BA and Project Columbus III
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
From: Reading
Litebulbs, personally I think Willie cares more passionately about the airline than many of my Cabin Crew colleagues.
Having had Willie stop and chat to me a few months ago I was very impressed by him, and his knowledge of the business. Few of us are probably aware of the hours he puts in, and his dedication to keep us in business, and improve the business.
I disagree with your post. Lets look to the future. We need to change our old agreements. I feel for many crew, especially, many part-timers, BA is just a 'hobby' and passengers an 'inconvenience', but mostly a method, as you said of Willie, of getting cash.
Having had Willie stop and chat to me a few months ago I was very impressed by him, and his knowledge of the business. Few of us are probably aware of the hours he puts in, and his dedication to keep us in business, and improve the business.
I disagree with your post. Lets look to the future. We need to change our old agreements. I feel for many crew, especially, many part-timers, BA is just a 'hobby' and passengers an 'inconvenience', but mostly a method, as you said of Willie, of getting cash.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
From: LHR
As an employee of BA I have a vested interest in this debate. I still find it amazing that BASSA are pedalling the message that WW is making it all up, stand by your guns lads/ladettes "we'll all be fine! Well, on planet BASSA that maybe true but in reality we are in the pooh.
I went to Mumbai at the weekend and we were pretty much full, great I thought - we must be making some money here. Not so, a quick glance at the PIL showed 42 Upgrades to Club (and I am informed we're more or less giving away Econ tickets at the moment). BASSA would say that they were all paying Club fares (why let the truth get in the way of good yarn).
Our revenue has collapsed, WW has gone public (why on earth would he do that? Do we really want the World to know just how bad things are at BA? No, of course not).
I sincerely hope that BASSA negotiate something, any imposed new contract is going to be worse than what might be achieved by negotiation, if BASSA actually want to negotiate, that is. The comparison between BASSA and Bob Crowe's RMT is remarkable.
BA is a 21st Century airline, in a 21st Century recession. BASSA is a 1970s union. For all our sakes I truely hope BASSA can evolve in the next 12 days to a union that tries to secure a future for its members rather than hammering another nail in the coffin for the rest of the employees.
I went to Mumbai at the weekend and we were pretty much full, great I thought - we must be making some money here. Not so, a quick glance at the PIL showed 42 Upgrades to Club (and I am informed we're more or less giving away Econ tickets at the moment). BASSA would say that they were all paying Club fares (why let the truth get in the way of good yarn).
Our revenue has collapsed, WW has gone public (why on earth would he do that? Do we really want the World to know just how bad things are at BA? No, of course not).
I sincerely hope that BASSA negotiate something, any imposed new contract is going to be worse than what might be achieved by negotiation, if BASSA actually want to negotiate, that is. The comparison between BASSA and Bob Crowe's RMT is remarkable.
BA is a 21st Century airline, in a 21st Century recession. BASSA is a 1970s union. For all our sakes I truely hope BASSA can evolve in the next 12 days to a union that tries to secure a future for its members rather than hammering another nail in the coffin for the rest of the employees.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,606
Likes: 0
From: UK
Re-Heat. Working for free is such a stupid idea, even Michael O'Leary didn't think of it!! He must be kicking himself now. MOL makes his staff pay for their training and uniforms, why not make them work for free as well!
Hmm, comming from the managemnt tree that was fined for dirty tricks. Wise up. WW does not give a 5hite about BA. It is a mechanism to cash for him. 95% of the work force have pride in BA. He does not.
Quite honestly Andy,your claim that Walsh cares more about BA than many cabin crew is absolutely preposterous. However there are many people who are naive, in denial and feel they can put their trust in Walsh. His track record at BA is a disaster...so far. Most crew have long service in BA with pensions at stake, it is in their interest that BA survives. They will still be there long after Walsh has gone. Crew who are on a 11 month contracts with no hope of promotion and the possibility of not being called back at the end of their term, would not have the same level of motivation.
Walsh's record at BA is as a man who is motivated - while the first month of T5 was as nightmare, it pales in comparison to virtually all other terminal openings, including Changi, Schipol and Bangkok, all of which were a complete disaster for more than a year. Price fixing pre-dated his arrival, and under his watch, the company generated a high level of profitability before the recent crash. If you frame your opinion of the man solely based upon what you extract from the company in compensation, then we are always going to disagree, so this is a moot point.
It is surprising that in a brief chat, some employees can be convinced of a person's integrity. Sadly history is littered with instances of people believing CEO's, politicians and the rest.
Flap33. You obviously do not support BASSA, please resign if you are a member. I would hate to think that someone who is so obviously trying to undemine their negotiations, should benefit in any way from the outcome.
Classic autocracy - not a hint of democracy or listening to the members.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
From: london
PiB
1. Watch this space
2. Why? As much as I hate OS, its been given its sum of money to start up, it will be given no more money, its not using BAs hedged fuel, and its not worth anything. It stands alone.
3. Already explained by a previous poster, the route is underwritten by a bank, so you advocate pulling the plug and give all those bankers a choice who they fly across the pond with from LHR, maybe they would fly with us maybe they wouldn't but t least this way we have a captive audience.
Shelving First class is being considered on many routes, as is going the way Qantas have and sell the seat but give a business class service. Problem BA has is that is not "fast of foot" they would of course have to agree everything with BASSA first
FYI the 777 being delivered in the coming years have no first class.
1. Watch this space
2. Why? As much as I hate OS, its been given its sum of money to start up, it will be given no more money, its not using BAs hedged fuel, and its not worth anything. It stands alone.
3. Already explained by a previous poster, the route is underwritten by a bank, so you advocate pulling the plug and give all those bankers a choice who they fly across the pond with from LHR, maybe they would fly with us maybe they wouldn't but t least this way we have a captive audience.
Shelving First class is being considered on many routes, as is going the way Qantas have and sell the seat but give a business class service. Problem BA has is that is not "fast of foot" they would of course have to agree everything with BASSA first
FYI the 777 being delivered in the coming years have no first class.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 277
Likes: 1
From: Out and About
PiB
Yes, wasn't it only yesterday that you were believing the Employment Minister and her supposed comments about BAs offer of VUW being illegal?
I'm still searching for any reports on that. She was in Liverpool yesterday, and spoke about employment prospects for the young.
It is surprising that in a brief chat, some employees can be convinced of a person's integrity. Sadly history is littered with instances of people believing CEO's, politicians and the rest. Mr Walsh is motivated by his contract terms, not a love of BA.
I'm still searching for any reports on that. She was in Liverpool yesterday, and spoke about employment prospects for the young.
Last edited by TorC; 18th June 2009 at 09:47. Reason: change VUL to VUW
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,606
Likes: 0
From: UK
Lord Bracken, to answer your point. If there was such a sea change away from premium travel BA would:
1. Cancel the new First Class enhancements
2. Ground OpenSkies
3. Shelve the new LCY/JFK service.
1. Cancel the new First Class enhancements
2. Ground OpenSkies
3. Shelve the new LCY/JFK service.
2) I doubt there would be much value in doing so - the costs have already been expended to acquire slots, L'Avion, crew and marketing. Greater costs exist in IT distribution that could be eliminated by implementing Amadeus' new products instead, or indeed eliminating the complexity of the cabin crew contracts.
3) As I said before, it is funded by Barclays Captial - no cost to BA...
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
From: London
Your comments about crew are so derogatory, frankly I do not believe you are BA crew yourself, because what you say is not true. Also you spend so much time on this forum, I do not think you are even employed.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,606
Likes: 0
From: UK
Since allowances are taxed to some extent as benefits in kind, unpaid work with allowances would indeed be permissible per the first two paragraphs of the Act. While contractually classed as "allowances", they are in fact not treated as such by HRMC, which determines them to be partly benefits in kind ("BIKs").
In essence, without a valuation of BiKs (which allowances are partly treated as, and partly not, depending upon the HMRC assessment), then nobody can say whether or not it is a legal move.
National Minimum Wage Act:
National Minimum Wage Act 1998 (c. 39)
In essence, we are all talking out our rear, so should resist from opining on the matter.
The London City operation being underwritten by Barclays Capital is, I assure you, not a rumour.
In essence, without a valuation of BiKs (which allowances are partly treated as, and partly not, depending upon the HMRC assessment), then nobody can say whether or not it is a legal move.
National Minimum Wage Act:
National Minimum Wage Act 1998 (c. 39)
In essence, we are all talking out our rear, so should resist from opining on the matter.
The London City operation being underwritten by Barclays Capital is, I assure you, not a rumour.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,606
Likes: 0
From: UK
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
From: london
PiB
Then it will fail, but remember they are not burdened by the costs BA have, so the number of seats they sell to break even will be a lot less.
I'm confused, are you suggesting that BA should turn down the business from whichever bank is underwriting the route? If you are then its a bewildering stance to take.
Da Dog. OpenSkies loads are being monitored. I do not see how single digit loads from AMS to JFK pay the costs of the operation?
There is a rumour that Barclays have underwritten the LCY/JFK operation, but there is no proof. Obviously Barclay shareholders would want to know about this flying junket at their expense, especially in the current trading conditions.
Joined: Nov 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 538
Likes: 182
From: Between a rock & a hard place.
Some thoughts from BA ground staff.
The major issue BA staff, apart from Flight Ops, is the permanent nature of change. Perhaps this is why.
Dear Members
A quick word from our talks. We have not got anywhere yet. The battle is still on the Terms and Conditions which as per your strong mandate at the mass meeting are non-negotiable.
This said, you have heard about two of our communities reaching a deal with BA recently via the intranet. The first community is Engineering and the second community are the Pilots.
The Engineering deal was mainly about the amalgamation of two work areas without any impact on terms and conditions. The pilot deal is similar to the engineers in that it does not affect terms and conditions. Traditionally you only got to hear that our flying colleagues have settled but the fine prints were always a closely guarded affair. Not this time.
In view of our incessant demand for openness and transparency and in view of our demand for a shared pain from everyone at BA during this crisis we are in possession of those fine prints and as responsible representatives take at heart your right to be informed as to whether the pain is proportionately applied.
The document, we are glad to announce is not subject to any confidentiality clause otherwise it would have been written all over it and it was found laying around a hotel lobby. So our hope is nobody will be offended. They should not be because it is a damn good deal. This is not a pilot bashing session by the way as they do a very valued and respected job. In fact, pilots’ negotiators have to be applauded for achieving this sort of a deal given the current circumstances. However this is now going to be the benchmark for the rest of us as we all do valued and respected jobs for a valued employer.
The document starts off by acknowledging that “the deepening recession is having a serious impact on BA’s business and the company must respond to its financial position”. “The company will continue to monitor economic and trading conditions, and in the event of any material changes may seek further discussions”. The last sentence is code for temporary solutions in case things improve.
Pay and Productivity Target
“To maintain the overall annual pilot pay bill at its current level (for the financial year ending 31 March 2009) during period 1 April 2009 to 31 March 2011, subject to adjustments in flying volumes”.
What is a pilot’s pay made of?
Long haul Captain +16 year’s service with a basic salary of £116,680
NAPS pensionable salary of £110,205; and an annual increment due on 1 December 2009. The annual increment is £3,471 on basic salary and £3,278 on pensionable salary.
Basic salary: This would be reduced from £116,680 to £113,635 from 1 October 2009 but would be increased to £117,015 from1 December 2009 to reflect annual increment;
Pensionable salary: This would remain unchanged at £110,205 from 1 October 2009 but would increase to £113,483 from 1 December 2009 to reflect annual increment.
Furthermore, all pilots employed on June 2011 will be granted the right to receive a number of “free” shares based on the company share price on that date subject to pre-grant performance conditions having been met
Two further awards will be made on June 2012 and June 2013 subject to the pre-grant performance conditions (explained below).
What does it all mean?
Number of shares available for grant = 6.8/£1.80 = 3,777,777 shares with a value of £13,000,000.
Shares available for Captains 2,153,333 (57%)
Shares available for Co-pilots 1,624,444 (43%)
Number of Captains in scheme 1,600
Number of Co-pilots in scheme 1,600
Shares granted for each Captain 1,346
Shares granted for each Co-pilot 1,015
Value of shares at vest date will depend on share price at the time, so there is potential for grant to grow in value.
We also learn through the document that two key indicators to get the shares will depend on “think customers” and “ready to go” targets that ground staff and other customer facing staff achieve. If we miss any of those targets the cash made available is reduced by 25%. The company motto is “To Fly To Serve”; not We Serve They fly or to be more precise; We Serve, They Earn, we should all earn.
Another target to determine the level of share issue is the Operating Marging. The threshold target is 6% where 60% of the shares above are allocated, 7% = 70%, 8% = 80%, 9% = 90%, 10% = 100%.
Before we forget, pilots’ contribution to head count reduction came to 66.42 heads, compared to our 1000. BA will also “take all reasonable steps to manage this surplus using voluntary rather than compulsory measures.
Again absolute bravo to BALPA. However as we are all part of One Team, it is only fair that BA builds a stake-holding future with all its employees, not just some. We also salute BA’s approach here as it firmly shows that this airline has future potential and this is the kind of information that should find its way in the newspapers. Not all of the damaging news that are being drip fed in order to sap the morale of all those hard working women and men of the “world’s favourite’s airline”.
Yours in solidarity
On Behalf Of The A-scale NSP Subgroup
Dear Members
A quick word from our talks. We have not got anywhere yet. The battle is still on the Terms and Conditions which as per your strong mandate at the mass meeting are non-negotiable.
This said, you have heard about two of our communities reaching a deal with BA recently via the intranet. The first community is Engineering and the second community are the Pilots.
The Engineering deal was mainly about the amalgamation of two work areas without any impact on terms and conditions. The pilot deal is similar to the engineers in that it does not affect terms and conditions. Traditionally you only got to hear that our flying colleagues have settled but the fine prints were always a closely guarded affair. Not this time.
In view of our incessant demand for openness and transparency and in view of our demand for a shared pain from everyone at BA during this crisis we are in possession of those fine prints and as responsible representatives take at heart your right to be informed as to whether the pain is proportionately applied.
The document, we are glad to announce is not subject to any confidentiality clause otherwise it would have been written all over it and it was found laying around a hotel lobby. So our hope is nobody will be offended. They should not be because it is a damn good deal. This is not a pilot bashing session by the way as they do a very valued and respected job. In fact, pilots’ negotiators have to be applauded for achieving this sort of a deal given the current circumstances. However this is now going to be the benchmark for the rest of us as we all do valued and respected jobs for a valued employer.
The document starts off by acknowledging that “the deepening recession is having a serious impact on BA’s business and the company must respond to its financial position”. “The company will continue to monitor economic and trading conditions, and in the event of any material changes may seek further discussions”. The last sentence is code for temporary solutions in case things improve.
Pay and Productivity Target
“To maintain the overall annual pilot pay bill at its current level (for the financial year ending 31 March 2009) during period 1 April 2009 to 31 March 2011, subject to adjustments in flying volumes”.
What is a pilot’s pay made of?
Long haul Captain +16 year’s service with a basic salary of £116,680
NAPS pensionable salary of £110,205; and an annual increment due on 1 December 2009. The annual increment is £3,471 on basic salary and £3,278 on pensionable salary.
Basic salary: This would be reduced from £116,680 to £113,635 from 1 October 2009 but would be increased to £117,015 from1 December 2009 to reflect annual increment;
Pensionable salary: This would remain unchanged at £110,205 from 1 October 2009 but would increase to £113,483 from 1 December 2009 to reflect annual increment.
Furthermore, all pilots employed on June 2011 will be granted the right to receive a number of “free” shares based on the company share price on that date subject to pre-grant performance conditions having been met
Two further awards will be made on June 2012 and June 2013 subject to the pre-grant performance conditions (explained below).
What does it all mean?
Number of shares available for grant = 6.8/£1.80 = 3,777,777 shares with a value of £13,000,000.
Shares available for Captains 2,153,333 (57%)
Shares available for Co-pilots 1,624,444 (43%)
Number of Captains in scheme 1,600
Number of Co-pilots in scheme 1,600
Shares granted for each Captain 1,346
Shares granted for each Co-pilot 1,015
Value of shares at vest date will depend on share price at the time, so there is potential for grant to grow in value.
We also learn through the document that two key indicators to get the shares will depend on “think customers” and “ready to go” targets that ground staff and other customer facing staff achieve. If we miss any of those targets the cash made available is reduced by 25%. The company motto is “To Fly To Serve”; not We Serve They fly or to be more precise; We Serve, They Earn, we should all earn.
Another target to determine the level of share issue is the Operating Marging. The threshold target is 6% where 60% of the shares above are allocated, 7% = 70%, 8% = 80%, 9% = 90%, 10% = 100%.
Before we forget, pilots’ contribution to head count reduction came to 66.42 heads, compared to our 1000. BA will also “take all reasonable steps to manage this surplus using voluntary rather than compulsory measures.
Again absolute bravo to BALPA. However as we are all part of One Team, it is only fair that BA builds a stake-holding future with all its employees, not just some. We also salute BA’s approach here as it firmly shows that this airline has future potential and this is the kind of information that should find its way in the newspapers. Not all of the damaging news that are being drip fed in order to sap the morale of all those hard working women and men of the “world’s favourite’s airline”.
Yours in solidarity
On Behalf Of The A-scale NSP Subgroup
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
The numbers quoted are right. However, it has missed out a great deal of other details and most of the rest is an error of omission (the second half of the document to be precise).
Good to see BASSA keeping their standards up.
In particular:
In addition to the numbers quoted, all pilots are to reduce their flying hour pay by £2 per hour. Given the number of hours generally flown, this will be between £1500 and £1800 per pilot per year (yes, some guys already fly 900 hours per year!!).
Time Away from Base Pay has been frozen at the rate from two years ago. These are all permanent changes.
More bolleaux.
Not sure what the engineers agreed to, however the pilots have agreed to among other things reduced report times and shorter turnrounds between flights (allowing more duty/flying hours on a given day) and an increase to the number of hours we can work in the year (meaning an extra 3 or 4 days work a year). Put into context, a junior shorthaul Captain will lose around £5000 per year for ever (that's £100k over 20 years, BASSA - just thought I'd point that out as you clearly have difficulty with numbers, given that you've seen the same data as BALPA) and have to work significantly harder as well.
The "pay increment" is a red herring as all paypoints have been reduced by the same percentage. To put it in Willie's "work for free" terms, that's a free month every year for ever. Even he isn't doing that and trust me, a few share options aren't even going to come close to getting that back.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Do any of you honestly think that we'd be stupid enough to make sacrifices like that if we didn't know the state of the business, particularly given the recent BA/BALPA history?
Grow up.
Good to see BASSA keeping their standards up.
In particular:
In addition to the numbers quoted, all pilots are to reduce their flying hour pay by £2 per hour. Given the number of hours generally flown, this will be between £1500 and £1800 per pilot per year (yes, some guys already fly 900 hours per year!!).
Time Away from Base Pay has been frozen at the rate from two years ago. These are all permanent changes.
The pilot deal is similar to the engineers in that it does not affect terms and conditions.
Not sure what the engineers agreed to, however the pilots have agreed to among other things reduced report times and shorter turnrounds between flights (allowing more duty/flying hours on a given day) and an increase to the number of hours we can work in the year (meaning an extra 3 or 4 days work a year). Put into context, a junior shorthaul Captain will lose around £5000 per year for ever (that's £100k over 20 years, BASSA - just thought I'd point that out as you clearly have difficulty with numbers, given that you've seen the same data as BALPA) and have to work significantly harder as well.
The "pay increment" is a red herring as all paypoints have been reduced by the same percentage. To put it in Willie's "work for free" terms, that's a free month every year for ever. Even he isn't doing that and trust me, a few share options aren't even going to come close to getting that back.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Do any of you honestly think that we'd be stupid enough to make sacrifices like that if we didn't know the state of the business, particularly given the recent BA/BALPA history?
Grow up.
Last edited by Human Factor; 18th June 2009 at 13:06.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
From: london
FWIW everyone I have spoken to believes that we will never see these shares, they are IMHO just a sweetener to the deal at nil cost to BA.
That is what happens when you work for a department that is lean in the employee department. However we (pilots) all know that there is more to come, and the very real threat of CR could just be around the corner. No mention of this from BASSA.
Perhaps the Cabin Crew can lose a few 1000 heads because of the 1970s style inefficiencies built into their rostering agreements. The pilots at this time cannot. I have had my request for unpaid leave turned down now for the last 2 months because the fleet is to busy.
BASSA and the NSP A scale have left out the devil of the detail in their address to members, but we wouldn't want the truth getting in the way, would we??
Before we forget, pilots’ contribution to head count reduction came to 66.42 heads, compared to our 1000. BA will also “take all reasonable steps to manage this surplus using voluntary rather than compulsory measures.
Perhaps the Cabin Crew can lose a few 1000 heads because of the 1970s style inefficiencies built into their rostering agreements. The pilots at this time cannot. I have had my request for unpaid leave turned down now for the last 2 months because the fleet is to busy.
BASSA and the NSP A scale have left out the devil of the detail in their address to members, but we wouldn't want the truth getting in the way, would we??
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
While I think about it BASSA, the document in question only has a header on page 1. The only way to be sure that it was the correct document would be to see page 1. In fact, you must have it because:
... is the second sentence of the first paragraph.
Just below it, also on page 1, a header used is "Combined Pay and Productivity Package".
So why do you insist:
... when you obviously know this is not the case?
Clearly as a Union, BASSA represents the best interests of it's members (one hopes). I would therefore consider extremely carefully what is being handed over by other NSPs before committing your cause to it so wholeheartedly. You wouldn't want to come across as misleading your membership now, would you?
Edit: Silly me. I forgot the BALPA reps in fact GAVE BASSA a copy of the agreement.
... “the deepening recession is having a serious impact on BA’s business and the company must respond to its financial position”...
Just below it, also on page 1, a header used is "Combined Pay and Productivity Package".
So why do you insist:
"The pilot deal is similar to the engineers in that it does not affect terms and conditions."
Clearly as a Union, BASSA represents the best interests of it's members (one hopes). I would therefore consider extremely carefully what is being handed over by other NSPs before committing your cause to it so wholeheartedly. You wouldn't want to come across as misleading your membership now, would you?
Edit: Silly me. I forgot the BALPA reps in fact GAVE BASSA a copy of the agreement.
Last edited by Human Factor; 18th June 2009 at 13:35.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 277
Likes: 1
From: Out and About
re: Some thoughts from BA groundstaff
Just to clarify, the info posted by PC767 is an email from the A Scale NSP to groundstaff such as Check-In etc. It was sent out last night.
I guess BASSA may also have seen the found document, but as far as I am aware (as a BASSA member), it has not yet been circulated to us.
I guess BASSA may also have seen the found document, but as far as I am aware (as a BASSA member), it has not yet been circulated to us.