British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)

[gr8tballsoffire]

Eeesdeedee
LOL

[fred737]

Answer to Beagle 9

Beagle 9

I can offer you no Bassa answer. I merely posted, as information, what a friend sent to me.

F7

[holedriller]

Can anyone explain the logic in the timing of the series of strikes to start on Tuesday, why 5 days on followed by one day off, repeatedly. That is, if there is any logic! What is the benefit to the union and members of the intervening one day at work?
Holedriller

[Eddy]

I suspect it could be to ensure people are able to get home within a reasonable period of time and avoid the risk of people being stuck away for 20+ days.

[ottergirl]

so why has no-one suggested copying the sensible parts of their agreements for the better good of the majority of cabin crew?

Actually, they have. Before Carmen (CC SYSTEM) was purchased the CC unions did ask if we could look at Priam (I think thats the right name for the FC system) but were told that it would be too expensive to administer for CC due to the complexity. The pilots apparently accepted 'draft' as a way to offset the cost of the bidding package they use; it is much more complex than Carmen. Our current system does have the potential to be used for WW crew but research suggests that the success rate would be pretty low given the allowance based remuneration. Other airlines use it for trip swapping and leave alllocation as well so it could do more if we let it.

[TheKabaka]

I think flyby was referring to the dreaded hourly rate, which BASSA has poisoned crews mind against. It evens out the amount you earn by locking in a higher basic (I guess by the equivalent of MTP), and means all destinations are equal so you can bid for what you want, not what pays most.

I have never met a crew member who understood the hourly rate, they always say "it would mean £2.70 an hour and I can't live on that".

Another example of dreadful reps. this could be a real advantage to crew and BA but no crew/rep will even examine it as an option.

[Caribbean Boy]

holedriller wrote:

Can anyone explain the logic in the timing of the series of strikes to start on Tuesday, why 5 days on followed by one day off, repeatedly. That is, if there is any logic! What is the benefit to the union and members of the intervening one day at work?

The intervening one days are useless to BA as the operation cannot be switched from partial to full and back to partial so quickly. So, 20 strike days effectively become 23 strike days of partial service, thus ensuring more losses for BA and more misery for passengers.

[giza]

Allowances - Harsh but true

Have I got this right, CC get a basic wage, on top of that you get a myriad of variable pay, amounting to , on average, the monthly payment that is around 6 to 8 thousand pounds a year, and then on top of this you get down route allowances. I know this is all negotiated so I dont have an issue with it, but you can see as more of this becomes common knowlwdge, the less sympathy you will get.

For comparison, what do I get if I travel overseas, arrange and pay for my own hotel and claim it back later, I bring back any reciept I have for legitimate expenses (meals and transport) and get reimbursed. No profit made.

So do you see how other people view some cc, talking of good trips and bad trips, surely overseas allowances started off years ago the same for you, so that you are not out of pocket in carrying out your job. How over the years did it become such a major part of your income.

By the way, a VCC friend of mine who did a 4 day trip on what he assumed was new fleet rate, ie no vairable payments and fixed daily rate, said he was really pleased how much money went into his account at the end of the month. I think you will find there are plenty of people outside the door that would jump at new fleet.

I hope the strike does not happen, but if it does good luck to all of you who work, I will be backing BA and have signed up to support you as I did last time.

[ottergirl]

Another example of dreadful reps. this could be a real advantage to crew and BA but no crew/rep will even examine it as an option.

Not quite true. Amicus/CC89 members voted, on the recommendation of our reps, in favour of it. Our vote didn't count because BASSA voted against. Truthfully, on Eurofleet at the moment, with the Euro rate having been so good, we are far better off than we would have been on the proposed hourly rate. In this instance, it was good to have rejected it.

[TheKabaka]

That's interesting Ottergirl I did not know that. The point remains wrt to BASSA and also how they have misled most crew (not you clearly) about the hourly rate.

[dave3]

what a nonsense to say "Im backing BA" If you work for BA your backing BA what ever your opinion no one employee is beter than the next equality isnt that what we are told!
the public vote has become a life style vote... if the company were happy to pay the crew this amount... the crew were happy to sign the contract then why should they justify their wages to anyone...

[TheKabaka]

BA do not want to reduce salary of current crew by one penny. I know you will say ah but they will in the future. Well how about a strike ballot if your salary does get cut?

Don't strike on something not even a threat yet

[M.Mouse]

Priam (I think thats the right name for the FC system) but were told that it would be too expensive to administer for CC due to the complexity. The pilots apparently accepted 'draft' as a way to offset the cost of the bidding package they use...

Bidline is the name of the FC system It is complicated and costly to administer. Draft was the backstop, when it was introduced, to guarantee that BA would never be in the situation of having NO pilots available for a trip. Bidline was under threat until extensive, wide ranging (and very unpopular with some) changes which were negotiated a couple of years back. It was recognised by BALPA that the world had changed and sensible change had to be agreed or the entire system was under threat, does that sound familiar?

Have I got this right, CC get a basic wage, on top of that you get a myriad of variable pay, amounting to , on average, the monthly payment that is around 6 to 8 thousand pounds a year, and then on top of this you get down route allowances. I know this is all negotiated so I dont have an issue with it, but you can see as more of this becomes common knowlwdge, the less sympathy you will get.

Almost right. The amount you quote is conservative which is why the often heard mantra of how little CC earn (usually just the basic being quoted) is so laughable. Unfortunately, as in so many aspects of this dispute, the average outsider has little real understanding of quite how ludicrous BASSA's defence of the indefensible really is. I have watched and been inconvenienced (along with our passengers) for many, many years as the BASSA tail has very successfully wagged the BA dog while living high of the hog. What we are seeing now should have been dealt with long ago but, in general, BA management are fairly spineless and actually not very good at managing. Unfortunately BASSA have failed to notice that the top man now is someone who says what he means and means what he says. To even the most blinkered observer it is plain that BASSA are going to be finished it is just a matter of a little more time.

Hopefully the airline will be there to thrive once this malignant influence has been excised.

[exeng]

Dave 3

what a nonsense to say "Im backing BA" If you work for BA your backing BA what ever your opinion no one employee is beter than the next equality isnt that what we are told!
the public vote has become a life style vote... if the company were happy to pay the crew this amount... the crew were happy to sign the contract then why should they justify their wages to anyone...
Today 22:40

Pass that one by me again because it didn't make a lot of sense at first reading.

Are you saying - no employee is better than another? Equality means we are all equal?

The crew don't need to justify their salary to anybody - is that correct?

What is this about a public vote being a lifestyle vote? Forgive me but I don't understand.

Your view Dave3 is important when viewed on such a public forum - can you clear these points up please because a lot of jobs are at stake.


Kind regards
Exeng

[wilsr]

>>For comparison, what do I get if I travel overseas, arrange and pay for my own hotel and claim it back later, I bring back any reciept I have for legitimate expenses (meals and transport) and get reimbursed. No profit made.<<

With respect - and I obviously don't know your own job - cabin crew and pilots' allowances are a bit different to most employments' reimbursements.

If one is to spend a whole career basically living away from home when working, it only seems reasonable to me that the employer should not only pay for your hotel etc but also something towards leisure activities.

At home you can enjoy life at very little cost - as well as doing all the myriad things that are necessary such as decorating the house, cutting the grass etc. Being stuck in a hotel room - whatever the standard - would be a waste of a life if you didn't get out of it. And "getting out of it" is pretty expensive when you are away from home.

IMO over the years the allowance system has provided a quick and dirty way of giving crew sufficient "extra" to be able to actually do the things that most people take for granted.

(Nothing to do with the strike issue but since allowances have been brought into the argument....)

[etsd0001]

wilsr

I would counter your post by saying no one forced you to choose a career where you worked away from home, it was a personal choice made of your own free will.

Therefore I would suggest the company's only obligation would be to cover your overseas living expenses and not your overseas entertainment expenses

A Ground Engineer who has worked overseas.

[Matt101]

Devils Advocate. If BA only reimbursed the actual expenses of living oversees then crew would only be "living" on their basic. For new joiners this is circa 10,000 pa dependant on base.

I am afraid that this is not going to attract many new employees to the role. Certainly not good ones. Moreover it would force out a lot of other people.

Basically the money saved would no doubt be lost in the demand for an increase in basic pay which, in this hypothetical case, the Cabin Crew would be more than justified in asking for.

The Allowance system is deeply complicated and probably needs a reform but the money it provides to Cabin Crew isn't really going to be saved as it forms part of a reasonable salary for many. (Not all Cabin Crew are raking it in).

Any savings would probably come from the simplification of the payment process.

[Juan Tugoh]

Please do not forget that BA does gains an advantage from the allowances in that they do not pay any pension contributions on allowances. The allowances monster started in the 70's when the then Labour government imposed pay freezes. Allowance were not included in this, so they were a way to pay staff more without breaking the pay freeze. For the crew receiving the allowance, the pay off for it being non-pensionable was the low, almost zero, tax paid upon this extra money. HMRC has finally recognised this money is mainly income and now taxes more of it.

Sadly this allowances system has since grown into a monster that is expensive to administer, and can cause wild variation in monthly pay. It has become very corrupt with some CC inexpicably getting lots of premium trips while others appear on these trips once in a blue moon.

[cheeky chappy]

wilsr

>>For comparison, what do I get if I travel overseas, arrange and pay for my own hotel and claim it back later, I bring back any reciept I have for legitimate expenses (meals and transport) and get reimbursed. No profit made.<<

With respect - and I obviously don't know your own job - cabin crew and pilots' allowances are a bit different to most employments' reimbursements.

If one is to spend a whole career basically living away from home when working, it only seems reasonable to me that the employer should not only pay for your hotel etc but also something towards leisure activities.

At home you can enjoy life at very little cost - as well as doing all the myriad things that are necessary such as decorating the house, cutting the grass etc. Being stuck in a hotel room - whatever the standard - would be a waste of a life if you didn't get out of it. And "getting out of it" is pretty expensive when you are away from home.

IMO over the years the allowance system has provided a quick and dirty way of giving crew sufficient "extra" to be able to actually do the things that most people take for granted.

I think you have a very twisted view as there are plenty of "Joe public" out there who find it hard to swallow that crew get to fly around the world, stay in luxury hotels, eat for free while on duty, get enormously discounted staff travel when they are off duty and then expect everyone to feel sorry for them when they have have to bear their share of the savings the company has to make if it is to remain solvent.

Sorry for the cliche but most people have to scrimp and save all year to do the things that crew seem to take for granted...

[dave3]

what I am saying is that the quote"im backing BA" includes everyone.. however it seems now to be used as a quote to put down anyone who has a different oppinion. Anyone working for BA is backing BA just because some have a different vision does not mean they are not backing BA. everyone in the company is a number and I feel we are all equal.. everyone has a part to play from the cleaner to the top... however it seems thatsome think they are more important than others... With regard to the public vote on the strike... the public (I feel) are voting about a lifestyle they think the crew have. Nights away from home in exotic destinations.. hotels sun pools... meals ....what they dont see are the missed birthdays. missed weddings.. missed school plays... lonleyness having to be away with 11+ strangers every trip... realy what would make the public happy.... if the crew stayed in tents at the end of the runway???? It is unfortunate that due to time differences and rules crew need to stay away from base... unfortunately sometimes the destination is sunny unfortunately sometimes there is a pool.....This is a job with a life stlye and an agreed contract with the employer... why should these crew justify what they earn or the life style to the public... we are not owned by the government anymore...