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But these people applying are not leaving law firms to join MAM.
They are mostly young, often fresh out of uni (or high school as I encountered last week), or come from hospitality/retail. They often say they are here until it no longer suits, then they'll move on.
They really have little to loose by flying casually, apparently the Middle Eastern Airlines like the experience they come with. I'm really not trying to dull down the issue or your ideas, but the job appeals to people for so many reasons. Targeting just one component of may put some people off applying, but not enough to make an impact (thats my belief anyway).
They are mostly young, often fresh out of uni (or high school as I encountered last week), or come from hospitality/retail. They often say they are here until it no longer suits, then they'll move on.
They really have little to loose by flying casually, apparently the Middle Eastern Airlines like the experience they come with. I'm really not trying to dull down the issue or your ideas, but the job appeals to people for so many reasons. Targeting just one component of may put some people off applying, but not enough to make an impact (thats my belief anyway).
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samford
there is a lot more than just one component..
as i said to the company spokesperson
Money
NO Paid sick leave
NO Paid holidays
NO Super
NO LSL
as Hawk eye said no chance of transfer to a permanent position and i'm sure there are a lot of other points in the latest c contract that are not apealing
but then we can always do what the company and the company spokesperson want us to do and that is NOTHING
there is a lot more than just one component..
as i said to the company spokesperson
Money
NO Paid sick leave
NO Paid holidays
NO Super
NO LSL
as Hawk eye said no chance of transfer to a permanent position and i'm sure there are a lot of other points in the latest c contract that are not apealing
but then we can always do what the company and the company spokesperson want us to do and that is NOTHING
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Who is the company spokesperson?
If you are refering to Twiggs, I believe the post that seemed to get you a tad hot under the collar is:
Well, that statement is infact correct - (Note the word "pay"). MAM casuals get what you and I would get if we started all over again today.
What they don't get is, LSL, paid sick and paid holidays. Once again - ALL Employees, beit on a casual basis or any other are entitled to 9% superannuation.
You see, my point is, look at the market and who is applying. Were you thinking about LSL when you were 20 years old? I know I wasn't.
If you are refering to Twiggs, I believe the post that seemed to get you a tad hot under the collar is:
But Roamingwolf, the "pay" isn't that bad, its just that it is casual work, ie no guaranteed "pay".
What they don't get is, LSL, paid sick and paid holidays. Once again - ALL Employees, beit on a casual basis or any other are entitled to 9% superannuation.
You see, my point is, look at the market and who is applying. Were you thinking about LSL when you were 20 years old? I know I wasn't.
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samford
they might think about lsl but a lot of people are interested in sick leave and holidays.
Holidays are why a lot of people join the job in the first place and IF they find out that they don't get paid leave they might think twice
If the union can point out these and other things it might make a difference.if the union points out the difference between permanent crew conditions and mam then it throws a spanner in the works.
if we don't do anything the company will continue to reduce us.samford what do you suggest we do?
Twiggs or the company spokesperson talked about the pay only and when i kept asking her about the other points she doesn't come back.
try and look for a post from twiggs about protecting crew pay and conditions
they might think about lsl but a lot of people are interested in sick leave and holidays.
Holidays are why a lot of people join the job in the first place and IF they find out that they don't get paid leave they might think twice
If the union can point out these and other things it might make a difference.if the union points out the difference between permanent crew conditions and mam then it throws a spanner in the works.
if we don't do anything the company will continue to reduce us.samford what do you suggest we do?
Twiggs or the company spokesperson talked about the pay only and when i kept asking her about the other points she doesn't come back.
try and look for a post from twiggs about protecting crew pay and conditions
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Mate, I am giving you credit for thinking. Like I said - I'm not dulling down your ideas, I'm all for constructive thinking.
As I mentioned, the next EBA, the unions should be looking at introducing a tiered system, so at least we can get people into the company rather than outsourced. Yes it means two different lots of conditions, but it is some sort of protection for everyone. We don't loose work over it, they get LSL etc.... it's worth a shot.
What does bother me a little is the fact that team leader (CSS in L/H speak) is open for MAM as well as everyone else. At this stage there isn't much difference to the old system of second senior. But with the regional flying coming to S/H, have to wonder if it will be a dedicated position soon.
As I mentioned, the next EBA, the unions should be looking at introducing a tiered system, so at least we can get people into the company rather than outsourced. Yes it means two different lots of conditions, but it is some sort of protection for everyone. We don't loose work over it, they get LSL etc.... it's worth a shot.
What does bother me a little is the fact that team leader (CSS in L/H speak) is open for MAM as well as everyone else. At this stage there isn't much difference to the old system of second senior. But with the regional flying coming to S/H, have to wonder if it will be a dedicated position soon.
Samford,
The MAM casuals are actually on a higher hourly rate than you and I. They just don't get any band payments.
The MAM casual hourly rate is higher than our highest (I think that is 9 years flying) hourly rate. There is also no monthly cap on how many hours they can work, so some are earning big bucks.
If a MAM casual were to get offered a full time position, they would drop to 1st year pay, which would be a significant decrease in pay. And they wouldn't get our band payments, as these do not apply to new entrants into short haul.
They would get holiday pay, sick pay and staff travel. However to many of these young people making money now is what's important. Not many people at 20 are worried about what they will be doing at 40!!
The MAM casuals are actually on a higher hourly rate than you and I. They just don't get any band payments.
The MAM casual hourly rate is higher than our highest (I think that is 9 years flying) hourly rate. There is also no monthly cap on how many hours they can work, so some are earning big bucks.
If a MAM casual were to get offered a full time position, they would drop to 1st year pay, which would be a significant decrease in pay. And they wouldn't get our band payments, as these do not apply to new entrants into short haul.
They would get holiday pay, sick pay and staff travel. However to many of these young people making money now is what's important. Not many people at 20 are worried about what they will be doing at 40!!
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Well there you go, I guess that compensates for alot then doesn't it. Thanks for that.
So if team Leader becomes a dedicated position (or has that already been decided?), where does that leave the future? CSM would be a matter of time, then there really is no holding back, because they can progress without ever becoming permanent.
Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoy working with alot of them - although I don't really venture too far from home these days.
So if team Leader becomes a dedicated position (or has that already been decided?), where does that leave the future? CSM would be a matter of time, then there really is no holding back, because they can progress without ever becoming permanent.
Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoy working with alot of them - although I don't really venture too far from home these days.
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This makes me laugh as it as if nothing changes but reading the posts here it seems as though someone attempts to come up with an idea to protect our jobs and careers and then a number of you jump on the idea.
personally I think drawing attention to the fact that MAM casuals do not get
PAID SICK LEAVE or PAID HOLIDAYS or STAFF TRAVEL is a good idea.
As far as Twiggs is concerned she never answers a question and as far as i can remember has never posted anything that would look like she is interested in crews T&C's.
In fact here is a post that I made asking Twiggs some interesting questions...which she never answered as usual..
Twiggs,
Your quote… “In the delay in question, one option PRESENTED to the crew was to take minimum rest in Narita and get home as scheduled, and the duty was to be treated as a continuous one (lots of overtime), from sign on in MEL till sign off in SYD.
IT WAS only an option GIVEN, not a request, and was probably declined as the crew in question did not consider that amount of rest to warrant the extra money or the fact that they would probably get home a day late.
The S/H crew THAT were called out, paxed to NRT had 12 hrs off and operated back to SYD, slightly easier than if the L/H crew had operated a delayed service, had less than 12 hrs off, and then operated back to SYD”
Twigs………Your post seems to be extraordinarily well informed and would certainly indicate a source from within the office.If you know someone in L/H ops or were even on the pattern yourself then how do you know what happened with the S/H crew?
Not that I am inferring anything and any resemblance OF YOURSELF to an office employee is purely coincidental I’m sure………and you wonder why some people have doubts about you...
Don't tell me your last cab driver has a next door neighbour who has a brother who works in L/H scheduling and sister who works in S/H ops
NOW I'm sure I know what REAL world Twiggs moves in...
personally I think drawing attention to the fact that MAM casuals do not get
PAID SICK LEAVE or PAID HOLIDAYS or STAFF TRAVEL is a good idea.
As far as Twiggs is concerned she never answers a question and as far as i can remember has never posted anything that would look like she is interested in crews T&C's.
In fact here is a post that I made asking Twiggs some interesting questions...which she never answered as usual..
Twiggs,
Your quote… “In the delay in question, one option PRESENTED to the crew was to take minimum rest in Narita and get home as scheduled, and the duty was to be treated as a continuous one (lots of overtime), from sign on in MEL till sign off in SYD.
IT WAS only an option GIVEN, not a request, and was probably declined as the crew in question did not consider that amount of rest to warrant the extra money or the fact that they would probably get home a day late.
The S/H crew THAT were called out, paxed to NRT had 12 hrs off and operated back to SYD, slightly easier than if the L/H crew had operated a delayed service, had less than 12 hrs off, and then operated back to SYD”
Twigs………Your post seems to be extraordinarily well informed and would certainly indicate a source from within the office.If you know someone in L/H ops or were even on the pattern yourself then how do you know what happened with the S/H crew?
Not that I am inferring anything and any resemblance OF YOURSELF to an office employee is purely coincidental I’m sure………and you wonder why some people have doubts about you...
Don't tell me your last cab driver has a next door neighbour who has a brother who works in L/H scheduling and sister who works in S/H ops
NOW I'm sure I know what REAL world Twiggs moves in...
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Neither do your posts samford.
As Twiggs won't answer this one I take it you are friend of hers or work at the next desk ????
I don't really care who you are but there are a number of people here that I doubt are really crew.
The last thing they would want is for crew to develop an effective strategy to beat the company at their own game.If that is the case it doesn't take much to work out where they are from.
RW came up with an idea ( and thats a lot more than some others)
for protecting us and it's funny who comes in and tries to discredit that idea.
You have to wonder why?
ps Twiggs I'm still waiting for an explanation and interested in how you know so much about that Mel/Nrt trip for both L/H and S/H?
As Twiggs won't answer this one I take it you are friend of hers or work at the next desk ????
I don't really care who you are but there are a number of people here that I doubt are really crew.
The last thing they would want is for crew to develop an effective strategy to beat the company at their own game.If that is the case it doesn't take much to work out where they are from.
RW came up with an idea ( and thats a lot more than some others)
for protecting us and it's funny who comes in and tries to discredit that idea.
You have to wonder why?
ps Twiggs I'm still waiting for an explanation and interested in how you know so much about that Mel/Nrt trip for both L/H and S/H?
Last edited by lowerlobe; 3rd Mar 2007 at 05:03.
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My two bits worth ...
Post happily deleted by RESBOY cause the children in here can't even come up with valid discourse. Just rude, petty, personal attacks.
Last edited by resboy; 4th Mar 2007 at 03:16.
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The company spokesperson has just signed off and did not answer the question...
I just wonder how many people here are not crew at all ?
I just wonder how many people here are not crew at all ?
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Midnight...
How many hours are they required to work?
If the MAM's get as much money as us where does the company save it's money?
Why don't we as RW said point this out in Ads and the fact as Hawk Eye said that they don't stand a snow drop in hells chance of becoming permanent.
I think we have to look at all options to put the heat back on the company..Look at what public opinion is doing about the take over bid.The press is keeping the pressure up because they can smell blood and thats what we have to do with the company.
Do not take the pressure of the sods for a second
How many hours are they required to work?
If the MAM's get as much money as us where does the company save it's money?
Why don't we as RW said point this out in Ads and the fact as Hawk Eye said that they don't stand a snow drop in hells chance of becoming permanent.
I think we have to look at all options to put the heat back on the company..Look at what public opinion is doing about the take over bid.The press is keeping the pressure up because they can smell blood and thats what we have to do with the company.
Do not take the pressure of the sods for a second
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How many casual/part-time/contract staff receive the benefits of full-time employees, not just at Qantas but in any other industry you care to name? The higher hourly rate of pay is to compensate for the loss of continuity of employment and the benefits that accrue from that. As for Staff Travel, next thing some one will suggest that refuellers will receive the benefit as they fuel aircraft.
The world is changing, be that right or wrong, but it has has left Lowerlobe and his few fellow travellers well and truly behind - it's time to move into the 21st century. Some old trogs just don't seem to get it!
The world is changing, be that right or wrong, but it has has left Lowerlobe and his few fellow travellers well and truly behind - it's time to move into the 21st century. Some old trogs just don't seem to get it!
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Ah.......how nice it is to have QF longhaul's number one hater join in the debate on casualisation.
The concept of which was "sold" by the business community to the broader community as a way for them to balance the peaks and troughs in the business cycle by having a proportion of their workforce employed under these "flexible" arrangements.
The changes balert is referring to don't relate to the rest of the world of course but rather john howards changes to the rules re these arrangements.
It wasn't too many years ago [5 or 6] where casual employees HAD to be offered a full time position if their casual employment lasted beyond 12 months as clearly there were positions for full time staff available.
These rules protected the workforce by preventing business from using [the original concept of] casualisation as a way of avoiding paying proper and decent wages and conditions in this country.
john howards changes saw and end to these protections, the results of which have seen businesses like qantas move to casualise massive proportions of their workforce.
The ONLY way to get a qantas flight attendant job is under these arrangements [unless you are prepared to leave the country]
The net effect [beyond ever increasing company profits] of these arrangements is to create a class of people unable to effectively participate in our society.
Banks won't lend to them for cars or houses because they lack security of income. I can't imagine what it must be like to bring up a family under these arrangements.............
Australia was once a fair country where the community universally recognised that as a nation we were wealthy enough for ALL to have a degree of quality of life, even if it was nothing beyond a car, a house and a holiday once a year.
You aren't right about much balert but you are right about the times are a changing.
The electorate ARE a wake up to the lies, deceptions and societal changes that have occured over the last 10 years and the lying little toad in canberra is looking decidedly uncomfortable.
A large percentage of the voting public have children AND serious concerns about the society these children will inherit.
The concept of which was "sold" by the business community to the broader community as a way for them to balance the peaks and troughs in the business cycle by having a proportion of their workforce employed under these "flexible" arrangements.
The changes balert is referring to don't relate to the rest of the world of course but rather john howards changes to the rules re these arrangements.
It wasn't too many years ago [5 or 6] where casual employees HAD to be offered a full time position if their casual employment lasted beyond 12 months as clearly there were positions for full time staff available.
These rules protected the workforce by preventing business from using [the original concept of] casualisation as a way of avoiding paying proper and decent wages and conditions in this country.
john howards changes saw and end to these protections, the results of which have seen businesses like qantas move to casualise massive proportions of their workforce.
The ONLY way to get a qantas flight attendant job is under these arrangements [unless you are prepared to leave the country]
The net effect [beyond ever increasing company profits] of these arrangements is to create a class of people unable to effectively participate in our society.
Banks won't lend to them for cars or houses because they lack security of income. I can't imagine what it must be like to bring up a family under these arrangements.............
Australia was once a fair country where the community universally recognised that as a nation we were wealthy enough for ALL to have a degree of quality of life, even if it was nothing beyond a car, a house and a holiday once a year.
You aren't right about much balert but you are right about the times are a changing.
The electorate ARE a wake up to the lies, deceptions and societal changes that have occured over the last 10 years and the lying little toad in canberra is looking decidedly uncomfortable.
A large percentage of the voting public have children AND serious concerns about the society these children will inherit.
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Ba Lert......
'was surprised to see a post from you tonight Lerty as I thought you would be down at Oxford St suitably attired for the annual parade.
1. Why are your drab posts in bold font?
2.haven't you got something better to do than hang out on a Cabin Crew forum.
YOU ARE NOT /AND NEVER HAVE BEEN CREW.
You sit somewhere on QCA and occasionally see us marshall onto buses out the front of QCC and that makes you an expert on all things related to our culture.
Take the advice of Speedbird.......find a nice quiet spot somewhere else with your cup of Horlicks and Readers Digest and contemplate the future of the Universe.
1. Why are your drab posts in bold font?
2.haven't you got something better to do than hang out on a Cabin Crew forum.
YOU ARE NOT /AND NEVER HAVE BEEN CREW.
You sit somewhere on QCA and occasionally see us marshall onto buses out the front of QCC and that makes you an expert on all things related to our culture.
Take the advice of Speedbird.......find a nice quiet spot somewhere else with your cup of Horlicks and Readers Digest and contemplate the future of the Universe.
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Hey resboy...So mate you are university trained (did you finish your course) and now you fly for J*...( & did you fly with Qantaslink by any chance ?).
No wonder mate you don't have a problem with mam's and other casual but you applied for your job with J*.
Why are you flying for J* when you went to uni? You didn't like the big bad world? or was it a BA that about 10 billion others have and is of no use.
resboy said "Hold the phone love they fly free and stay in posh hotels everyday"
Mate of course crew fly free do you think we should pay to go to work?
"Here you go pal you have a LHR trip that will cost you $3000 plus accomodation"
Exactly what posh hotels do you stay in mate with J* ?
Companies like qf employing casuals gets around laws to protect workers but then people like you go off and apply for lcc's and undermine the rest of us.I reckon there is no point going on about this because its been done already.There is nothing insular about any job we just don't like being white anted
Our job was fine until GD started things like AO ( J* version1) and then J* and now J* international.
But mate I really hope Tiger comes in and does to J* what J* did to QF.Then we will see if you are so happy with people happy to be paid less than you.and don't think it won't happen pal because guys like GD are never happy unless they are cutting costs and if Tiger starts up then he will do it big time with J*.
Thats if J* does not get sold by the new owners and they will definitly want to cut wages to pay for their new toys
No wonder mate you don't have a problem with mam's and other casual but you applied for your job with J*.
Why are you flying for J* when you went to uni? You didn't like the big bad world? or was it a BA that about 10 billion others have and is of no use.
resboy said "Hold the phone love they fly free and stay in posh hotels everyday"
Mate of course crew fly free do you think we should pay to go to work?
"Here you go pal you have a LHR trip that will cost you $3000 plus accomodation"
Exactly what posh hotels do you stay in mate with J* ?
Companies like qf employing casuals gets around laws to protect workers but then people like you go off and apply for lcc's and undermine the rest of us.I reckon there is no point going on about this because its been done already.There is nothing insular about any job we just don't like being white anted
Our job was fine until GD started things like AO ( J* version1) and then J* and now J* international.
But mate I really hope Tiger comes in and does to J* what J* did to QF.Then we will see if you are so happy with people happy to be paid less than you.and don't think it won't happen pal because guys like GD are never happy unless they are cutting costs and if Tiger starts up then he will do it big time with J*.
Thats if J* does not get sold by the new owners and they will definitly want to cut wages to pay for their new toys
Last edited by roamingwolf; 4th Mar 2007 at 03:02.
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Boy i've read soo much garbage on here lately that I've been disgusted by the behaviours of (probably all) of the crew (and non-crew) on here. You should see all the conditions and crap flight attendants go through in Europe (or just the UK for that matter) with the amount of lcc's over there. Fierce competition means low wages and conditions for all of them. Just pray that doesn't happen back in Australia cause there's nothing the F/A's in Europe can do about it - low wages, bad sick pay/holiday pay/etc conditions AND they have to pay for their uniform (couldn't believe when I heard that).
All I say if I was young , fresh out of school/uni/mcdonalds/wherever I would jump at the chance of MAM - the pay is great and I wouldn't care about sick/holiday pay as it's already being paid to me upfront. The job is still great (come back to me in 10 years and then i'll tell you if it still is).
All I say if I was young , fresh out of school/uni/mcdonalds/wherever I would jump at the chance of MAM - the pay is great and I wouldn't care about sick/holiday pay as it's already being paid to me upfront. The job is still great (come back to me in 10 years and then i'll tell you if it still is).