Wow it really sucks up here!

[cplpilot]

Well said, i tink Dockjock is a very sweet and romantic fella, wich probably have a lot of success with high school girls.
Unfortunately for us, living outside neverland, we have to pay a mortgage, car insurance, kid's diapers, etc doesn't work like that.
I am over 30 and i choose to live for fly and not fly to live. Bell Canada, Enbrige gas, the Hydro company, the dentist, do not accept my CPL as an excuse for don't pay the bills.
You see, until you don't take seriously the fact that you suppose to be a PROFESSIONAL PILOT and paid to act like one (see air Canada) instead giving your ass for free to comapanies around Canada, you will be a gloryfied AMATEUR pilot.

[CanAV8R]

Dockgirl. That was a pathetic reply after your idiotic response to Speedbird. Seriously some of your posts make zero sense. If you are going to go on a rant at least have the smarts to back it up.

How are the stand ups to YXC these days? Good fun from what my old mates in YYC tell me.........not.

[smo]

I have to agree that Canadian aviation is turning in to a dead end career. As I am writing this it exactly 12 years since I came to Canada with big dreams and a sparkle in my eye. I have managed to remain positive and goal oriented until I lost my job this winter. I have moved my family 6 times (soon 7) in 6 years! Only 2 of those moves were our own idea the rest were foced because of restructuring and or facing layoff's. I've been flying for 12 years and I have yet to brake $60,000CDN in a year, although I got close in 2001. Since then however It's been going downhill. My wages has steadily declined and my gross earnings for 2004 was less than 40k!
I love Canada and I love the people, but that is it for me! I have got a job in Asia where my starting salary is much higher than anything I have ever been paid here.
Thanks to a gazillion flyingschools feeding naive kids lies and giving false hope there are simply to many dogs fighting for the same bone around here! It is off course good for the large general aviation sector. Operators can get pilots at a dime a dozen and pilots take these underpaid slavery like jobs because it is "only a stepping stone" on the rocky road glamorous airline pilot life...right?
I hope for everyone here aspiring and or planning on sticking around that things get better..I really do! I am fortunate to be in a postion where packing up and moving the family half way around the world is not a huge deal, but not everyone are in this position.

[cplpilot]

God luck SMO!!!! i hope all will work out for you!
...and if you ever need a first officer....

[Glorified Donkey]

Wow, I can understand moving that much when you're single but it is especially hard when you have a family, good luck! Hopefully this is the big break you've worked for.

[Dockjock]

Grass is greener everywhere else- got it.

For me, I'm staying here dead grass and dirty ground and all. I'll never make Cathay money, or be a widebody Captain by 30. But I'm not the one that got into this career with "big dreams and a sparkle in my eyes" either. Sorry if you all are disappointed in how its worked out for you thus far. It hasn't been easy for anybody this last 5 yrs, myself included (3 layoffs).

But hey if you base your career expectations on Catch Me If You Can then I think you'd better look in the mirror as to who's in neverland. And don't go blaming the flight schools- what a sad cop out. Does the world owe you a job as a pilot, just because you went and got a license? Did you research the industry AT ALL before embarking on the training? Is it the "industry's" responsibility to make sure everyone that trains can become a jet pilot? Who is the bogeyman here? Other pilots?!

Happiness comes when reality meets expectations. If your expectations of Canada were to enter a cadet programme, fly a jet at 20 yrs old, and make $80K to start then I can see why you're not happy. That doesn't exist here and its your own fault for not knowing that in the first place.

CanAV8R- Standups are fine, thanks. Not my favorite shift in the world, but what are you, too good to fly a turboprop? Too good to fly at night? Please elaborate, because as far as I know a large portion of the job of pilot consists of flying people to and from different destinations, sometimes even at night!

[smo]

Dockjock:

I had no illusions coming into this industry. My father is a retired pilot and he was busy trying to talk me out of getting into aviation for a good 15 years, so I have no excuses whatsoever.
When I mentioned the flyingschools, it's because I spent plenty of time at my flying school standing around the coffee machine, between/before/ after flying lessons listening to these guys go on about this looming pilot shortage the school was promising them. Don't get me wrong, we do need flyinschools and pilots. All I am saying is that many poor souls really have no idea what they are getting themselves into until it is to late. Who haven't heard this line at some point, " if I knew I had to endure all this BS to get into a cockpit I would have done something else!"

I towed gliders, did aerial photography, flew floats and ski's, hauled cargo and fuel and have flown for a couple of smaller scheduled airlines as well as one major carrier. Would I change anything if sent back in time? Absolutely not! I would have missed out on meeting and befriending, or simply crossing paths with all the fantastic aviators, friends and folks from various walks of life that I have met if i changed anything. I would not have met my wonderful wife or had the 2 beautiful children I have today if I changed anything.
Whats my point you say? Well, my point is that I am not copmplaining about the career or path I took, sure It wouldn't bother me any if I did not have to move that regularly but it is the price you pay. It's simply a decent wage for me at this point. To be able to plan your financial future. But hey! I might be posting how much my life sucks on here in a few months. There are no gurantees in this business. One thing I have learned though is that you must be willing to take chanses and make sacrifices to make headway in this industry.... and I am sure as hell ready to take at least one more chance if not more

BTW! One thing to be said for Canada is the many forms of aviation offered due to size, geography and climate. Not many if any other country offers the exposure to extremes that Canada does. Take tempereature as an example. We as Canadian aviators have alot to be proud of. We just need to figure out how to get paid what we deserve.

My 2 cents!

[CanAV8R]

Dockjock,

I went a little over the top there and will now apologise. I get sick and tired of people trying to tell me that leaving Canada is a mistake and all things at home 'Will get better'. Look at the latest headlines on CBC and see that some AC guys are talking unofficial job action. A year ago they were hanging on by a thread and now this. Come on boys, there are enough toys in the sand box for all of us! Maybe we can even get a bigger sand box, more toys and some more kids to play!

I am not too good for turbos as I have 3000 hours of time in em and have done scheds, medevac and night freight for years. Been on a big Boeing for just under a year. No layoffs as of yet but that was due to working for a solid employer in Canada and then chosing to come here. Luck as well!

I worked hard to get a JAA licence and then took my experience to get a job here. People like yourself I will add would have there pick of gigs here. Again just making a point. Good luck in Canada and if you ever get sick of all the BS look across the pond. You may be pleasantly surprised. You can always go home and if you work over here, early retirement is a must!!

[Otterman]

I am sitting here as a 41 year old Canadian living in Europe (I have for the last 18 years). I am part of one of the main export products that our country produces; pilots. Back in the middle to late 1980’s there was very little prospect of a decent career with a Canadian airline. PWA had just taken over CP air. Wardair was absorbed shortly afterwards, and we were starting to see guys from those airlines being laid off and making a reappearance in the North. Not much has changed in the last 20 years.

I was fortunate enough to be able to transition from a twin otter up north into a major airline in Europe back in 1987. I started as a relief pilot on the Boeing 747-200/300 and at 25 upgraded to the right seat. After me at least 80 other Canadians made the switch to this airline in the ensuing seven years. This is just one European major. We are spread out in the Far East, the Middle East, and even in Africa I am bumping into fellow Canadians.

A lot of my fellow Mount Royal College graduates (from my year) are out of the business (7 out of 18), or sought refuge in the Canadian Armed Forces (3, of which one is non-flying), some are still stuck in the regionals (3). One I know off has been an FO on a Dash 8 for 16 years now. This leaves only me and another graduate at this European major. And three of the guys made it into Air Canada (2 through Canadian). All but one are FO’s on narrow bodies, and the other one is an FO on the A330. And this is considered to be a normal year for graduates.

I consider this very sad; where at the very least 13 out of the 18 are no longer active or underemployed. And you can arguably state that the guys at Air Canada are also experiencing very slow career progression.

Compare this to the ab-initio program that my European airline has, where more than 90% of the graduates make it into the mainline operation. The others go regional, or charter. And indeed these kids start the program at 18-19 years old, and make it into the relief pilot seat (wide-body) or FO Boeing 737 at around 21 years old with 250 hours total time. One remark though that should be made is that their debt load is more than 160,000 Canadian by the end of their training. But when you join this airline at 21 and you have a normal career it is a debt that is quite manageable (it is usually paid off over a period of ten years).

In Canada we let anyone train and this creates the supply and demand problem that we have had every year since anyone can remember. This works out great for the operators up north and the less scrupulous operators down south, there is always a steady supply of young blood willing to work for peanuts, or worse pay for the privilege to fly for them. So the situation will continue for the foreseeable future. All that is left to do is for anyone seriously considering our business as a viable career to take a very careful look at the risk/reward of joining us. I know I have not had a typical career (made it to the left seat of the 767’s at 38 years old), so I won’t preach on how great it all is, like all things in life you need a good bit of luck, in the meantime enjoy what you do along the way. There is always a price to pay, I no longer live in Canda.

Greetings, O.

[cplpilot]

Dockjock,
i did not mean to offend you before and i apologize if i did. What i am trying to say is that you have the luck to be born in an amazing country, multicultural, full of opportunity for people all over the world that cannot do anything but fall in love for the cities, the nice peoples and the wonderful north.
The country is so vast and the population dansity so low, that aviation is the backbone of transportation, supply of goods and sometimes medical care.
It seems than for me very unfair that a CN driver or a TTC bus driver make 3 times more money than a pilot with little investment in licence, endorsment, medicals, ratings, etc. somehow it seem to me unfair, also because i belive that a fair pay and a fair teatment brings to a better and safer aviation. How? well i have a bunch of friend weitering until late in the night and fly during the day, continuosly worrying about paying bills. As we all know stress is a big factor for aviation safety.
I also belive that conpany that underpay pilots to stay afloat and hire pilot to work in the ramp grabbing them by the balls brings to unsafe enviroment, where people keep thei mouth shut when see something wrong . Good companies now has to compete with bad ones and that make their expansion more difficult, and this means less "goos job" for everybody.
I come from a wonderful country, i can go back anytime but i fell in love for Canada and i wonder why so many people come here to find opportunity but canadian pilots have to look for opportunity somewhere else, often in 3rd world contry!!!!!
You can travel everywhere in Europe with a train or a bus, still pilot are treated fairly, Canadian pilots are too important and too good to be treated like amateurs.

[STC]

SpeedbirdEh,

First of all, its STC, not STS. On your next medical perhaps you can get them to concentrate on your eyesight a little more.

Second, you sure make a lot of assumptions on my part. I made no comment on the state of the airlines in Canada in this thread (as yet). In my opinion Air Canada (or "Canadia" as you choose to spell it with signs of contempt) is a failure whose emergence from bankruptcy virtually unscathed is (to use your term) disgusting. And the rest of the operators are second class at best from a global perspective.

You say that my comments about 18 year old airline pilots are not backed by any statistical means. No sh*t Sherlock. That’s because there isn't enough data. That’s like saying that there is no overwhelming statistical evidence that poking your eye with a pin hurts. Not enough people are stupid enough to do it. The lack of 18 year olds in the right or left seat of heavy iron isn't accidental.

There is a lack of statistical data regarding commercial single engine IFR operations too. But you won’t see me board a PC-12 or a Cessna 208 on a commercial flight. Call it irrational if you like. We all have our own personal comfort threshold and paying for a ticket to launch into the arctic in the winter at night with less than 2 engines, crosses my comfort threshold. You don’t even need to add the 18 year old.

You speak about how AMEs enter an apprenticeship program and how this is comparable to a first officer in an airliner. Do you really think this is a valid comparison? I would certainly hope that a first officer has undergone a great deal more training than an AME apprentice. A copilot is an active part of the flight crew and is expected to be able to operate the aircraft under normal conditions, and should certainly be able to operate the aircraft if the captain becomes incapacitated.

I wouldn't trust an apprentice to perform and certify maintenance on an aircraft without oversight and certainly NOT large transport aircraft. An apprentice AME, even one that works in an airline, is not, in any way shape or form, similar to a copilot in a large transport aircraft. When an AME apprentice screws up, the checks and balances that are mandated to exist catch the problem before the aircraft is returned to service. We need only to look to the Air Canada RJ accident in Halifax to see that this doesn't work for "apprentice" flight crew.

You have also, in my opinion, shifted the blame for the dismal Canadian aviation industry, at least from a pilot perspective, from the real problem: Canadian commercial pilots are whores. What exactly is the incentive for airlines in Canada to commit to any sort of creative training solutions when pilots, for the most part, are a dime a dozen? Hell, some of them will even pay for their training!

The exception of course is Air Canada, but their pilot’s union is so mired in stupidity, that they have become ineffective and more of a liability to the company than an asset.

And…that’s the end of my rant. Before you respond, please make sure you read the whole thread carefully, lest you put words in my mouth again SpeedbirdEh.

[smo]

STC:
Generalizing all Canadian commercial pilots as whores just goes to show how incredably shallowminded you are! I'd love to hear you utter that statament surrounded by a crowd of pilots. Yes we are underpaid but still make more than the majrity of pilots around. I belive that the starting pay at most places here is way to lowbut compare the average regional payscale to any regional in the States your jaw would drop. Start pay at most U.S. regionals are in the $20,000USD range. I think the point here isn't just the pay level though. You could fly a PC12 for Bearskin and make 60K when they operated them, and their Metro III Captains can make 70-80K. there are many operators in the general aviation sector that do pay fairly but my issue like I mentioned earlier is where can I go at this stage in my career and make enough money to live comfortably and save some for a rainy day? Sure, if i got on a Canadian carrier and they survive I'll be making ok cash in 10 years from now. The problem is I really cannot afford to make peanuts for another 5 years and that is why I decided to look abroad. And with the surplus of pilots we have here, my 7500 hundred hours of flying is not worth alot unfortunately!

Won't fly on a C208 or a PC12? I bet you have no issues with driving on a 4 lane highway at a 120km/hr though, which is hundreds of times more dangerous. Or do you simply not trust your own handywork or the level of maintenence found in Canada?

[Glorified Donkey]

Comeon guys, you don't need to be name calling. This was a post about my displeasure with the aviation industry because I see every other country moving ahead and with one of the largest producers of pilots we seem to be going nowhere very quickly. Its good to see some pilots have decided to pursue their dreams and make a good living for themselves outside of Canada. Please try to refrain yourselves from flaming on every post. Lets act alittle professional. You get treated how you act.

[brucelee]

Canada's aviation landscape is quite diverse. We enjoy the luxury of (still) affordable flt training compared to other nations and a mix of cargo and small charter operations. At the airline level there is only one unionized major (AC) and a host of other low cost/no frills whatever, charter and sched airlines. We produce alot of pilots. Most discover early on that flying does not pay the instant you get that first job. It takes years to earn that high paying widebody $200k plus/yr job. Most never get there. That's why many reluctantly look to other nations. Other nations don't have the quantity of pilots we do and have to hire outsiders like Canadians and pay them better than what they do at home to attract them there. We are also fortunate enough to be able to "get by" on lower salaries and those who won't leave or can't leave can afford to stay. I don't see what the fuss is about when it comes to staying or leaving Canada. Everyone is free to choose and it shouldn't be a reflection on this country but rather one's personal ambition. Sure we can always make more money. But like I've said many times, this country has cought the low cost virus and it ain't going away soon. That is something we have accepted like it or not.

[STC]

Generalizing all Canadian commercial pilots....

This thread is FULL of generalizations. Why pick on mine?

I'd love to hear you utter that statament surrounded by a crowd of pilots.

Jetsgo pilots perhaps? Between "tricks" I assume.

Yes we are underpaid but still make more than the majrity of pilots around.

So which is it? Are Canadian pilots underpaid or not? Seems to be alot of contradiction in this thread on that point including some statements you make in the same reply. You looked for employement abroad because you couldn't afford to hang around Canada, but Canadian pilots make more than the majority...does that make sense?

And with the surplus of pilots we have here, my 7500 hundred hours of flying is not worth alot unfortunately!

According to some, you don't need any experience to land an F/O job in a 747. You just need to be over 18...

I bet you have no issues with driving on a 4 lane highway at a 120km/hr though, which is hundreds of times more dangerous. Or do you simply not trust your own handywork or the level of maintenence found in Canada?

The level of experience is a huge factor in driving a car or an airplane. I have never been involved in a car accident and I consider my experience and skill a huge factor.

I also consider the risk involved. Drivers between 16 and 20 years of age account for about 20% of accidents but represent only about 10% of drivers. I was lucky to be able to make it through my younger (more dangerous) years. So yes...I wouldn’t feel comfortable as a passenger in a car on a difficult high speed roadway with an inexperienced driver. Would you?

With respect to commercial single engine IFR ops, I just think it was a bad idea from the start and many passengers don’t have the means to determine the risk themselves. I do, and I refuse to get on them as a paying passenger. You don’t have to agree. Jump on!

Handywork and level of maintenance? Its got nothing to do with this discussion. As I mentioned before its not even a valid comparison in my opinion. Yer talkin’ apples and oranges.

[Glorified Donkey]

At the same time, if you were right now offered a 747 job you'd jump on it!

[smo]

Gloryfied Donkey,
I don't know if your last post was directed at me but if it was you are dead wrong. I would not automatically take a 747 position.

STC,
You can make more than the majority and still be underpaid. But when you throw in the cost of living factor we're not doing so good anymore. Cost of living, i.e. real estate has gone up alot the last few years but pay has either remained the same or gone down. If you look at what local pilots get paid in Africa, South America and many contries in Asia Canadian pilots are certainly better off.
I "generally" respect everyone's opininons and standpoints but I get pissed off when someone has the ignorance to call every commercial pilot in Canada a whore for accepting the jobs that they do! You will never or have never heard me say or read a statement from me putting down thousands with one derogatory remark. That is not to suggest i am innocent of everything either. You happen to have chosen a market where the employees have had the upper hand due to a shortage of qualified people. I still stand by my statement that to many pilots and not enough jobs is a major factor in the paylevel being what is in this Country. It's the old "if the first guy don't take it there is allways someone in line that will".
Besides, what does jetsgone have to do with this? You painted every single commerial pilot with the same brush.
Actually with Jetsgone out of the picture all the other airlines in Canada have increased their fares dramatically but i did not hear of any pilots benefiting from it.

[Dockjock]

I'll admit that starting off here in aviation is much harder than it is in other countries. Harder, meaning harder work, less pay, and less respect. But what I do not believe is that your chances of getting a jet job are any different than they are in any other region in the world. Europe, or Asia, or the middle eastern carriers are not just handing out jet jobs like candy to anyone walking down the street as it may be tempting to believe when you're unemployed in Canada.

As an example, let's take 100 20-yr old wannabe pilots from each region. In Canada, I'd guess that 70 would go on to obtain the license and begin searching for work. Of them, perhaps 50 would get a job in charter, instructing, or light aircraft aerial work). Of those, 10 years later, perhaps 20 will eventually get a jet job. So a theoretical success rate of 20%, but still with 30% still working as pilots but unable to land a jet job.

Now let's forget Asia and the middle east for now, because both regions generally recruit expats as Captains only, and the few that hire first officers either come with a type rating due to being laid off "back home", or pay their own rating prior to joining.

So for those same 100 20-yr old wannabe pilots in Europe, I'd guess that right off the bat only 30 are able to afford to pay for $100,000 worth of training to even complete the licenses. Fewer still are accepted into a cadet programme (for the very, very few airlines out there still running them). Out of them, say 25 are able to get jobs, with say 20 on jets. Sure 25 out of 30 got jobs, and 20 on jets, but fully 70% had to abandon their dreams totally at the outset because of the high barrier to entry!

Of course this is pure conjecture, but useful as a thought experiment. In Canada, due to the lower cost and standards of obtaining the license, more people are able to complete the training, and more people are able to get jobs. Granted, they are not necessarily sustainable, or good jobs, but that is in large part owing to our very, very large general aviation industry in comparison with other regions. Do we really think a Cessna 180 floatplane pilot living in Beaver Fever, MB is going to be paid 50, 60, or $70,000 a year!? Of course not.

I do believe our jet pilots are paid competitively with other nations, the difference is the road to get there is usually 10+ years longer than it is in other places, hence the earnings, and happiness gap. A 30 or 35 year old ex-wannabe jet pilot in europe has long since moved onto a different career. Here, many more are able to stay connected with the industry and slog along hoping for better one day but continually getting further and further behind "everyone else". This is where the majority of our complaints and dissatisfaction comes from.

One very positive thing about Canada is that due to our very large GA industry, many are able to carve out very nice careers in specialized areas such as arctic, fire suppression, or medevac flying while (quite happily) never pursuing big jet airline flying.

[smo]

Dockjock,

That is an excellent post and you are probanly right. I grew up in Europe, and a very few of those aspiring to become a commercial pilots get to realize their dreams. Canada is unique in having such a large GA sector and I will only be repeating myself if I carry on!

BTW STC!

I want to make it clear that I have had nothing but great expeiences with Canadian engineers or maintenance. It being the AME or the procedures to be followed. I have learned a great deal of what I know from spending countless hours "hanging out" in various maintenance facilities! keep up the good work!

[Speedbird eh!]

STC....


"A wise man is superior to any insults which can be put upon him, and the best reply to unseemly behavior is patience and moderation."

Moliere


Next time you want to reply to a post, don't personally insult me. The best insult is to prove me wrong. I am afraid that will be VERY difficult.

P.S. I am glad you are an AME... the ground is where you belong