BA and Project Columbus III
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 142
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From: Reading
Ahh PIB, chill. It's your "never been employed" colleague Andy here. It's a shame we couldn't have met up at the T5 CRC today.
We could have read the BASSA noticeboard together. Sadly it still has copies of an article from The Times dated June 11, about Willie's payrise, but not his not accepting it.
I would have even bought you a coffee, Indi was making them today.
But never mind.
Now, when are BASSA going to secure our future?
We could have read the BASSA noticeboard together. Sadly it still has copies of an article from The Times dated June 11, about Willie's payrise, but not his not accepting it.
I would have even bought you a coffee, Indi was making them today.
But never mind.
Now, when are BASSA going to secure our future?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,934
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From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Just to clarify, the info posted by PC767 is an email from the A Scale NSP to groundstaff such as Check-In etc. It was sent out last night.
I guess BASSA may also have seen the found document, but as far as I am aware (as a BASSA member), it has not yet been circulated to us.
I guess BASSA may also have seen the found document, but as far as I am aware (as a BASSA member), it has not yet been circulated to us.
As we know from the Open Skies court case, emails and phone calls are a matter of record and can be used as evidence. Dodgy legal ground if you want to try to call a strike ballot.
Last edited by Human Factor; 18th June 2009 at 16:37.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 277
Likes: 1
From: Out and About
It was released to BASSA members on their forum this morning (as disclosed here) but the BASSA reps have had the full agreement since Monday 15th June, courtesy of the BALPA reps.
As we know from the Open Skies court case, emails and phone calls are a matter of record and can be used as evidence. Dodgy legal ground if you want to try to call a strike ballot.
As we know from the Open Skies court case, emails and phone calls are a matter of record and can be used as evidence. Dodgy legal ground if you want to try to call a strike ballot.
Maybe I should, but I don't ever visit the BASSA forum.
Sorry, that makes my orig post a bit of a waste I guess. I'm going to ignore myself for a while
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
"The pilot deal is similar to the engineers in that it does not affect terms and conditions"
So I'm taking a cut on basic pay, taking a cut in hourly rate, working more hours a year...and it's doesn't effect my terms and conditions....
Well either the BASSA reps are underestimating the intelligence of their membership, or they are preparing the grounds for their defence in the event of a similar hit on Cabin Crew pay and allowances: "Yes, you've taken a pay cut, your allowances have been junked, but remember as promised we kept your T&Cs unchanged...."
So I'm taking a cut on basic pay, taking a cut in hourly rate, working more hours a year...and it's doesn't effect my terms and conditions....
Well either the BASSA reps are underestimating the intelligence of their membership, or they are preparing the grounds for their defence in the event of a similar hit on Cabin Crew pay and allowances: "Yes, you've taken a pay cut, your allowances have been junked, but remember as promised we kept your T&Cs unchanged...."
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 383
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From: London
The battle is still on the Terms and Conditions which as per your strong mandate at the mass meeting are non-negotiable.
Moderator
Joined: Feb 1998
Posts: 3,051
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From: Europe
Mr Coppid, it is indeed a thread about BA CC and what they will contribute to the savings demanded by the current economic crisis/BA's CEO.
A BA CC thread on which a number of people, who according to their profiles are pilots, choose to participate vigorously.
If and when these participating pilots choose to use the pilot group's concessions as an example or as an argument for CC to concede likewise, it is perhaps understandable that the subject gets discussed?
I agree it would be better if it weren't, but as long as pilots participate here and use these arguments, I fear such discussion is inevitable.
A BA CC thread on which a number of people, who according to their profiles are pilots, choose to participate vigorously.
If and when these participating pilots choose to use the pilot group's concessions as an example or as an argument for CC to concede likewise, it is perhaps understandable that the subject gets discussed?
I agree it would be better if it weren't, but as long as pilots participate here and use these arguments, I fear such discussion is inevitable.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 25
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From: uk
well said flaps forty ,i get fed up with the comparison between "flight deck "and cabin crew myself.We both wear shiney uniforms and work on an aircraft and that is where it should end .Bad CRM or just getting real?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Mr Coppid, it is indeed a thread about BA CC and what they will contribute to the savings demanded by the current economic crisis/BA's CEO.
A BA CC thread on which a number of people, who according to their profiles are pilots, choose to participate vigorously.
If and when these participating pilots choose to use the pilot group's concessions as an example or as an argument for CC to concede likewise, it is perhaps understandable that the subject gets discussed?
I agree it would be better if it weren't, but as long as pilots participate here and use these arguments, I fear such discussion is inevitable.
A BA CC thread on which a number of people, who according to their profiles are pilots, choose to participate vigorously.
If and when these participating pilots choose to use the pilot group's concessions as an example or as an argument for CC to concede likewise, it is perhaps understandable that the subject gets discussed?
I agree it would be better if it weren't, but as long as pilots participate here and use these arguments, I fear such discussion is inevitable.
I don't disagree. The trouble is that it is becoming increasingly apparent that many of our cabin crew colleagues, through no fault of their own, are blundering into something which their own union hasn't given them full knowledge of and look likely to fatally wound our company in the process.
Appreciably, our company could undoubtedly have done a better job with it's own communications and given the "previous" between BA and BASSA, it's unsurprising they've been largely ignored recently.
Keep in mind that PPrune is probably the only independent avenue where this information can be passed (relatively) freely. Our well-known grievances are not and never have been with the cabin crew, they are with BASSA. Yes, the two are linked but not inextricably.
As you rightly say:
...it is indeed a thread about BA CC and what they will contribute to the savings demanded by the current economic crisis/BA's CEO.
Regards,
HF
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: T5
BASSA members... you've got to ask yourself why BASSA is at best deliberately misleading you - and at worst simply lying to its members ...?
Why did BASSA decide to put out only half the facts out in a 'we found it lying around' style document that specifically lied that the pilots T & Cs werent changing - when your Chairperson BASSA (Malone) had been in possession of an emailed copy of the BALPA proposal (directly from a BALPA Rep) since Monday 15th?
Why dont you ask her that specific question and report her answer back here ?
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
For those that think it cannot happen...
BBC NEWS | UK | England | Humber | Total sacks 900 oil plant workers
Be warned.
BBC NEWS | UK | England | Humber | Total sacks 900 oil plant workers
Be warned.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
BASSA have just gone public with their response to the deal done with the pilots. On the crewforum website.
Just read it. None whatsoever.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Just for clarity, the pilots deal needs to be ratified by a ballot of BA BALPA members. I have no doubt it will be. However, the company have also agreed that this deal will not be implemented until and unless all other employee groups have made their required savings.
Bet BASSA haven't mentioned that either (it's on page 4 of the "hotel lobby" document).
Bet BASSA haven't mentioned that either (it's on page 4 of the "hotel lobby" document).
Last edited by Human Factor; 19th June 2009 at 10:51.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,450
Likes: 5
From: UK
Not sure that the caveat applied to the pilot deal is really necessary since WW has made it clear that either savings are negotiated or they will be imposed. Either way, all other depts will be meeting their savings targets whether they like it or not!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,078
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From: Ask OPS!
There are some lovely 'bites' from the BASSA letter! 
Fantastic, I'm sure the BACC would have loved to have known this gem before the hard negotiating began. We could have sat back with our feet up and let the company come begging to us.
Very unfair. The difference is that over the past 10 years the pilot community HAS reached agreements and changed T's & C's with the company, hence the 'pain' this time round is less.
Hmm, again, a little wide of the truth. The figures given in the pilot deal mean a loss of at least £4500 per pilot for each remaining year of employment based upon current salary. The 'share deal' was separately negotiated by BALPA to allow for a LTIP which has a large number of triggers and is worth £4000 dependant on share price. Hardly deferment.
Not just crew BASSA, not just crew, everyone. I.e. the 'other' 26000 people working for BA.
Ahhhhh, no. Considering that pilots are effectively and according to FCO's (as was) the aircrafts line managers this should come as no surprise. It is being funded by the pilots being a quantifiable resource and operating longer hours for less money. Achievable due to correct, timely and sensible pay restructuring and adjusting over the past 10 years or so.
Not set up for a fall or to fail just being asked to negotiate for once and to accept that the years of 'No, no, no and again No, now what was the question?' are over. The company will tackle the disparity of T's & C's for once and for all as the time for BASSA and the CC to accept an adjustment are long overdue.
The funding for the company to survive this downturn is there. The willingness to invest in BA as a profitable airline is there. The business acumen of the investors is telling them 'not until the unions have been brought into line'. This time it will happen.
I don't want anyone to lose jobs over this, hopefully it can all be sorted out like adults and imposition won't happen. Sadly, due to mis-information from the union and thus wasted time and effort on both side I think the time for a negotiated settlement is rapidly slipping past. On a night stop the other day the purser was vociferously against any change with the 'what have I got to lose' argument, whereas the younger crew members actually believed that change was required.
Less than 2 weeks to decision time.
The significant difference was that management "wanted" to reach a deal. They wanted the pilots done and dusted and out of the way, to increase the moral pressure on other areas.
To achieve this, the company has allowed a "sweetheart" deal to be reached
With this deal, any pretence of fairness or equality would appear to have evaporated. When you examine the pilot deal you will see any losses are paid back later which also fits in with Willie Walsh having his bonuses merely deferred until 2011. If you check out the definition of defer in the dictionary it says "to put off something or leave it to a later time" and this, in essence is the secret as to why BALPA are quick to recommend acceptance. But it seems "what's good for the goose is (not) good for the gander" and cabin crew are expected to give up not only much more but also give it up for good.
There seems to be a real "them and us" situation developing here and that is borne out by Mr Walsh's invitation for crew to work a month for nothing.
In short this "let the pilots off easy, make them senior managers and give them free shares policy" is being funded by you.
Judge for yourselves; take a moment to compare this to the pilot's deal outlined below and you will see the difficulty and enormity of the task that we face. Attaining such a cosy arrangement may not be quite so easy for us to reach and how we may well be "being set up to fail" so that Mr Walsh can justify his impositions come July 1st.
The funding for the company to survive this downturn is there. The willingness to invest in BA as a profitable airline is there. The business acumen of the investors is telling them 'not until the unions have been brought into line'. This time it will happen.
I don't want anyone to lose jobs over this, hopefully it can all be sorted out like adults and imposition won't happen. Sadly, due to mis-information from the union and thus wasted time and effort on both side I think the time for a negotiated settlement is rapidly slipping past. On a night stop the other day the purser was vociferously against any change with the 'what have I got to lose' argument, whereas the younger crew members actually believed that change was required.
Less than 2 weeks to decision time.