BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Ultimately the experience argument is pretty sterile because the role of a pilot is so different to that of a steward/ess.
In the highly technical piloting profession experience is critical and is reflected in the minimum experience levels required for command. These in turn are dictated by insurers who understand that pilots in charge of big bits of metal have to have extensive experience of their trade to operate as safely as possible. More experience is generally regarded as a good thing.
In the highly 'people focussed' cabin crew trade experience may or may not be an issue. Some people are excellent after only a few weeks on the job, and maintain that standard for the rest of their career; others are attracted by the lifestyle and never really become dedicated to their passengers. They will always do the minimum amount of work and, essentially, will never improve with experience. That's human nature.
BA has a large number of long serving cabin crew, and the above is as true of them as anyone. Some are excellent, a lot are mediocre, and some are truly terrible. Experience will have improved some, disillusioned others and had no effect on a few. It is no guide to how good they are at their job.
In the highly technical piloting profession experience is critical and is reflected in the minimum experience levels required for command. These in turn are dictated by insurers who understand that pilots in charge of big bits of metal have to have extensive experience of their trade to operate as safely as possible. More experience is generally regarded as a good thing.
In the highly 'people focussed' cabin crew trade experience may or may not be an issue. Some people are excellent after only a few weeks on the job, and maintain that standard for the rest of their career; others are attracted by the lifestyle and never really become dedicated to their passengers. They will always do the minimum amount of work and, essentially, will never improve with experience. That's human nature.
BA has a large number of long serving cabin crew, and the above is as true of them as anyone. Some are excellent, a lot are mediocre, and some are truly terrible. Experience will have improved some, disillusioned others and had no effect on a few. It is no guide to how good they are at their job.
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And I see that once again, unite wants to sit down and talk with BA. Why should BA bother, as the last time they did, unite changed their minds and reneged on what had been agreed.
Pointless.
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it could be the crew members immediate action to restrain a passenger with an i.o.d in his shoe to save the aircraft.Thankfully situations of life and death rarely happen at the front or the rear of the aircraft.
It's "ied" actually - Improvised Explosive Device"
Are you seriously suggesting that serious decisions are not made at the front of the aircraft?!
Litebulbs
see above as an example of the difference between our roles.
And yes I will have been involved in more medical incidents than the average crew member.
Because there are 11-15 crew per a/c and only 1 captain. So I am 11-15 times more likely to experience each situation than an individual cc member.
We also train in the simulator to deal with emergencies.
I will, for example, have practised at least 10 NITS briefs annually. Whereas most crew do 1 per year .
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The Survey
I think it is a very poor scientific methodology to extrapolate a conclusion from such a poor return to a survey. Particularly on such an emotional subject.
To claim that
and
is laughable.
Surely if you had been bullied or witnessed bullying you would feel strongly enough about it to spend 5 minutes filling in a survey. The real figures are probably much closer to the number of actual respondants. ie
a) been bullied- 49.9% of 1905 = 951 which is only 8.6% of those surveyed
b) witnessed bullying- 42.5% of 1905 = 810 which is only 7.3% of those surveyed
It is also worth noting some of the ways people felt they were bullied i.e. unfair criticism(the unwanted truth perhaps), excessive momitoring (or any monitoring), malicious lies (more unwanted truths), witholding information, blocking promotion (promote everyone, CEO for everybody), overruling decisions(maybe they were bad decisions), removing responsibilities (I thought BASSA didn't want responsibilities, hot towels anyone), unrealistic targets and refusing leave (wouldn't we all want time off when we want it, X-mas off everyone)
The survey apparently covered all BA sites but only 27 replies were returned from sites other than Heathrow ( 1.4% of the 1905 replies). Not very representative!
There are lies, damned lies and statistics.
Regards
I think it is a very poor scientific methodology to extrapolate a conclusion from such a poor return to a survey. Particularly on such an emotional subject.
To claim that
The main findings of the survey show:
• Almost one in every two workers at British Airways has been bullied
• More than 72 per cent of staff had either been bullied or witnessed bullying at work
• Almost one in every two workers at British Airways has been bullied
• More than 72 per cent of staff had either been bullied or witnessed bullying at work
Almost three quarters of people (72.4 per cent) had either been bullied or witnessed bullying at work, and almost one in two of workers (49.9 per cent) had been the subject of bullying themselves.
Surely if you had been bullied or witnessed bullying you would feel strongly enough about it to spend 5 minutes filling in a survey. The real figures are probably much closer to the number of actual respondants. ie
a) been bullied- 49.9% of 1905 = 951 which is only 8.6% of those surveyed
b) witnessed bullying- 42.5% of 1905 = 810 which is only 7.3% of those surveyed
It is also worth noting some of the ways people felt they were bullied i.e. unfair criticism(the unwanted truth perhaps), excessive momitoring (or any monitoring), malicious lies (more unwanted truths), witholding information, blocking promotion (promote everyone, CEO for everybody), overruling decisions(maybe they were bad decisions), removing responsibilities (I thought BASSA didn't want responsibilities, hot towels anyone), unrealistic targets and refusing leave (wouldn't we all want time off when we want it, X-mas off everyone)
The survey apparently covered all BA sites but only 27 replies were returned from sites other than Heathrow ( 1.4% of the 1905 replies). Not very representative!
There are lies, damned lies and statistics.
Regards
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I believe Red Len is at Kempton threatening to have BALPA expelled from the TUC is it's members 'continue to strike break'. Huh? Will he be expelling BASSA for having over 50% of their members strike break too?
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Red Len is at Kempton threatening to have BALPA expelled from the TUC is it's members 'continue to strike break'
Ironically Len McKlusky swept to victory with the same sort of numbers used to complete the BASSA survey. 14% of the total membership but 80% of those that voted. Sad that even the membership can't be bothered with the spin coming out from Unite.
As to booting BALPA out, personally, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it if he did!
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As most VCCs were members of UNITE will Len McKlusky be arranging for the expulsion of his own union from the TUC as well? Or, is this just posturing for the faithful?
While you may not have agreed with what Tony Woodley said it normally had logic and was not just bluster to please a few diehards.
While you may not have agreed with what Tony Woodley said it normally had logic and was not just bluster to please a few diehards.
Question?
When is someone going to put the ramblings from DH here. I have already read them on the BALPA forum, but am a bit surprised that they have not appeared here.
There is absolutely nothing new in his ramblings - same old same old!!
The water has got so mudded since this all began, but I still have not heard a sensible offering from a bassamentlist.
When is someone going to put the ramblings from DH here. I have already read them on the BALPA forum, but am a bit surprised that they have not appeared here.
There is absolutely nothing new in his ramblings - same old same old!!
The water has got so mudded since this all began, but I still have not heard a sensible offering from a bassamentlist.
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So if you are not getting any better at the job that must really mean that you are getting worse as it is pretty hard to remain constantly in a state of limbo.After how many years does someone start becomming worse.(3 years by chance)I wouldnt envy you being treated by a novice three monther,as they would probably spend half an hour running around the a/c trying to find the medical kit.
When you come out of training most of it dosnt make sense ,it is only with time that things begin to click into place.If you have a heart attack(for example) on board the first time you maye be at a loss and rely on those who have dealt with the same situation before,the second time you will be more confident as you have experience.....this goes for any situation,long service means more experience.As long as you are still happy and wanting to do the job long srevice should be regarded as a benefit.
When you come out of training most of it dosnt make sense ,it is only with time that things begin to click into place.If you have a heart attack(for example) on board the first time you maye be at a loss and rely on those who have dealt with the same situation before,the second time you will be more confident as you have experience.....this goes for any situation,long service means more experience.As long as you are still happy and wanting to do the job long srevice should be regarded as a benefit.
Last edited by tomkins; 10th Jan 2011 at 20:40.
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To be really good at something, you probably need:
1. Natural ability
2. Practice (Experience)
but also,
3. Desire to be good.
If you don't have 3, no matter how much 1 and 2 you have, you'll probably pretty average.
As a CSD, I don't think I had a lot of 1., 15 years ago, when I got it. I did however, have a lot of 3., so after a few years of 2. (probably 5-10, if I'm honest) I think/hope I got good at my job. My annual appraisals would suggest I have.
My point is, that some people with a lot of natuaral ability will be a good CSM/CSD/PSR almost straight away, others will need longer, but the one thing that will always prevent exceptional performance is lack of motivation. The old phrase "you never stop learning", with the proviso that "so long as you want to".
Experience is great, because it presents you with a wider range of situations to deal with and to store in the memory banks, so long as you are willing to learn from your mistakes and are not just repeating them time and again.
1. Natural ability
2. Practice (Experience)
but also,
3. Desire to be good.
If you don't have 3, no matter how much 1 and 2 you have, you'll probably pretty average.
As a CSD, I don't think I had a lot of 1., 15 years ago, when I got it. I did however, have a lot of 3., so after a few years of 2. (probably 5-10, if I'm honest) I think/hope I got good at my job. My annual appraisals would suggest I have.
My point is, that some people with a lot of natuaral ability will be a good CSM/CSD/PSR almost straight away, others will need longer, but the one thing that will always prevent exceptional performance is lack of motivation. The old phrase "you never stop learning", with the proviso that "so long as you want to".
Experience is great, because it presents you with a wider range of situations to deal with and to store in the memory banks, so long as you are willing to learn from your mistakes and are not just repeating them time and again.
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Experience
I think BA need a mix of youth and experience. On WW currently, we dont have enough youthful exuberance, and no doubt Mixed Fleet would benefit from some experience. Experienced leaders and keen workers.
Why does it always come back to comparing pilots with Cabin crew? Completely different jobs with completeley different requirements and remuneration packages.
Why does it always come back to comparing pilots with Cabin crew? Completely different jobs with completeley different requirements and remuneration packages.
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If you don't mind me asking but why are you all arguing over semantics. It is a complete waste of time and really boring to read.
On a more relevant note, I have just been in work and a young lad who was near the top of the transfer list has had it confirmed, in an email from Manpower and Planning, that people below him on the list, who had signed the agreement, will be being transferred before him.
Even I, who was against the strike because I felt it was the wrong strike about the wrong issue, feel that this is unfair and cannot understand why signing the agreement would make a difference.
I feel this is discrimination and I don't know but I would have thought the ops and choice agreement would form part of an agreement between Bassa, the bargaining union and the company, so cannot understand how it can be ignored without their agreement.
I am not at all happy with what Bassa has done to BA but I do not think what BA is doing right now is right or fair.
On a more relevant note, I have just been in work and a young lad who was near the top of the transfer list has had it confirmed, in an email from Manpower and Planning, that people below him on the list, who had signed the agreement, will be being transferred before him.
Even I, who was against the strike because I felt it was the wrong strike about the wrong issue, feel that this is unfair and cannot understand why signing the agreement would make a difference.
I feel this is discrimination and I don't know but I would have thought the ops and choice agreement would form part of an agreement between Bassa, the bargaining union and the company, so cannot understand how it can be ignored without their agreement.
I am not at all happy with what Bassa has done to BA but I do not think what BA is doing right now is right or fair.
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I feel this is discrimination and I don't know but I would have thought the ops and choice agreement would form part of an agreement between Bassa, the bargaining union and the company, so cannot understand how it can be ignored without their agreement.
BASSA have elected to be in dispute with the company for such a prolonged period of time, it should come as no great surprise that BA is getting on with the business of looking after those that it can. As there is collective bargaining in place it cannot deal with the BASSA members and those that have not signed the new deal until the dispute is settled. This may appear to be harsh but it is hardly surprising.
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Some might say that BA is flawed in many different ways but a major factor in how cabin crew feel about BA as an employer stems from their misunderstanding of their own role , and rights, within the workplace.
When so many sccm's fundamentally misunderstand their responsibilities, and some other crew have no idea how the chain of command works - or are unwilling to accept that management are allowed their own terms of reference - it's no surprise that Bassa / Unite can get away with their propoganda.
The point is ........ Until crew understand the issues and engage on an intellectual level, without resorting to spin and bluster, they will continue to rush headlong towards the cliff like lemmings.
When so many sccm's fundamentally misunderstand their responsibilities, and some other crew have no idea how the chain of command works - or are unwilling to accept that management are allowed their own terms of reference - it's no surprise that Bassa / Unite can get away with their propoganda.
The point is ........ Until crew understand the issues and engage on an intellectual level, without resorting to spin and bluster, they will continue to rush headlong towards the cliff like lemmings.
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Its pure speculation but I wonder if the reason BA are transferring crew out of sequence is that they wish ensure those who backed BA are where they want to be before a new contract is imposed which slams the door on transfers?