British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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I'm afraid the reaction in both places has been total denial. The brainwashed are taking this a sign that Walsh is under pressure from the board and is desperate (of course everything is taken as a sign that Walsh is under pressure and desperate). They have convinced themselves that Walsh is rattled and Unite have the upper hand in negotiations. They have convinced themselves that they will win a strike when it comes. They have convinced themselves that BASSA and CC89s refusal to sit in the same room and negotiate is a lie made up by BA and is only reported in the judges court findings because Unites QC didn't make an effort to refute the allegations. I almost despair when I read what they write. They genuinely have no idea what's coming to them.
BA aren't after cabin crew; they're not even after BASSA cabin crew.
They are after BASSA reps and other troublemakers who are constantly bringing the airline down. The sooner they are rid of them, the better.
They are after BASSA reps and other troublemakers who are constantly bringing the airline down. The sooner they are rid of them, the better.
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Re post #1841 page 93.
I honestly cannot understand why any CC would believe that WW is 'under pressure' or 'desperate' based on what he said yesterday.
WW has made his, and the Boards stance clear. He has stated that they will not back down, that New Fleet will come in for new joiners and that the crew complement will not be reversed.
For those CC who can't work it out: by saying this, WW has painted himself into a corner (intentionally). If he reneges on any of those pledges he will have to leave BA. That is not going to happen!
WW has set out his and BA's stall, BASSA are on borrowed time... they can only prevaricate for a few more days before this will come to a head.
I honestly cannot understand why any CC would believe that WW is 'under pressure' or 'desperate' based on what he said yesterday.
WW has made his, and the Boards stance clear. He has stated that they will not back down, that New Fleet will come in for new joiners and that the crew complement will not be reversed.
For those CC who can't work it out: by saying this, WW has painted himself into a corner (intentionally). If he reneges on any of those pledges he will have to leave BA. That is not going to happen!
WW has set out his and BA's stall, BASSA are on borrowed time... they can only prevaricate for a few more days before this will come to a head.
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By deferring the announcement of strike action, Unite are in danger of frittering away workers' support.
If BASSA don't call a strike soon they will never be able to. There is no way that they can go back to their membership for a third ballot, therefore it is a 'use it or lose it' moment with the weak mandate that they have, that will unquestionably be broken very quickly should they choose to use it.
So that leaves negotiation and salvaging the remnants to save some face, and the only thing really negotiable is New Fleet and the terms of its introduction.
Note: not the introduction itself - that is a foregone conclusion, but the mechanism of the route transfer and the agreements they will operate under (salary, allowances, scheduling and hotel) plus the mechanism of transferring into New Fleet (one way only).
The reality must be sinking in by now, and with it, the realisation that they have done their membership such an enormous disservice of the last 15 months that they must feel like commiting collective hari-kari out of decency, but then again it's LaLa and her cronies we are talking about
Do we think that we will see a 'Toyota-moment' from them with abject apologies and contrition
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Sorry ChicoG but there are many BASSA CC out there who wholeheartedly and fervently believe in LaLa et al and will continue to poison the pool long after she and the kitchen fitter have retired to the West Coast.
Perhaps our PCCC friends could give us an indication of how many are now discreetly seeking an alternative (I say discreetly because IMHO they fear the consequences if BASSA found out)?
Having said that, I did say BASSA reps "and other troublemakers" so I am aware that the problem is not just a few.
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with the weak mandate that they have
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from the front page of the Unite website
is this the new threat by the union to make WW reconsider.
to me, it looks like the union are dragging their feet deliberately, (by not calling the strike and now by saying they will appeal the judgement) to try and force a further imposition, as that is the only way they have left to try and regain the moral high ground.
i think even the top of BASSA must realise they cannot win as things stand, but if they can keep putting things off WW will eventually have to impose further terms to ensure the savings are met, and that will give them the chance to either call a strike on more realistic grounds or wriggle out when the members finally realise that they hold a busted flush and refuse to back a strike.
whatever happens next, you can be assured that the main priority of those at the top of BASSA is to protect as best they can the interests of the members at the top of BASSA.
which is why we are to appeal the recent High Court decision to allow BA to impose widespread changes to crew without consultation."
to me, it looks like the union are dragging their feet deliberately, (by not calling the strike and now by saying they will appeal the judgement) to try and force a further imposition, as that is the only way they have left to try and regain the moral high ground.
i think even the top of BASSA must realise they cannot win as things stand, but if they can keep putting things off WW will eventually have to impose further terms to ensure the savings are met, and that will give them the chance to either call a strike on more realistic grounds or wriggle out when the members finally realise that they hold a busted flush and refuse to back a strike.
whatever happens next, you can be assured that the main priority of those at the top of BASSA is to protect as best they can the interests of the members at the top of BASSA.
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If Unite do appeal, and if they win the appeal, then WW will simply follow the advice of Unite's QC at the original hearing and give 90 days notice of new contracts for ALL cabin crew. Goodness knows what the terms and conditions will be.
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I continue to find it difficult to comprehend how a significant proportion of BA cabin crew can still place trust in their discredited representation.
Clearly there exists a hard core of militancy but where is the sensible
mid membership? What numbers are they? Where is their voice?
The public, the loyal customers, the other BA employee groups,the Courts,
the Management- All have expressed despair at the tactics, machinations
and incompetence of Unite/Bassa.
I see only three scenarios that a cornered union can now use
a. Appeal all Court decisions with even more expenditure.
b. Strike
c. Negotiate successfully
Results likely are Lose/Lose/ Very Improbable so where the hell is the
collective common sense of the majority of cabin crew?
Clearly there exists a hard core of militancy but where is the sensible
mid membership? What numbers are they? Where is their voice?
The public, the loyal customers, the other BA employee groups,the Courts,
the Management- All have expressed despair at the tactics, machinations
and incompetence of Unite/Bassa.
I see only three scenarios that a cornered union can now use
a. Appeal all Court decisions with even more expenditure.
b. Strike
c. Negotiate successfully
Results likely are Lose/Lose/ Very Improbable so where the hell is the
collective common sense of the majority of cabin crew?
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Papillon
On the face of it 80% sounds good, but when combined with a turnout of <80% and when considered that many have no intention of striking, but voteed yes because BASSA told them too/their mates did/they thought WW would back down if they did/etc a low 60's% mandate becomes substantially weaker than that (multiple previous threads refer). Add to that the restated promise of permanent loss of Staff Travel adn the implicaitons that has for commuters and annual vacations etc and I contend that the mandate for strike action is weak (and becoming weaker by the day).
I don't agree for a moment they have a weak mandate. 80% is a strong vote, however it's dressed up.
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I don't agree for a moment they have a weak mandate. 80% is a strong vote, however it's dressed up.
Personally I think the cabin volunteers are a waste of money. The strike was dead in the water even without them. I suppose Willie Walsh would be negligent if he took that gamble though, so he has to have a back up plan. Besides, he now has an army to break a cabin crew strike at any point in the future. Many people feel that striking is the only tool they have against the erosion of their T's and C's. Now even that tool is broken.
I should have said the 'volunteers are a waste of the cabin crews' money', because Walsh will just up the savings targets he needs from them in order to pay for it all. The required savings from New Fleet are growing by the day...
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Tob Bunk/GS-Alpha
I agree with the wider point, but it simply isn't reasonable to dismiss an 80% vote in favour by talking about non-voters or the reasons they voted. That's a European Commission approach to democracy.
However misguided, whatever the motives, an 80% yes vote is a sizeable mandate. Support might well be drifting away, and the union's position is exceptionally weak, but you can't do anything other than accept that such an overwhelming yes vote is indeed a strong mandate.
However misguided, whatever the motives, an 80% yes vote is a sizeable mandate. Support might well be drifting away, and the union's position is exceptionally weak, but you can't do anything other than accept that such an overwhelming yes vote is indeed a strong mandate.
This will take some time......
As has been noted on here before, 80% support for a strike in an 80% turnout is very strong support.
All those on here who think that Bassa "have had it" should reflect on those numbers. Scargill never got support that strong!!
What the numbers would indicate to an experienced ER/HR person - (which the current HRD is not) - is that there is considerable Energy amongst BA CC to "do something". There are a number of issues that could cause them to want to "do something" - from the crew numbers, the imposition, the future of new fleet, the use of hot towels in WT+, rostering arrangements, and so on - the list is endless.
However, an experienced ER person will tell you that the potential strikers' energy levels are not infinite. If they strike over one issue, then whether they win or lose, their willingness to strike over any other issue halves.
Thus, BA managers must take a strike over crew numbers/imposition, as once that is over - and no matter what the outcome - the BA CC will not have the energy to fight over New Fleet.
BA need the current strike to take place more than Unite do - and one or two National Officers in Unite have spotted this - but they are not involved in this dispute...........
All those on here who think that Bassa "have had it" should reflect on those numbers. Scargill never got support that strong!!
What the numbers would indicate to an experienced ER/HR person - (which the current HRD is not) - is that there is considerable Energy amongst BA CC to "do something". There are a number of issues that could cause them to want to "do something" - from the crew numbers, the imposition, the future of new fleet, the use of hot towels in WT+, rostering arrangements, and so on - the list is endless.
However, an experienced ER person will tell you that the potential strikers' energy levels are not infinite. If they strike over one issue, then whether they win or lose, their willingness to strike over any other issue halves.
Thus, BA managers must take a strike over crew numbers/imposition, as once that is over - and no matter what the outcome - the BA CC will not have the energy to fight over New Fleet.
BA need the current strike to take place more than Unite do - and one or two National Officers in Unite have spotted this - but they are not involved in this dispute...........
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Has there been any evidence that all of these 6,000 'volunteers', et al actually exist?
WW would claim such numbers, wouldn't he, in an attempt to de-stabilise industrial action.
Even if he DOES render strike action ineffective, he will make BA a pretty poor career choice in the future - unless the BA employee of the future accepts that they will be shoved into whatever position the company chooses - all because this is how it has got its way in the past.
WW would claim such numbers, wouldn't he, in an attempt to de-stabilise industrial action.
Even if he DOES render strike action ineffective, he will make BA a pretty poor career choice in the future - unless the BA employee of the future accepts that they will be shoved into whatever position the company chooses - all because this is how it has got its way in the past.
Junior trash
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Has there been any evidence that all of these 6,000 'volunteers', et al actually exist?
WW would claim such numbers, wouldn't he, in an attempt to de-stabilise industrial action.
WW would claim such numbers, wouldn't he, in an attempt to de-stabilise industrial action.
That seems to be a consistent thread with the BASSAites. Willy must be lying. Willy legally cant lie. Who has been proved truthful every single time in court so far and who's been lying?
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Originally Posted by flyluke
Has there been any evidence that all of these 6,000 'volunteers', et al actually exist?
WW would claim such numbers, wouldn't he, in an attempt to de-stabilise industrial action.
Even if he DOES render strike action ineffective, he will make BA a pretty poor career choice in the future - unless the BA employee of the future accepts that they will be shoved into whatever position the company chooses - all because this is how it has got its way in the past.
WW would claim such numbers, wouldn't he, in an attempt to de-stabilise industrial action.
Even if he DOES render strike action ineffective, he will make BA a pretty poor career choice in the future - unless the BA employee of the future accepts that they will be shoved into whatever position the company chooses - all because this is how it has got its way in the past.
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80% support for a strike in an 80% turnout is very strong support.
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Career Choice
Even if he DOES render strike action ineffective, he will make BA a pretty poor career choice in the future.
New Fleet will recruit young people, full of energy and enthusiasm, who will fly for a couple of years before moving on to a 'proper' job where they will use their degrees and qualifications and languages and earn a salary which will allow them to take on a mortgage and settle down.
BA is up against Middle Eastern and Far Eastern airlines and the LCCs in Europe who are already hiring people like this. They offer wages and conditions that make the idea of a 'career' as CC only a pipe dream.
BA is going to offer market rates +10% to ensure they get the very best applicants. An attractive job, yes, but a career it ain't. Ask all the CC posters on here who do NOT work for BA.
Last edited by PaddyMiguel; 4th Mar 2010 at 13:35.
