BA and Project Columbus III
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As crew why should I "put up" with that we have been offered?
What we are all concerned about it that when the airline returns to profit, no matter when that is, we are thn left with what we had "put up" with.
What we are all concerned about it that when the airline returns to profit, no matter when that is, we are thn left with what we had "put up" with.
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In response to Channex101, I think that you need to reconsider your position regarding monkeys and peanuts. I can honestly say that some of the 11 monthers have been some of the best crew I have flown with, they are enthusiastic and genuinely happy to be working for us, probably for a lot less than you.
I suspect that you feel threatened by these monkeys (your words), and well you should be. BASSA didn't try to stop this move by BA, a very clever move IMHO.
We all have to batton down the hatches now, we are in a hole deeper than ever before. CC costs are way over any other airline, just look at the CAA figures if you don't believe me.
Get your head out of the sand, you've had a great run but now things have to change and inevitably some will not stick around. You never know, we might actually get a whole load of new crew who are happy to be there and rejuvenate our on-board product....
I suspect that you feel threatened by these monkeys (your words), and well you should be. BASSA didn't try to stop this move by BA, a very clever move IMHO.
We all have to batton down the hatches now, we are in a hole deeper than ever before. CC costs are way over any other airline, just look at the CAA figures if you don't believe me.
Get your head out of the sand, you've had a great run but now things have to change and inevitably some will not stick around. You never know, we might actually get a whole load of new crew who are happy to be there and rejuvenate our on-board product....
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Channex101 I would go careful what you say with regard to Monkeys and Peanuts, The new contract (if it arrives) will be based around(although not entirely on) London Gatwick Cabin crew terms and conditions, ergo it may seem that you are insulting them.
The company finds itself in a sorry state moving forwards. Matt101 is correct the longer term viability of BA is under threat. An aviation analyst comments that if cost remain the same, and income remains broadly neutral over the coming year, then BA has the potential to flounder just like Swiss, Sabena, and Alitalia. The immediate cash position remains good, but should this erode much further then all our suppliers will start to ask for payment upfront, loans obtained for new aircraft based on our cash position will not happen and BA will be unable to refinance these at a competitive rate.
I have said it before, but BA have cried wolf about the state of the business too many times, so why should we believe them now? The management IMHO are not making enough of an effort to convince the staff that this time is real. Perhaps they don't wish to scare away our remaining passengers.
The company finds itself in a sorry state moving forwards. Matt101 is correct the longer term viability of BA is under threat. An aviation analyst comments that if cost remain the same, and income remains broadly neutral over the coming year, then BA has the potential to flounder just like Swiss, Sabena, and Alitalia. The immediate cash position remains good, but should this erode much further then all our suppliers will start to ask for payment upfront, loans obtained for new aircraft based on our cash position will not happen and BA will be unable to refinance these at a competitive rate.
I have said it before, but BA have cried wolf about the state of the business too many times, so why should we believe them now? The management IMHO are not making enough of an effort to convince the staff that this time is real. Perhaps they don't wish to scare away our remaining passengers.
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Da Dog,
Sorry? Have you looked at the figures? Have you looked at the cash flowing out? Have you witnessed the environment we are flying in? Massive loads don't mean anything if the yield is low trying to keep people flying. Simple maths will tell you that if there is more going out than is coming in then the gravy train will grind to a halt eventually.
Add to that you have analysts figures confirming the position, downgrade of shares to 2nd level junk status with no guarantee that they won't drop further. Massive cost savings across the entire company with signs, posters and emails everywhere warning people to cut costs and save money. And still you can't see it? People taking VR, people being forced in some departments into CR, Citiflyer cutting CC and FC jobs, amalgamation of departments for more efficiency, ergo Loading and push back teams.
Look at the position of CC when taken against the steps taken by other departments over the last 5 years. The screaming, tantrum approach by BASSA has worked until now but all that has achieved is to make the drop further and more painful. BA CC are far above the going rate for CC as a poll here on Pprune showed when floods of people replied they would be very happy to work on the new contracts. Also, a full 319 with 17 Club from Gatwick to Bologna was run superbly by 3 crew why do we need 5 from Heathrow? Flight crew are about to make the decisions as to how their financial savings are to be met, and they will be met, but, believe me, those decisions are based purely on our wish to achieve the aim. Also add to the mix that BALPA have had, through careful negotiation, access to the Price Waterhouse Coopers financial analysis of BA's position. Perhaps BASSA should be following their lead as the BACC knows full well the state the company is in. We are certainly not accepting any pay cuts/CR due to CC not being willing to budge as was told to me by a purser the other day!
As I said before it is time to put up or ship out.
I have said it before, but BA have cried wolf about the state of the business too many times, so why should we believe them now? The management IMHO are not making enough of an effort to convince the staff that this time is real.
Add to that you have analysts figures confirming the position, downgrade of shares to 2nd level junk status with no guarantee that they won't drop further. Massive cost savings across the entire company with signs, posters and emails everywhere warning people to cut costs and save money. And still you can't see it? People taking VR, people being forced in some departments into CR, Citiflyer cutting CC and FC jobs, amalgamation of departments for more efficiency, ergo Loading and push back teams.
Look at the position of CC when taken against the steps taken by other departments over the last 5 years. The screaming, tantrum approach by BASSA has worked until now but all that has achieved is to make the drop further and more painful. BA CC are far above the going rate for CC as a poll here on Pprune showed when floods of people replied they would be very happy to work on the new contracts. Also, a full 319 with 17 Club from Gatwick to Bologna was run superbly by 3 crew why do we need 5 from Heathrow? Flight crew are about to make the decisions as to how their financial savings are to be met, and they will be met, but, believe me, those decisions are based purely on our wish to achieve the aim. Also add to the mix that BALPA have had, through careful negotiation, access to the Price Waterhouse Coopers financial analysis of BA's position. Perhaps BASSA should be following their lead as the BACC knows full well the state the company is in. We are certainly not accepting any pay cuts/CR due to CC not being willing to budge as was told to me by a purser the other day!
As I said before it is time to put up or ship out.
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Wobble2plank, I think you are trying to preach to the converted
Perhaps read some of my other posts on this subject(the ones the moderator didn't delete that is) before you fire off a rant
Did you not read and digest this part of my post?
But I still stand by my comment
Even Wille Walsh on ESS admits there are numerous staff members still with their heads in the sand
Perhaps read some of my other posts on this subject(the ones the moderator didn't delete that is) before you fire off a rantDid you not read and digest this part of my post?
The company finds itself in a sorry state moving forwards. Matt101 is correct the longer term viability of BA is under threat. An aviation analyst comments that if cost remain the same, and income remains broadly neutral over the coming year, then BA has the potential to flounder just like Swiss, Sabena, and Alitalia. The immediate cash position remains good, but should this erode much further then all our suppliers will start to ask for payment upfront, loans obtained for new aircraft based on our cash position will not happen and BA will be unable to refinance these at a competitive rate.
I have said it before, but BA have cried wolf about the state of the business too many times, so why should we believe them now? The management IMHO are not making enough of an effort to convince the staff that this time is real. Perhaps they don't wish to scare away our remaining passengers.
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Da Dog,
Sorry, I humbly apologise for 'mis-targetting', I will however let the 'rant' 
stand as a 'generic' for those who still refuse to believe the position the company is in.
Sadly there are still an awful lot of 'Bring the Company down' type people floating around who are of the opinion that if they have to give an inch on their T's & C's they don't see why anybody else should have a job at BA either.
Sorry, I humbly apologise for 'mis-targetting'
, I will however let the 'rant' stand as a 'generic' for those who still refuse to believe the position the company is in.Sadly there are still an awful lot of 'Bring the Company down' type people floating around who are of the opinion that if they have to give an inch on their T's & C's they don't see why anybody else should have a job at BA either.
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as a very jnr memeber of BA, I can assure you, my wage bill is FAAAAARRR from inflated.
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Lets get one thing clear, I never aimed or insinuated any of that about our LGW crew! So lets stop the sh*t stirring there before it even starts ok.
I mearly stated my opinion and thats how I stand, i dont have my head in the sand, (as willie so kindly put it) however i dont think we'd have that problem if the company were as honest and open as they shud be, but thats not for here!
There is no one who wants to see BA fail, and we dont want to being the company down, what is the sense in that????
As for the statement of feeling threatened by 11 month temps, why should i? i never worked with them, and nor would i as im not world wide crew, they had their choice of jobs to apply for, and i had mine. Im also not saying that they are sub standard because they are paid less.
Its easy for those this dosnt concern to sit outside looking in voicing their opinion, however if the shoe was on the other foot it would be very different. We all learn to spend within our means, and if those means are to be slashed we need to consider changes. For me, that means if i was on a wage "similar" to LGW crews, I would find it hard to afford to work, as i dont live in london.
I, as well as many other in the company are prepared to make changes, but the one thing change i refuse to accept is the T&C's of the proposed new fleet. Other than that i am happy to work long, work harder and improve my effiencey as long as my money dosnt suffer. Why should that be a problem if they offer part time to those who want it, and unpaid leave, they have already stated it will save them millions.
Oh, and just to clarify BA Citiflyer are not laying off 25 becuase of a downturn in traffic, its beacuse they have written off an aircraft in LCY and its not worth replacing as a new aircraft type arrives soon.
I mearly stated my opinion and thats how I stand, i dont have my head in the sand, (as willie so kindly put it) however i dont think we'd have that problem if the company were as honest and open as they shud be, but thats not for here!
There is no one who wants to see BA fail, and we dont want to being the company down, what is the sense in that????
As for the statement of feeling threatened by 11 month temps, why should i? i never worked with them, and nor would i as im not world wide crew, they had their choice of jobs to apply for, and i had mine. Im also not saying that they are sub standard because they are paid less.
Its easy for those this dosnt concern to sit outside looking in voicing their opinion, however if the shoe was on the other foot it would be very different. We all learn to spend within our means, and if those means are to be slashed we need to consider changes. For me, that means if i was on a wage "similar" to LGW crews, I would find it hard to afford to work, as i dont live in london.
I, as well as many other in the company are prepared to make changes, but the one thing change i refuse to accept is the T&C's of the proposed new fleet. Other than that i am happy to work long, work harder and improve my effiencey as long as my money dosnt suffer. Why should that be a problem if they offer part time to those who want it, and unpaid leave, they have already stated it will save them millions.
Oh, and just to clarify BA Citiflyer are not laying off 25 becuase of a downturn in traffic, its beacuse they have written off an aircraft in LCY and its not worth replacing as a new aircraft type arrives soon.
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You have many valid points, and I certainly agree that it is quite disasterous on a personal level to find that a compensation to which people have become accustomed (or even mortgaged a house against) might be drastically cut overnight. Then again, years of obstruction on the part of the union have lead to the present circumstances. Nothing is ever black and white.
As a means of trying to shut down an argument - nice try. Fact is, that your settlement very much has an impact on the remainder of the business, the shareholders' returns, and the customers / suppliers of the BA business as a whole. What happens to your worker group does not happen in isolation of the world - one key point that BASSA hardliners fail completely to realise.
Its easy for those this dosnt concern to sit outside looking in voicing their opinion
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Im also not saying that they are sub standard because they are paid less.
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In response to Channex101, I think that you need to reconsider your position regarding monkeys and peanuts. I can honestly say that some of the 11 monthers have been some of the best crew I have flown with, they are enthusiastic and genuinely happy to be working for us, probably for a lot less than you.
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I, as well as many other in the company are prepared to make changes, but the one thing change i refuse to accept is the T&C's of the proposed new fleet. Other than that i am happy to work long, work harder and improve my effiencey as long as my money dosnt suffer. Why should that be a problem if they offer part time to those who want it, and unpaid leave, they have already stated it will save them millions.
How much work is not involved for scheduling to go over UPL on a daily basis and cover everything with SBY?
Think about the costs involved to keep the SEP of all those part-timers updated and still not able to use them 100%.
Overall having people on part-time is probably a lot more expensive than having people on full-time employed as you need less.
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Originally Posted by Channex101
but the crew are the ones who spend most time with our passengers, so they have to bear in mind, if they want premium service they need to pay premium money, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys!
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Carnage, well said. I have lost count of the number of times that inflight rest on short trans-Atlantic sectors (JFK in particular) has started within 90 minutes of wheels up. It is a sad truth within BA that the Number 1 priority is horizontal rest reather than the "superior" service we claim to provide.
Ask any punter who has experienced Singapore, Ethiad, Jet Airways if they think that crew are worth the extra expense.
Ask any punter who has experienced Singapore, Ethiad, Jet Airways if they think that crew are worth the extra expense.
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Part Time working or the ability to do so is now the law of the land but you are probably correct that such staff cost more to employ as perhaps to do those on 11 month contracts.
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Part time?? law of the land? under circumstances yes, such as children.... you ask alot of people who have been on the list for part time for 2 years then? if it was law of the land, wouldnt they have got it by now?
Ive voiced my opionion now, for anyone that was ex 11mnth temp or LGW dont take the words that were put in my mouth, i wasnt aiming the "paying peanuts attracts monkeys" at you guys!! it was taken out of its meaning and used to stir reaction i think
As for the 11 month guys who are so enthusiastic to work, how come on a recent flight back from JFK i heard two of them talking over the aisle of Club about interviews they had upcoming and hoped it was better than BA??
Also, some of them i doubt will come back if they seen how much money they were on with a temp contract, and then how much they could be on at singlefleet!
But each to their own, and that was my opinion which im entitled to have, as well as every other tom dick and harry on here!
Ive voiced my opionion now, for anyone that was ex 11mnth temp or LGW dont take the words that were put in my mouth, i wasnt aiming the "paying peanuts attracts monkeys" at you guys!! it was taken out of its meaning and used to stir reaction i think
As for the 11 month guys who are so enthusiastic to work, how come on a recent flight back from JFK i heard two of them talking over the aisle of Club about interviews they had upcoming and hoped it was better than BA??
Also, some of them i doubt will come back if they seen how much money they were on with a temp contract, and then how much they could be on at singlefleet!
But each to their own, and that was my opinion which im entitled to have, as well as every other tom dick and harry on here!
N4790P
but the crew are the ones who spend most time with our passengers, so they have to bear in mind, if they want premium service they need to pay premium money, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys!
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BA LHR cabin crew salaries will not be the death of the airline. The wages were the same last year and almost £1 billion profit was made. Union busting will cost a fortune this year, not crew wages.
I strongly believe that it is pilot salaries that are sinking BA. Pilots are actually paying to have the privilege to fly elsewhere in the world. I bet there are no cabin crew doing that!
Get better fuel hedge fund managers!
I strongly believe that it is pilot salaries that are sinking BA. Pilots are actually paying to have the privilege to fly elsewhere in the world. I bet there are no cabin crew doing that!
Get better fuel hedge fund managers!
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...Ah at last the BASSA spin and solution is revealed.
1. Pilots should take a pay cut or better still "pay to fly".
2. Sack our current hedge fund managers.........
3. Leave Cabin Crew T&C's alone.
Well whilst "1" and "2" might happen ( well at least the pay cut bit) there's not a Snowball's chance in hell of your T&C's being left alone.
I honestly, honestly think BASSA are in denial - I just hope ( I really do) that you and your colleagues come out of this reasonably unscathed and we all come out of this with a job in 12 months time.
1. Pilots should take a pay cut or better still "pay to fly".
2. Sack our current hedge fund managers.........
3. Leave Cabin Crew T&C's alone.
Well whilst "1" and "2" might happen ( well at least the pay cut bit) there's not a Snowball's chance in hell of your T&C's being left alone.
I honestly, honestly think BASSA are in denial - I just hope ( I really do) that you and your colleagues come out of this reasonably unscathed and we all come out of this with a job in 12 months time.
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"BA LHR cabin crew salaries will not be the death of the airline"
"I strongly believe that it is pilot salaries that are sinking BA."
This is a beautifully nonsensical argument - the exact same thing could be said of any group of staff within BA. Perhaps you have failed to notice the massive change in world economics since then? I admit that management have failed to make the case for a permanent change but to suggest that the reason that the airline is in trouble is purely down to pilot costs merely detracts from any sensible point you had to make.
BASSA need to do better, the old mantra of leave us alone, take the money off someone else will not wash in this economic climate. Changes have to be made now to all departments, or else we end up like Sabena, Swissair etc.
"I strongly believe that it is pilot salaries that are sinking BA."
This is a beautifully nonsensical argument - the exact same thing could be said of any group of staff within BA. Perhaps you have failed to notice the massive change in world economics since then? I admit that management have failed to make the case for a permanent change but to suggest that the reason that the airline is in trouble is purely down to pilot costs merely detracts from any sensible point you had to make.
BASSA need to do better, the old mantra of leave us alone, take the money off someone else will not wash in this economic climate. Changes have to be made now to all departments, or else we end up like Sabena, Swissair etc.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 30th May 2009 at 08:08.