....
Rant over...
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NO JOY: read my posts carefully, then enlighten me as to where i come off saying that i am a super natural human being because i work for AC! The hiring may be flawed, as i'm sure it is in your parts of the globe, nobody's perfect, but your posts and those of Tripler attack and undermine the capabilities of the ones who fortunately / unfortunately remained in Canada. I am not defensive, no reason to be. No-one, except myself, can screw things up for me at AC, hence i have no fear of losing anything. I was just like others trying to make it to the majors. Luck or whatever you want to call it, i am blessed to have my dream job, otherwise i would of looked elsewhere, as you have. I don't chastisize some who have made the move. Everyone deserves to make it. However, just take a deep breath and objectively look at your posts and those of Tripler. It sounds like you are trying to justify your move. There should be no reason to. You do what is required to make it, albeit Canada or elsewhere. The name slinging carried in your posts, and your references to "train to standard" - "don't need passports" - "brown skin" -
"Do you guys even do PPC's anymore?" - "Do you even need an ATPL to fly that thing? Does a CPL suffice?" - "Who's in the left seat in a Boston snowstorm" - "You guys hired a pilatus copilot from winnipeg" are uncalled for.
If these statements aren't defensive, then i don't know what is. I never make any mention as to what anybody was / is before taking on their dream job. It doesn't matter. I thought i was clear in my point about AB-INTIO pilots, even there you missed the point. Your rebuttal simply implies that YOU could handle the AB-INITIO over there, but yet you go on to undermine the "Pilatus Co-pilot" from YWG by saying he was hired before yourself. I can't justify what happens in the hiring process. Many of my personal friends, great pilots, great social people, have been PFO'd by AC. They have wonderful careers as we speak. That doesn't make them any less of a pilot. I hope to have cleared up any misconceptions, and for the sake of sanity, put this thread back on track. If not, well, don't expect any more rebuttals on this topic from me. Cheers.
"Do you guys even do PPC's anymore?" - "Do you even need an ATPL to fly that thing? Does a CPL suffice?" - "Who's in the left seat in a Boston snowstorm" - "You guys hired a pilatus copilot from winnipeg" are uncalled for.
If these statements aren't defensive, then i don't know what is. I never make any mention as to what anybody was / is before taking on their dream job. It doesn't matter. I thought i was clear in my point about AB-INTIO pilots, even there you missed the point. Your rebuttal simply implies that YOU could handle the AB-INITIO over there, but yet you go on to undermine the "Pilatus Co-pilot" from YWG by saying he was hired before yourself. I can't justify what happens in the hiring process. Many of my personal friends, great pilots, great social people, have been PFO'd by AC. They have wonderful careers as we speak. That doesn't make them any less of a pilot. I hope to have cleared up any misconceptions, and for the sake of sanity, put this thread back on track. If not, well, don't expect any more rebuttals on this topic from me. Cheers.
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Ha...Good rebuttal!
You got me, I'm not PC. But you don't have to be PC to get your point accross.
I still don't want a job there
I still think its a great airline
I still think the hiring sucks
I still stand by my friends who were PFO'd
I still think Brucelee is a punk.
You're starting make sense though. Good post.
You got me, I'm not PC. But you don't have to be PC to get your point accross.
I still don't want a job there
I still think its a great airline
I still think the hiring sucks
I still stand by my friends who were PFO'd
I still think Brucelee is a punk.
You're starting make sense though. Good post.
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Fly4hire.
Hey man, you forgot their Navajo insult. Seriously though, I can't believe some of the nonsense I've read on this forum. Most of it a result of ignorance about the real life at the companies we all work for. Dominus my man, I have lived overseas, my culture is not confined to being a canuk. We all have our reasons for being where we are but I'm not about to take stupidity lying down. I'll direct it right back at you and that's why some of my writing sounds harsh. Most of the stuff written about AC is usually inaccurate and unfortunately sometimes just simply confontational. The blurb by Can8vr proves to me how some are out in left field, clueless. Sure let's compare AC to the US companies who are losing money or in bankruptcy. I do agree that AC has a long way to go before being a world class airline, perhaps never will be. But the point which started me going is the one I'm still making in the end which is it's fine to go where ever you want to go or have to go to make a living.Just spare us the ego on how good you have it and how bad we have it at home. AC's hiring practices are far from perfect. I agree we are not always hiring the right people and sometimes even hiring the wrong ones. I've seen this myselfe. But that is only a small part of the picture. I may be making less money, maybe flying crappier equipment but don't underestimate the quality of life we enjoy in the great white north. Then again I'm not telling you something you don't already know. Good riddens!!
Hey man, you forgot their Navajo insult. Seriously though, I can't believe some of the nonsense I've read on this forum. Most of it a result of ignorance about the real life at the companies we all work for. Dominus my man, I have lived overseas, my culture is not confined to being a canuk. We all have our reasons for being where we are but I'm not about to take stupidity lying down. I'll direct it right back at you and that's why some of my writing sounds harsh. Most of the stuff written about AC is usually inaccurate and unfortunately sometimes just simply confontational. The blurb by Can8vr proves to me how some are out in left field, clueless. Sure let's compare AC to the US companies who are losing money or in bankruptcy. I do agree that AC has a long way to go before being a world class airline, perhaps never will be. But the point which started me going is the one I'm still making in the end which is it's fine to go where ever you want to go or have to go to make a living.Just spare us the ego on how good you have it and how bad we have it at home. AC's hiring practices are far from perfect. I agree we are not always hiring the right people and sometimes even hiring the wrong ones. I've seen this myselfe. But that is only a small part of the picture. I may be making less money, maybe flying crappier equipment but don't underestimate the quality of life we enjoy in the great white north. Then again I'm not telling you something you don't already know. Good riddens!!
Last edited by brucelee; 28th Oct 2006 at 15:13.
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Biggest load of back peddling bollocks I have ever heard.
We are talking facts here Brucey and much of it comes from people at AC. People that have been there from a year to 35 plus.
You are the one who got peoples backs up with your aggressive remarks and attitude. Stop making others who work at AC look as dumb as you act and speak.
We are talking facts here Brucey and much of it comes from people at AC. People that have been there from a year to 35 plus.
You are the one who got peoples backs up with your aggressive remarks and attitude. Stop making others who work at AC look as dumb as you act and speak.
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Facts? What facts? It's all been opinion and criticism. Backpeddling? Have a look at my threads, I've said the same things all along. You're pathetic Can8. The thread started out innocently with a good question. Next thing you know we're into a "I'm happier here than at AC" oppurtunity, aka AC bashing and all I said was good for you and please note things are good here as well. This thread was hijacked as always, by some unwarranted AC bashing and some ego-inflated me-better-than-you comments which leads to some of us loyal employees having to defend our employer. You seem to have a problem with that. You want to tell the world how good you have it in Europe's most expensive place to live? Great! Why don't you open a thread on the topic? Perhaps it's BA who should watch who they hire.
Last edited by brucelee; 28th Oct 2006 at 21:31.
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I may be making less money, maybe flying crappier equipment but don't underestimate the quality of life we enjoy in the great white north. Then again I'm not telling you something you don't already know.
What do you know about my quality of life? I have lived in your lifestyle for many years. Have you lived mine?
Tripler
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Hey I didn't start the lifestyle comparison. I only responded to it. You guys don't seem to understand that I don't care about your great lifestyle and I would appreciate it if the on-going comparison could be scrapped or toned down. I think I made this point a few times already but it's not getting through. I have lived overseas, it's great. Many advantages to it. Myselfe and thousands of others are doing pretty good here at home too. AC and WJ as well as others are hiring right now. It's a great oppurtunity for young pilots here at home and for those who want to come home. And best of all our egos don't get overinflated.
Hey I didn't start the lifestyle comparison. I only responded to it. You guys don't seem to understand that I don't care about your great lifestyle and I would appreciate it if the on-going comparison could be scrapped or toned down. I think I made this point a few times already but it's not getting through. I have lived overseas, it's great. Many advantages to it. Myselfe and thousands of others are doing pretty good here at home too. AC and WJ as well as others are hiring right now. It's a great oppurtunity for young pilots here at home and for those who want to come home. And best of all our egos don't get overinflated.
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Bruce the facts are as follows.
1) The current AC hiring process is disorganized, unpredictable and generally a mess. Ask anyone who has passed or failed.
2) The starting salary at AC is very poor for a legacy carrier. Ask anyone living on it.
3) The infighting between pilot groups is as bitter as ever. Ask anyone who flys at AC and is forced to listen to it.
4) The company is using the conditons mentioned in fact 3 above to shaft the pilot work force. Ask those affected by fact 2 above if they agree.
I bring this up because you jump on anyone who even suggests leaving Canada, or god forbid AC to go abroad. Life aborad has its problems as you suggest and I agree, but I will take the little problems and deal with it. If you have the balls to go abroad in the first place, you can handle the rest.
As for the cost of living abroad well life is life. The pay goes with it. I don't know many starting FO's in Canada that can buy a house that is worth seven digits. You obviously base your facts on assumptions.
I am not going to get in to a pissing match with you or anyone else about this crap because it really is pointless. I felt the same way when I listened to the snickers in the crew room etc as I packed my bags a few years back. You remind me of them.
Do yourself and your fellow AC pilots a favour and spend the energy you use shooting other people down, defending the fort as the company pulls the rug from under your feet. Unity my friend, it goes a long way. Hug a Canadian guy tomorrow and you will feel the weight of the world lift off your shoulders.
1) The current AC hiring process is disorganized, unpredictable and generally a mess. Ask anyone who has passed or failed.
2) The starting salary at AC is very poor for a legacy carrier. Ask anyone living on it.
3) The infighting between pilot groups is as bitter as ever. Ask anyone who flys at AC and is forced to listen to it.
4) The company is using the conditons mentioned in fact 3 above to shaft the pilot work force. Ask those affected by fact 2 above if they agree.
I bring this up because you jump on anyone who even suggests leaving Canada, or god forbid AC to go abroad. Life aborad has its problems as you suggest and I agree, but I will take the little problems and deal with it. If you have the balls to go abroad in the first place, you can handle the rest.
As for the cost of living abroad well life is life. The pay goes with it. I don't know many starting FO's in Canada that can buy a house that is worth seven digits. You obviously base your facts on assumptions.
I am not going to get in to a pissing match with you or anyone else about this crap because it really is pointless. I felt the same way when I listened to the snickers in the crew room etc as I packed my bags a few years back. You remind me of them.
Do yourself and your fellow AC pilots a favour and spend the energy you use shooting other people down, defending the fort as the company pulls the rug from under your feet. Unity my friend, it goes a long way. Hug a Canadian guy tomorrow and you will feel the weight of the world lift off your shoulders.
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So anyways...can someone explain what ACE wants to do with Air Canada. The words "spin off Air Canada", I read somewhere. What exactly does that mean. What are the pilots trying to avoid and why? What are the pro's and con's...etc etc
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Hey NO JOY,
I just finished the Air Canada FOM (initial) course. My experience is:
21 years Air Force
7000 hrs
University Degree
There were others with equal experience on my course.
I just finished the Air Canada FOM (initial) course. My experience is:
21 years Air Force
7000 hrs
University Degree
There were others with equal experience on my course.