Virgin - Crew Discussions II
Having followed this thread with interest as a fellow employee (not cabin crew,engineer) I can see that people from both sides of the fence have made valid contributions to the debate and glad to see that we are all adult enough to keep this thread from turning into a name calling playground episode,I feel it would be unfair to generalise/tar all crew with the same brush with the 'me me me' attitude as I guess every profession has a few idiots.Yes your pay is below the industry norm,yes the company could probably spend their money more wisely,and yes the terms that you guys/girls unions have negotiated (I use that word loosely as I'm not sure how much of a fight they put up) but was striking going to alleviate the situation or make it worse not only for yourselves but the rest of the company?I wont even dream of saying you know where the door is if you dont like it because I realize things are never that straightforward.Admittedly the payrise for ground/non unionized staff at less than the rate of inflation was a bitter pill to swallow,and like many I feel undervalued (who doesnt,right?) but if the money aint there then what else were we going to do?At the risk of being flamed (but this is open debate right?) the company need to stop recruiting people who are effectively school leavers and only stick around for a few months,maybe a year,and take some more mature,dedicated staff but then who else with a bit of maturity and dedication is willing to work the antisocial hours for not a lot of money?Tough call but it certainly shows in the level of care and service from 'more experienced' crew members,maybe not everyones idealogical view of the virgin way but as has been previously mentioned would you rather be served by a thirty something crew member who was attentive and happy to help or a disinterested 20 year old who is only looking forward to getting to the bar/beach/Abercrombie shop(sorry I couldnt resist) down route?Apologies if this doesnt make much sense 12 hour shift plays havoc with the mind....Take care out there guys and girls and mind the treehuggers at LHR
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Here's a quote "When acceptance has been achieved we will work through the various staff representative committees to both explain the construction of the Cabin Crew agreement and look to see how we might apply similar principles in other areas of the business." So reading between the lines they are going to look at way's of screwing over other departments if the cabin crew accept!!!!
There are bad cabin crew the same as there are bad engineers or pilots or check in agents. There are also plenty more good ones & perhaps they do deserve a better deal with no "small print".
There are bad cabin crew the same as there are bad engineers or pilots or check in agents. There are also plenty more good ones & perhaps they do deserve a better deal with no "small print".
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at the end of the day its all about the managers (and I use that term loosely) screwing over the staff so they get a nice big bonus themselves.
I really hope the crew can see through the spin and vote no.
I really hope the crew can see through the spin and vote no.
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An office newbie (joined feb 07) just took home £1725.00. Thats more than an FSM with the new pay deal. The newbies skill? Office admin!
I have noticed though on the recuritment pages of the intranet that the jobs that are not airline related, such as the IT/Media/Accounting etc jobs pay substantially more as they have to pay wages in accordance with those industries to attract the good staff, however when you compare those to the Airline based jobs, the pay levels soon drop across the board. Example I saw a year or so ago - Onboard Media Specialist :- Role - to produce the little Virginified titles that are before/after/between the films on the IFE - salary £45k.
Ops Duty Manager :- Role - day to day management of the whole of VS's flying program, making decisions on a/c swaps, delay resolution etc etc - salary £30k.
Now who's job would you say has the most responsiblility and is more important ?. The low wages are a problem across the whole of the airline industry not just with c/crew. The only people that get paid a decent amount is the pilots and the very senior management.
VS69,
I've been thinking for years that the problem with the service on VS is the age of the crew. Many are too young, have very little experience dealing with the public and forget that flying for an awful lot of the population can be a very stessful experience, and hence I think thats why some of the crew end up in stand off situations with passengers over silly little things such as being asked for a glass of water. Now that VS has legally been forced to drop the upper age limit, I have noticed a few more mature junior crew members (if that makes sense) joining the ranks, and I think that in time we will end up with a healthy balance between young inexperienced crew and more mature crew members. Look at the US airlines - some of their crew are in their 60's, but they provide great service and are less likely to suffer from abuse from disgruntled pax than a young 19/20 something. Alot of good service is down to just plain good manners and knowing how to speak to people as you would like to be spoken to - a problem which from various industries seems to be a problem with the "yoof of 2day".
As you can probably tell, I am not c/crew either but I work fairly closely with you, but just remember when you are crew down you get a nice little payment for it. Spare a though for the other departments on the ground who when they are staff down (can be as many as 20+ at check-in sometimes) they get no more for it, and have twice as much work to do to try and get you guys away ontime as well as putting up with the sh!t from pax.
With regards to your payrise, all we got was 2% thats it - no discussions nothing, 2% like it or lump it.
We have no union to fight for us, as ground staff we are all in the same boat, engineers/office staff/airport staff etc and the problem we get is that someone who does just do office work, who could do the same job in any old office comes to work for an airline that gives them 7 free flights a year as well as everything else so they think it is great and when we have tried to vote in the union, they all reject it so us front line airport staff have to suffer as a result.
Just remember that next time you think things are bad - they are not much better on the ground either. The only bonus we get (if you can call it that) is that we get to spend most nights in our own beds at home unless we are working nightshift !!.
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Some very good points , however. just one question if you ever did get union recogition, would you accept the first deal on the table ,now that you finally after all these years had someone, supposedly fighting your corner ,or would you negotiate!!!!!! I suspect the latter. Also a nice little earner it isnt ,being crew down and at least on the ground the customers have somewhere to cool down if feeling disgruntled after 20 mins or so at check in they are out of your face. With cabin crew they have nowhere to go so 5 pound upto 100 pound before tax is something i would do without and have either a a full crew or better product rather than the hassle of 9 + hours with disgruntled customers. Also earlier a comment was made saying it would be so much better recruiting cabin crew of a more mature age , with which i could not agree more however on the basic as it is now , many 30+ have financial commitments and simply could not manage on the poor salary!!!!! so its a very vicious circle. Unfortunatley we do have very young immature crew who do simply believe good customer service is simply turning up for the flight, on a weekend !!!!!! who hopefully (Im very naive) with good css and fsms can be wittled down.
Last edited by pokergirl; 19th Aug 2007 at 10:16. Reason: mistake
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Leezyjet - Union
Hello,
I used to be heavily involved in the Union at my old job and I do believe (unless it has changed) that Union representation has to be invited. In other words you have to ask them into your work place to be represented by them if you currently do not have representation; they are not aloud to approach you in the first instance. So if you’re looking for Union representation, it might be worth looking on the internet to find one you like and invite them in.
I used to be heavily involved in the Union at my old job and I do believe (unless it has changed) that Union representation has to be invited. In other words you have to ask them into your work place to be represented by them if you currently do not have representation; they are not aloud to approach you in the first instance. So if you’re looking for Union representation, it might be worth looking on the internet to find one you like and invite them in.
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union
Kieranlgw. Which union were you involved with if you don't mind me asking? The T&G is very active at the moment at most UK airports and do not wait for invitations to approach cabin crew. Although an invitation now and then would be more than welcome.
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Hi, sorry to divert the conversation away from the pay deal.
Lately, I have had a pretty bad run of lazy, demotivating, and arrogant Onboard Managers. I am just getting pretty sick and tired of it. I am sick of slaving away, and not being recognised for it, and more importantly when I ask for feedback, I am told that I should subtly kiss up to CSSs more. Saying to the CSSs how lovely my pax in my section are, and how I joined a couple up to Flying Club... Or promoting our new routes.
Anyway, I am fealing really disheartened by all of this, and am not sure how much longer i can put up with it, especially considering the rediculously low salary I am receiving.
I know how to do my job well. Been flying for two years now. My onboard SEP is by the book, and always make suggestions on how to make the service more efficient.
I'm hoping someone has some advice, or can share their thoughts on this subject.
But there have been some amazing CSSs and FSMs! If you are one of those.... THANK YOU!
xxx
Lately, I have had a pretty bad run of lazy, demotivating, and arrogant Onboard Managers. I am just getting pretty sick and tired of it. I am sick of slaving away, and not being recognised for it, and more importantly when I ask for feedback, I am told that I should subtly kiss up to CSSs more. Saying to the CSSs how lovely my pax in my section are, and how I joined a couple up to Flying Club... Or promoting our new routes.
Anyway, I am fealing really disheartened by all of this, and am not sure how much longer i can put up with it, especially considering the rediculously low salary I am receiving.
I know how to do my job well. Been flying for two years now. My onboard SEP is by the book, and always make suggestions on how to make the service more efficient.
I'm hoping someone has some advice, or can share their thoughts on this subject.
But there have been some amazing CSSs and FSMs! If you are one of those.... THANK YOU!
xxx
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With regards to "lazy" onboard managers, I have to say my other half comes home many a day saying exactly what you said, feeling that ultimately hard work is not recognised by managers. What to do? I wouldn't work for a company that obviously cares so little about individuals, which is demonstrated by the total disregard cabin crew managers (both on board and in the office) have about recognising people who work hard, set exactly standards and deliver.
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I would like to think Most CSS's/FSM's will recognise good efforts without being prompted or a$$ kissed -indeed when you do see someone trying to ki$$ ass/suck up or saying, I have done this, I have done that - it makes some managers cringe - no I in team - indeed it could have a negative impact on the observations made by the manager for your performancemonitoring.
When someone who is just getting on with their job to a high standard and requested some feedback once at the beginning of the day and never says another word about it- I believe that is more favourable to I did this I did that crew. This would be my personal advice to anyone out there who is looking to self improve. There are other things you can do in your own time too - those with the drive and determination will figure out what these are - ask an on board manager if they have ime sure they will lend some guidance or better still your assigned teaming manager re personal development.
I personally feel 2 years is not a long time in the role of junior, some people are down the back for 4-5 years before promotion, it's only in recent years that some people have been promoted to senior quickly (fast-tracked). I personally believe that fast tracking isn't necessarily the safest thing in the world and time spent down the back and knowing everything inside out is duly noted and when someone does exceed or is outstanding it is worth making a note of it.
The role of the FSM/CSS is demanding and having time to complete performance monitoring on the crew is one of the duties which unfortunately has to come 2nd to everything else such such as customer service (though I do agree if it's not done then you are not happy in turn customer service not as good etc etc).
My tip would be ask for feedback once and just do the job to the best of your ability, try and be positive (hard sometimes I know) because more than ever it shows when you are not during a service and then things like hero forms, nice pax comments about you to onboard managers and customer services dont come back which all help
Your comment regarding making suggestions on how to make the service more efficient shows willing but remember sometimes this may put someone's nose out of joint (are you telling me how to do my job ??) not always but it's just a thought - all depends in the manner it's done I suppose - diplomacy and CRM and all that but someone may take exception to a junior telling a CSS how FSM how to do things better - sometimes better to just do what is asked of your manager of the day who is probably very busy.
Now to finish this off, now imagine trying to get feedback and performance monitoring on a flight e.g. a 600 with one less crew member (as per current pay proposal) where the CSS/FSM's will be even more busy - it will probably be even harder than it is now !!
Chin up & keep on trying
p.s. there are some odd balls out there that love having their derrières kissed but fortunately I think they are far and few between. Most recognise and issue praise where it is deserved.
When someone who is just getting on with their job to a high standard and requested some feedback once at the beginning of the day and never says another word about it- I believe that is more favourable to I did this I did that crew. This would be my personal advice to anyone out there who is looking to self improve. There are other things you can do in your own time too - those with the drive and determination will figure out what these are - ask an on board manager if they have ime sure they will lend some guidance or better still your assigned teaming manager re personal development.
I personally feel 2 years is not a long time in the role of junior, some people are down the back for 4-5 years before promotion, it's only in recent years that some people have been promoted to senior quickly (fast-tracked). I personally believe that fast tracking isn't necessarily the safest thing in the world and time spent down the back and knowing everything inside out is duly noted and when someone does exceed or is outstanding it is worth making a note of it.
The role of the FSM/CSS is demanding and having time to complete performance monitoring on the crew is one of the duties which unfortunately has to come 2nd to everything else such such as customer service (though I do agree if it's not done then you are not happy in turn customer service not as good etc etc).
My tip would be ask for feedback once and just do the job to the best of your ability, try and be positive (hard sometimes I know) because more than ever it shows when you are not during a service and then things like hero forms, nice pax comments about you to onboard managers and customer services dont come back which all help
Your comment regarding making suggestions on how to make the service more efficient shows willing but remember sometimes this may put someone's nose out of joint (are you telling me how to do my job ??) not always but it's just a thought - all depends in the manner it's done I suppose - diplomacy and CRM and all that but someone may take exception to a junior telling a CSS how FSM how to do things better - sometimes better to just do what is asked of your manager of the day who is probably very busy.
Now to finish this off, now imagine trying to get feedback and performance monitoring on a flight e.g. a 600 with one less crew member (as per current pay proposal) where the CSS/FSM's will be even more busy - it will probably be even harder than it is now !!
Chin up & keep on trying
p.s. there are some odd balls out there that love having their derrières kissed but fortunately I think they are far and few between. Most recognise and issue praise where it is deserved.
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Flip side of the coin...
In response to Just Want to Fly,
I am a CSS and wanted to reassure you that hard work is never overlooked. Just because a CSS/FSM hasn't been able to give you as much feedback as you'd like, it doesn't mean you have been misjudged by an arrogant or lazy onboard manager. If you take a look at the critiques, the standard of performance required to be scored as "meets" is very high. I think that many crew have unrealistic ideals as to what denotes "meets" and what therefore is deemed "exceeds" and "outstanding." On top if this, crew are expecting to be promoted fairly quickly and when this doesn't happen it makes people demotivated. Think realistically about how/where your performance fits into the performance critiques, is what you are doing really an "exceeds" or are you just doing your job and therefore meeting what is required of you. Often some crew are not meeting what is required, but get scored as "meets" which is incorrect. There is a stigma attached to "NI" and to be honest, is anyone really that good at their job 100% of the time?
To put things into some sort of perspective, I was CC for 3.5 years before being promoted to Senior. The promotion system was slightly different but it wasn't unusual to be "down the back" for 3 years.
What I would say is that your FSM/CSSs have a great deal of experience and a very good idea as to who/what makes a good crew member so trust their judgement.
There is a fine line between being pro active and being too pushy, so ensure your efforts are seen as they are intended and not to your detriment.
Finally, have realistic views of timescales. It is unusual to be promoted so quickly especially if you have not flown before.
Don't be disheartened, I like to think I am good at my job, as you consider yourself to be, and it's a CSSs job to recognise people like you.
Happy flying!
I am a CSS and wanted to reassure you that hard work is never overlooked. Just because a CSS/FSM hasn't been able to give you as much feedback as you'd like, it doesn't mean you have been misjudged by an arrogant or lazy onboard manager. If you take a look at the critiques, the standard of performance required to be scored as "meets" is very high. I think that many crew have unrealistic ideals as to what denotes "meets" and what therefore is deemed "exceeds" and "outstanding." On top if this, crew are expecting to be promoted fairly quickly and when this doesn't happen it makes people demotivated. Think realistically about how/where your performance fits into the performance critiques, is what you are doing really an "exceeds" or are you just doing your job and therefore meeting what is required of you. Often some crew are not meeting what is required, but get scored as "meets" which is incorrect. There is a stigma attached to "NI" and to be honest, is anyone really that good at their job 100% of the time?
To put things into some sort of perspective, I was CC for 3.5 years before being promoted to Senior. The promotion system was slightly different but it wasn't unusual to be "down the back" for 3 years.
What I would say is that your FSM/CSSs have a great deal of experience and a very good idea as to who/what makes a good crew member so trust their judgement.
There is a fine line between being pro active and being too pushy, so ensure your efforts are seen as they are intended and not to your detriment.
Finally, have realistic views of timescales. It is unusual to be promoted so quickly especially if you have not flown before.
Don't be disheartened, I like to think I am good at my job, as you consider yourself to be, and it's a CSSs job to recognise people like you.
Happy flying!
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I'm in the union and I don't know when the vote is in! I had it in my head that it was the 25th, but am clearly wrong there otherwise we'd surely have heard the result by now!
Does anyone know when the result will be made known?
Does anyone know when the result will be made known?
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The ballot papers had to be in no later than wednesday 29th August so we should hear something within the next couple of hours.
I have just spoken to someone who flew with a union rep and was told that it will probably be a NO as they can check the incoming ballots and the NO percentage was looking a lot higher although there had been a lot of YES's.
I have just spoken to someone who flew with a union rep and was told that it will probably be a NO as they can check the incoming ballots and the NO percentage was looking a lot higher although there had been a lot of YES's.
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Its a no
According to cc.com its a NO vote. So good news at last 
Its time for our union reps to come back to the crew now and ask us what we want from the pay offer.
Its time for our union reps to come back to the crew now and ask us what we want from the pay offer.
Last edited by back2front; 29th Aug 2007 at 15:29. Reason: addition
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Good point back2front, question is, just how much do we think we should get??? Personally I feel we should get a decent rise to our basic, 10% to 15%. Also we should be getting better delay pay, long range payments for doing trips such as Narita and Jo'burg. The allowances we get for some trips are absolutely pathetic. If we got more money per trip then i'm sure the sickness level will decrease, thus 'increasing productivity levels'. Lets hope its a no!!!
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No vote
Definately need a decent increase on basic pay
plus
#50.00 per sector trip pay
increase on allowances in certain ports.
NO decrease in crew levels, if they do take off crew then the service should be adjusted accordingly i.e. get rid of the stupid 3rd (sandwich) service on west coast usa routes.
No more standby blocks as it was the companies choice to introduce monthly standby so why should we suffer if they have made a mistake.
As you said increasing allowances and trip pay would definately improve sickness levels and therefore decrease the need for extra standy blocks.
plus
#50.00 per sector trip pay
increase on allowances in certain ports.
NO decrease in crew levels, if they do take off crew then the service should be adjusted accordingly i.e. get rid of the stupid 3rd (sandwich) service on west coast usa routes.
No more standby blocks as it was the companies choice to introduce monthly standby so why should we suffer if they have made a mistake.
As you said increasing allowances and trip pay would definately improve sickness levels and therefore decrease the need for extra standy blocks.