British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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I am stunned as to why you seem to think that just because Virgin pay is utter crap, it's ok for BA to pay the same...
What would you say if Virgin were paying pilots half what BA do, and Walsh decided to do the same?
What would you say if Virgin were paying pilots half what BA do, and Walsh decided to do the same?
Join Date: Feb 2005
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dns
That is not what I'm trying to say. I'm not talking about your basic wage, i'm talking about your departmental cost.
To be competitive, we (as a company) have to lower our cost base to levels similar to our competitors. If we can attract a good level of engineers, groundstaff and flightcrew at market level +10%, then explain to me why as a department BA shouldn't try to take the cabin crew to the same level. I'm not talking about basic wage here, but your entire package, however it is constructed.
I am not at all out to ruin your financial life (my fiancee is crew), but surely you must agree that BASSA has to wake up and smell the coffee - your deparment budget is outrageously high and it has to be decreased dramatically. If BASSA is not willing to discuss any painful, but neccesary concessions then you leave BA no choice but to act.
To be competitive, we (as a company) have to lower our cost base to levels similar to our competitors. If we can attract a good level of engineers, groundstaff and flightcrew at market level +10%, then explain to me why as a department BA shouldn't try to take the cabin crew to the same level. I'm not talking about basic wage here, but your entire package, however it is constructed.
I am not at all out to ruin your financial life (my fiancee is crew), but surely you must agree that BASSA has to wake up and smell the coffee - your deparment budget is outrageously high and it has to be decreased dramatically. If BASSA is not willing to discuss any painful, but neccesary concessions then you leave BA no choice but to act.
Clarified
I think possibly you have misunderstood the term 78'er.
It actually refers to the number of pilots, 78 of them, who all left BA under VR on the same day, 31st August 2009; and not Top Bunk's age.
Best Regards
Bellerophon
...I am going to get down The Rivers (no longer Beeline House), tomorrow and start lobbying to have the start age raised to 78 so we can get you back onboard...
It actually refers to the number of pilots, 78 of them, who all left BA under VR on the same day, 31st August 2009; and not Top Bunk's age.
Best Regards
Bellerophon
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Posted by Midman
I've already volunteered and look forward to being guided by Tiramisu, HiFlyer etc
I've already volunteered and look forward to being guided by Tiramisu, HiFlyer etc
Look forward to flying with you too and everyone else who has volunteered.
BASSA's days are numbered.
Well done Willie Walsh.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above are my personal views and not those of BA.
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I think possibly you have misunderstood the term 78'er.
It actually refers to the number of pilots, 78 of them, who all left BA under VR on the same day, 31st August 2009; and not Top Bunk's age
It actually refers to the number of pilots, 78 of them, who all left BA under VR on the same day, 31st August 2009; and not Top Bunk's age
Sorry, Mods.
Gg
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Other sources of volunteers
Hot off the press
Retired ICC - International Cabin Crew like my wife who retired 2 years ago have volunteered and have been accepted as temporary ICC also more cabin crew being recruited in India.
Nandos Chicken, Manager positions get between 18,000 to 24,000 GBP per year. Should any CC get more than this.
Retired ICC - International Cabin Crew like my wife who retired 2 years ago have volunteered and have been accepted as temporary ICC also more cabin crew being recruited in India.
Nandos Chicken, Manager positions get between 18,000 to 24,000 GBP per year. Should any CC get more than this.
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dnx
Strange that it's BA who are refusing to negotiate with UNITE, yet they're instead spending a huge amount of time and money coming up with insane ways to avoid getting round the table...
What would you say if Virgin were paying pilots half what BA do, and Walsh decided to do the same?
Can you say the same for BA cabin Crew?
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Dns said:
Strange that it's BA who are refusing to negotiate with UNITE, yet they're instead spending a huge amount of time and money coming up with insane ways to avoid getting round the table...
Strange that it's BA who are refusing to negotiate with UNITE, yet they're instead spending a huge amount of time and money coming up with insane ways to avoid getting round the table...
I don't remember BA lying to BASSA about their numbers. I do remember BASSA refusing to watch a simple presentation about the financial facts; I remember them refusing to honour confidentiality agreements which would give them access to the accounts; I do remember BASSA saying that would not negotiate with BA unless the forced imposition was removed (which is no longer possible anyway); I do remember BASSA offering savings they still claim exceeded GBP150 million which were proven to be worth only a third or so of that.
It is BASSA that has steadfastly stuck its head in the sand and hoped that by ignoring BA and the recession, it would make both of them go away. This has been going on almost a year now.
It's time to stop blaming BA; in fact, it's time to stop blaming UNITE. It's time to START BLAMING BASSA FOR THIS MESS.
They are the ones responsible. Right up to your "imposed" tax rise. Didn't see them negotiate that one either.
A Lurker wrote:
Is that no then? I don't want to know your strategy - I asked what would you have done better?
Or as you described it in an earlier, post "Why would BA want to engage with another union?". Answer: "Because it's impossible to engage with the current ones".
As a "punter", I think it's absolutely vital that the PCCC do not put their cards on the table now so that BASSA can scrawl all over them and run off at a tangent accusing them of being management lackeys or some other puerile cliche out of their Longbridge 1956 "How to spot a Blackleg" pamphlet (see below for an interesting link to the current situation ***).
And as BASSA are experts on secrecy and running around doing things (or not doing things, as the case may be) without consulting their members, I can see why the PCCC would be circumspect.
Perhaps if BASSA didn't have such a reputation of being such hate-filled bullies when it comes to any opposing voice, then things would be different.
*** Spot the out-of-touch and hopelessly ineffective trade union official called Tony Woodley link and win an MG Maestro ***
In the end the MG Rover plant at Longbridge closed not with a bang, but a whimper. The factory that in the 1960s and 70s had been a byword for militancy, just lay down and died. Even in 2000, when the previous owners BMW pulled out, there had been angry mass meetings and a huge demonstration through the centre of Birmingham. The few token protests that occurred in April 2005 were pathetic affairs, more like wakes than any sort of serious resistance.
A large part of the blame must be put at the feet of the national union leaders, who had backed the John Towers/Phoenix takeover in 2000 and ever since had been pinning their hopes on a deal with the Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (SAIC). They had no "plan B". In 2000 the TGWU's Tony Woodley (then the union's National Automotive officer), had talked about occupying the plant and demanding nationalisation. It was, of course, only talk: as soon as John Towers and the Phoenix consortium appeared on the scene, Woodley and the other union leaders stopped making militant noises and threw their weight behind the white knights who promised to save Rover.
A large part of the blame must be put at the feet of the national union leaders, who had backed the John Towers/Phoenix takeover in 2000 and ever since had been pinning their hopes on a deal with the Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (SAIC). They had no "plan B". In 2000 the TGWU's Tony Woodley (then the union's National Automotive officer), had talked about occupying the plant and demanding nationalisation. It was, of course, only talk: as soon as John Towers and the Phoenix consortium appeared on the scene, Woodley and the other union leaders stopped making militant noises and threw their weight behind the white knights who promised to save Rover.
Last edited by Desertia; 19th Jan 2010 at 05:46. Reason: Added a comment to A Lurker.
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Hey guys. How are we all doing? It is hot and sunny here in Australia. On my way to BKK tomorrow with good old BA...
It seems that the penny still hasn't dropped on either side. Still arguing over positions instead of interests. In that case: better fight it out. The customer will pay the price (ultimately) but who cares?
The initiative by WW is more clever than you may think. He also demonstrates that the job of FA can be learned in two weeks...
It seems that the penny still hasn't dropped on either side. Still arguing over positions instead of interests. In that case: better fight it out. The customer will pay the price (ultimately) but who cares?
The initiative by WW is more clever than you may think. He also demonstrates that the job of FA can be learned in two weeks...
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As a humble but loyal customer of BA I am tremendously impressed by the fighting spirit now being shown in this forum by all of the BA employees who are willing to volunteer to help save this great company.
The BASSA members must be feeling totally isolated. Maybe the light will slowly dawn on them that they are totally in the WRONG or will they really self destruct? Either way, the winners will be the rest of the loyal BA employees. Well done & good luck to you all.
The BASSA members must be feeling totally isolated. Maybe the light will slowly dawn on them that they are totally in the WRONG or will they really self destruct? Either way, the winners will be the rest of the loyal BA employees. Well done & good luck to you all.
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Just a reminder to the cretins that run BASSA and UNITE:
For BA, the threat of another strike - even if it does not result in a walkout - is disastrous.
City analysts say it is already on course to make a record loss of up to £800million this year.
City analysts say it is already on course to make a record loss of up to £800million this year.
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From the BBC site (bold mine):
The JAL fiasco also started with a pension fund deficit and crew not willing to compromise, if I remember correctly.
Japan Airlines (JAL), Asia's biggest air carrier, is due to file for bankruptcy protection, reports say.
JAL - which has $16.5bn (£10bn) of debts - is expected to make the move after a board meeting later on Tuesday.
JAL shares fell to an all-time low on Monday, valuing the firm at just $150m - roughly the price of a new jumbo jet.
Japan's government says flights will continue as normal as JAL begins restructuring under the supervision of a state-backed turnaround organisation.
A third of JAL's workforce - more than 15,000 people - are expected to lose their jobs, the BBC's Roland Buerk in Tokyo says.
Banks will have to write off unsecured debt and JAL will receive an injection of taxpayers' money, our correspondent adds.
While the turnaround plan backed by the government will see the airline continue to fly, investors in the company are likely to lose most of their money.
Along with other major global airlines, JAL has been hit hard by falling passenger numbers during the global downturn.
JAL - which has $16.5bn (£10bn) of debts - is expected to make the move after a board meeting later on Tuesday.
JAL shares fell to an all-time low on Monday, valuing the firm at just $150m - roughly the price of a new jumbo jet.
Japan's government says flights will continue as normal as JAL begins restructuring under the supervision of a state-backed turnaround organisation.
A third of JAL's workforce - more than 15,000 people - are expected to lose their jobs, the BBC's Roland Buerk in Tokyo says.
Banks will have to write off unsecured debt and JAL will receive an injection of taxpayers' money, our correspondent adds.
While the turnaround plan backed by the government will see the airline continue to fly, investors in the company are likely to lose most of their money.
Along with other major global airlines, JAL has been hit hard by falling passenger numbers during the global downturn.
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I have asked not to wear a pilots uniform. I have insisted that I wear a stewardess uniform. And the heels.
Seriously though, the more we read of this nonsense from Woodley and LaLa about how no-one could possibly do the BASSA militant's job, the more I am reminded of a cognitive bias called Dunning-Kruger, which states:
- Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill.
- Incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others.
- Incompetent individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy.
- If they can be trained to substantially improve their own skill level, these individuals can recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill.
I quite like the idea of the engineers becoming CSDs - I mean didn't we have to suffer pages on just how much time the poor dearies had to spend on fixing the AVOD? (Even if they were exaggerating).
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Originally Posted by MissM
When did BASSA meet with HMRC? I assume that they did meet to discuss this with them. I have not heard anything about this since it was on the table in 2008 when crew had to save their receipts. Something I don't believe is that BASSA claims that they only heard about this the other day.
Here's a quote from the Amicus site to LGW crew from Nov 16th, so HMRC gave Amicus a heads up, but not bassa?
The Inland Revenue has analysed the returns from our tax audit and have indicated to the company they intend to raise the tax level we currently pay from >30% to somewhere in the region of 80%. This will have a significant and devastating impact on YOUR allowances. Whilst this isn't a direct result of a company initiative, they are deliberately withholding the information from you at this time as they rightly know that THIS REVELATION on top of a 2.7% pay freeze, loss of earning opportunities for Pursers on long haul flights, and loss of right to transfer would deal a second CATASTROPHIC blow to us at LGW. AND still, they continue to deceive and demand!
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MissM
Feel free to call it nonsense but it's a PR trick and nothing else. Salary was another example of their little PR tricks.
Another PR disaster for Unite methinks...
Of course if volunteers are trained in a short time frame and used, bang goes the myth about how hard and exclusive the job is.
It's a lose/lose situation for you from my point of view.
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OOPs!
I think possibly you have misunderstood the term 78'er.
It actually refers to the number of pilots, 78 of them, who all left BA under VR on the same day, 31st August 2009; and not Top Bunk's age.
Best Regards
Bellerophon
It actually refers to the number of pilots, 78 of them, who all left BA under VR on the same day, 31st August 2009; and not Top Bunk's age.
Best Regards
Bellerophon
how I laughed! Poor old TopBunk, me thinking he's a senior rating from a completely different era! RTFQ and all that.
What I said still stands.
Promise to try harder next time.