QANTAS - Australia IV

[sydney s/h]

"LH aren't more expensive they are just less flexible"

Here's an example. The flight was delayed out of Melbourne to Narita a few weeks ago - an A330-300.

The LH crew weren't going to achieve their required rest break (just short) in NRT.

They try and negotiate with the LH crew. They say nope.

Phone calls are made to SH crew on home reserve. Paxed up to NRT, day rest and bring back the aircraft.

2 things here -

1. you have to be flexible sometimes to help yourselves in the long term
2. Before you bag the SH crew - The SH crew had no choice. They were on home reserve, they had to legally answer their phone and were within hours to operate.

And there you go. Before you know it SH are now doing NRT flights as of March. Big hour 6 day trips. And very popular.

[lowerlobe]

Monday February 26, 07:03 AM

Jetstar breaking laws: Qantas pilots

Qantas pilots will ask the Federal Court to rule that the airline's subsidiary Jetstar is operating illegally.

The Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) will argue that Jetstar's international services breach a section of the Qantas Sale Act which prevents the national carrier operating international passenger services under another name, News Ltd newspapers report.

The union says the act requires Qantas to conduct scheduled international passenger services under the Qantas name or one that contains the word Qantas.

The union is worried that Qantas could transfer its business to the subsidiary.

"We contend there is an exit strategy to spin Jetstar off," AIPA President Ian Woods said.

I find it interesting that the FAAA is saying that the sky is falling etc...but here is yet another example of the pilots union having a go at the company and trying to defend their members conditions instead of sitting back and saying well guys we know we are X % more expensive than other pilots.

Instead we have our union falling over themselves to do the opposite..


Sydney S/H..Interesting example but I'm curious..How do you know that the company tried to negotiate with the L/H crew.

Where did you get that info from?

[sydney s/h]

Lowerlobe,

i only know as third hand info. I know that in daily life that wouldnt count but on pprune it seems to mean something!

[sydney s/h]

Roamingwolf,

I am really curious as to the statement you made...

"SH allowances in terms of overseas and domestic meal allowances are massively lower than L/H".

You maybe correct. Is any LH'er up for comparing SH to LH allowances for a certain trip?

Let's pick.... a Shanghai trip. I know you dont currently fly there but you used to and probably will again. 4 day trip.

Ok... you sign-on in SYD on day 1 at 1005, arrive in PVG at 2220.

Day 3 you sign-on at 2220 in PVG, arrive day 4 in SYD at 1040.

Can someone advise what kind of allowance you would get in your little envelope at the hotel?

I'll work out our allowance....

[roamingwolf]

sydney s/h
mate I didn't make those figures they were from guardian.

I don't know if they are correct or if guardian was pushing his own idea.

What i'm saying is that we are haering the same softening up speaches from the company and the union.you'd swear it's the same person at times.

But i like this from another thread which i reckon is s/h

I "TRIED" to speak to the FAAA to get info! Was quite curtly told that it wouldn't be appropriate to release content of intentions. But that they were definitely pushing our side of things...I am not impressed with the level of communication from FAAA at all. I and the membership are supposed to be driving the push with the FAAA doing the face to face negotiations. Appears to be going the same way that the Ground Crew EBA did last year! Ground crew were just suddenly told well we've done our best to get you the best deal we can and here it is, we suggest you support it... and that from my then, union!
I just wish things were more "open". Even if I don't like the content, if it is open and transparent to me I will at least feel that I can trust both the union and company management. It would certainly help to squash so much of the galley FM rumour mill.

[Eden99]

roamingwolf's comments

the figues quoted by Guardian are correct.... and any material that Guardian posts here is completely correct, because he/she knows what he/she is talking about.

That fact that Guardian knows what he/she is sayting appears to annoy individuals on here..... and the usual predictable response by those anti-union elements in here who continually bag the FAAA , who have little knowledge about anything...is to then tag Guardian as "arrogant" for example.

roamingwolf you really are pretty slow aren't you mate?? Unfortunately, there is no other way to put it. The FAAA or i haven't said we are overpaid in L/H. As my more diplomatic, posting friend Pegasus stated , the FAAA is pointing out why LH will be eliminated by the Company if a reality check doesn't occur, particualarly with individuals like you roamingwolf.

Qantas is not interested whether the FAAA believes L/H crew are "overpaid" or not....that is irrelevant..... Qantas knows that LH are the most expensive by far, that's why 1200 people have been VR'ed in LH since 2001.

Furthemore roamingwolf, whilst i realise you are fairly limited in your capacity, try at least to not misrepresent what i said. I never said we are overpaid.... i said that Qantas knows we are the most expensive. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE AND I KNOW MOST PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE, EXCEPT YOU OBVIOUSLY.

Lowerlobe, you again start with your anti FAAA mantra. Mate, you would not have any idea about the issues that AIPA is raising in conjunction with Jetstar. You also obviously do not know that AIPA failed in a similar manouvre in the Federal Court last year . What you also do not know is what is happenning privately behing the scenes with the FAAA and AIPA and of course this won't be disclosed publicly because it would be harmful to the interests of crew.

Also, remember for example that the pilots negotiating position has led to their allowances being lower than cabin crew. So please refrain from making comments about which is the more effective union, because you simply haven't got a clue.

In summary, roamingwolf and lowerlobe should concentrate on doing cart exchanges rather than criticising actions of others including the FAAA , when they have no clue.

[Eden99]

gloriais18 comments about LH and SH pay

gloriais18 asserted "A check of LH vs SH CSM basic salary shows that a LH CSM earns 3.95% more than the SH equivalent. (I have 2 pay slips in front of me right now) ".

I take the opportunity to correct this totally wrong assertion.


A SH year 3 CSM earns $1118.98/ week or $58186.96 per year. A LH CSM YEAR 2 earns $74322.53 per year. So a LH CSM earns not 3.95% more than his short haul counterpart, but rather 27.73% more.

Again its a shame that totally inaccurate material is constantly posted in here by individuals who assert it to be gospel and explains why quite often ridiculous statements are made in here by people with no idea.

The 27% more earnt by a LH CSM also highlights my previous post ... it explains why LH crew are being made redundant and being made to use up LONG SERVICE LEAVE. Add in trhe fact that in LH we are paid on the basis of 182.3 hours per 8 weeks as compared to 246 hours for SH and you further realise why the Company is beginning to wipe out LH.

All should realise this and in fact the vast bulk of LH crew do....... all except roamingwolf and lowerlobe..... but of course they are a tiny minority.

[roamingwolf]

Eden

good one mate your a huge help for our side.Why don't you do us a big favor and just join the company .

please tell me that you are not on the faaa negotiating team...PLEASE

I could just laugh at you in a friday night poker game...

cards are dealt...eden.."ok boys I've got a King ,a 4 ,a 6 etc...

the other boys are looking at eden and don't know if they should laugh or cry.

[gloriais18]

I suppose if one is to have this kind of discussion then one needs to compare like with like.

Mr Eden if you care to reread my post of last evening you will note that I used the term "basic salary" as it appears on the said pay slips. You choose to use the term "earnings"

However I defer to your greater knowledge of such matters.

You appear to indictate that SH is paid 246 hours per 8 weeks. Might I suggest that you refer to section 13 of the SH EBA.

You may note that SH are block built to 123 hours per calendar month.
(2 calendar months equals 8.7 weeks) however that figure does not relate to the formula used to calculate basic earnings.

But nevertheless comparing hours for SH domestic operations verses LH trans meridian flying is not comparing like with like.

Mr Wolf might I concur with your sentiment.

[Eden99]

gloriais18

thanks for deferring to my greater knowledge because you unfortunatewly do not understand how the respective pay systems work in LH and SH.

Comparing "basic pay" omn a LH pay slip is irrelevent because it is the guaranteed hours figure of 149 hours which is part of the pay equalisation system in LH which SH does not have.... in SH you are paid on the basis of 123/hrs per calendar month or 246 hours /2 calendar months..approx 8 weeks , like the L/H roster.

So the figures i quoted are completely correct as i understand both pay systems. It helps to understand both if you are going to make correct comparisons.

Hope that helps you gloriais18. Don't be offended because you did not know what you were talking about.

I compared full annual salary of CSM's in both divisions.... like for like.


CHEERS



As for roamingwolf i understand why you are embarrassed and simply can talk about poker. Mate you stick to your poker games and allow people who understand the complex world of Industrial Relations to do their work.

[roamingwolf]

from eden "thanks for deferring to my greater knowledge"

mate i'm choking with laughter here , your right up there with peter foster


PLEASE tell us that YOU are not on the faaa team PLEASE

[twiggs]

Originally Posted by sydney s/h

Here's an example. The flight was delayed out of Melbourne to Narita a few weeks ago - an A330-300.
The LH crew weren't going to achieve their required rest break (just short) in NRT.
They try and negotiate with the LH crew. They say nope.
Phone calls are made to SH crew on home reserve. Paxed up to NRT, day rest and bring back the aircraft.
2 things here -
1. you have to be flexible sometimes to help yourselves in the long term
2. Before you bag the SH crew - The SH crew had no choice. They were on home reserve, they had to legally answer their phone and were within hours to operate.
And there you go. Before you know it SH are now doing NRT flights as of March. Big hour 6 day trips. And very popular.

While I agree with you that in L/H we do need to be flexible, this example you have given is not representative of inflexibility, and it did not result in S/H doing Naritas. (S/H is only doing MEL-NRT-MEL and this is only due to the shortage in the MEL L/H base which SYD L/H have been covering)
On occasions like this when there is disruption, operations tend to give the operating crew the option to continue with their original duty, especially when a change to the pattern would extend the days of the duty and thus get the crew home a day late.
In the delay in question, one option presented to the crew was to take minimum rest in Narita and get home as scheduled, and the duty was to be treated as a continuous one (lots of overtime), from sign on in MEL till sign off in SYD.
It was only an option given, not a request, and was probably declined as the crew in question did not consider that amount of rest to warrant the extra money or the fact that they would probably get home a day late.
The S/H crew that were called out, paxed to NRT had 12 hrs off and operated back to SYD, slightly easier than if the L/H crew had operated a delayed service, had less than 12 hrs off, and then operated back to SYD.

[Eden99]

roamingwolf

glad i made you laugh roamingwolf :-)


You also make me chuckle each time i read your post. You may have your heart in the right place and i inderstand your sentiment, but trust me you have no idea!!

And i'm not trying to be offensive to you :-)

[lowerlobe]

Twiggs,

Your quote… “In the delay in question, one option PRESENTED to the crew was to take minimum rest in Narita and get home as scheduled, and the duty was to be treated as a continuous one (lots of overtime), from sign on in MEL till sign off in SYD.

IT WAS only an option GIVEN, not a request, and was probably declined as the crew in question did not consider that amount of rest to warrant the extra money or the fact that they would probably get home a day late.

The S/H crew THAT were called out, paxed to NRT had 12 hrs off and operated back to SYD, slightly easier than if the L/H crew had operated a delayed service, had less than 12 hrs off, and then operated back to SYD”

Twigs………Your post seems to be extraordinarily well informed and would certainly indicate a source from within the office.

Not that I am inferring anything and any resemblance OF YOURSELF to an office employee is purely coincidental I’m sure………and you wonder why some people have doubts about you...don't tell me your last cab driver has a next door neighbour who has a brother who works in scheduling

[sydney s/h]

Just to inform you....

SH get blocked to 123hrs/month. We get paid for 140hrs/month.

They call it "creep". It covers a few minutes here and there for the month when we are waiting on wheelchairs to the aircraft, late signing off, etc etc...

[Eden99]

sydney s/h

You are completely correct thanks sydney s/h...... when i referred to 123 hours/mth i meant your roster build in S/H.

This of course further demonstrates the point of the disparity of L/H and S/H hours and rates of pay.

What it means is that a L/H crew member is paid roughly 20-30% more than a S/H crew member depending which category you are BUT THE S/H CREW MEMBER IS PAID ON THE BASIS OF 280 HOURS PER 2 CALENDER MONTHS COMPARED TO 182.3 HOURS THAT A L/H CREW MEMBER IS PAID FOR OVER 8 WEEKS . SO A L/H CREW MEMBER CAN WORK UP TO 53% LESS HOURS THAN A S/H CREW MEMBER.

This is why the continual redundancies are being made in L/H and of course there is no secret about these huge productivity gaps between L/H and S/H.

Burying our heads in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist and going into denial mode like roamingwolf suggests will only guarantee the complete destruction of L/H.

It's not a matter of liking the situation... it simply is the situation and must be addressed.

[roamingwolf]

Eden..

Pal,The feeling is mutual.but you as usual stretch what I said.I have never said to ignore facts but just not to PUBLISH them.As usual you bend things for your own purpose

My example of a poker game was too simple for even you but others understand my idea.Mate if you tell the other side they are right then what are you going to bargain with?

I know people in the office look at this and now they are saying the next time we talk to the faaa we know that they agree with us and they are paid more than they need to be.

How about instead of this you start attacking the amount they are paid?

aipa are attacking the company and what are you guys doing....eating muffins

I reckon with you not answering my question it is obvious that the worst case is here and you are on the faaa team.

If you are smart enough to read your own post you have said that we are paid 20 – 30 % more than s/h in otherwords we are overpaid…brilliant strategy

you missed my point about your line ...my greater knowledge...it's your arrogance that is the problem.I have talked to you mate and there is no way this idea of your greater knowledge came across in our talk in fact the complete opposite

[Eden99]

roamingwolf

my so called arrogance is not the problem. you label me that because i continually expose the stupidity of your remarks.

me confirming or denying whether i am an elected FAAA official would serve no purpose because this is an anonymous forum and my response to you can not be tested .

You again misrepresent what i have said, and in fact, you continually misrepresent what i have said. I have never said we are overpaid in LH , in fact i dont think we are overpaid.

But again that is not the point!!! and you simply don't get it. Qantas knows it is employing S/H Australian Airlines, Jetstar and overseas based crew at between 30-60% cheaper than us in LH. That is a fact and there is no secret about that.

Attacking executives salaries is something that the FAAA and all other Qantas unions do continually...however that does not dissuade from Qantas moving to get rid of us for cheaper alternatives that it has at its fingertips.

THAT IS THE POINT!

AIPA yesterday in the media stated that they were not against the take over of Qantas as such. What do you say to that?

The FAAA on the other hand is strongly against the takeover.

However, in the end comparing us with pilots is totally irrelevant and again highlights your naivety of industrial matters. LH crew can be replaced in 5 days as the Company demonstrated in 2004..... there are thousands lined up to join Jetstar International.

Rather than continually venting your anger and spleen in here.... what do you actually suggest.... you continually carp in here but never suggest A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE.

Attacking pay rates of Qantas executives doesn't alter a damn thing..... don't you get that??? THEY DON'T CARE!

Also the federal government has enacted new laws to allow Qantas to destroy conditions...that is not the fault of the FAAA.

You need to wake up to the realities of Australian industrial relations in 2007. The same FAAA and its leadership that you attack in here continually because you are ignorant, is the FAAA that has given LH cabin crew the best conditions and pay in Australia and one of the highest in the world.

So i suggest to you roamingwolf, before you attack others as arrogant, you first start to display some understandiong of these issues and furthermore lets see some practical and viable suggestions from you. Otherwise stick to your cart exchanges mate.. (AN ARROGANT COMMENT I KNOW )

[roamingwolf]

Mate

1 You say we are paid between 30 and 60 % more than other QF crew and then you say you are not saying we are overpaid...mate think about that for a second...the company sees your post and then tells you that l/h are overpaid and whats more you agree with them...if you see a beer for 30 - 60 % more than another you are saying the expensive beer is overpriced....If you walk into a holden dealer and say the same car is 30% less in a rockdale dealership you are saying it is 30% overpriced...You don't get it do you mate ....and you are representing us...

You don't walk into the room with the company and say..ok we are paid more compared to others...you have given the game away before they have even scored their first try.mate what can you say to argue your point after that.

2 I don't care or need you mate to tell me who you are.I know

3 Mate i didn't post the bit about the pilots but if you want to mention it AIPA is taking the company to court saying that the operation of Jetstar international is against the qantas act .This protects the pilots jobs..they are doing something about their members conditions not saying..welll we are more expensive than others...damn we have to give in...

4 Pal...You asked for my suggestion and here it is ...be more agressive just as you promised at the St George Rowers club...where has that venom gone?

Don't say in a public forum that we all know the company looks at and say WE ARE PAID MORE THAN OTHER CREW IN THE GROUP FOR THE SAME JOB

If you give a dispensation for something like the jfk shuttle get a tradeoff..IN WRITING not some airy fairy vague we are doing something to be more flexible crap to protect our jobs

attack is the best form of defence not to bend over and say be gentle

tell them that os crew do not have our cost of living and if management want to live on Thai pay in sydney they can.

You like being on the radiio and other interviews so tell them about things like the immoral bonus's that GD and others give themselves.Put the pressure on them mate .make them answer questions for once.

Don't stand up at the meeting and say if I have not scared you today I'm not doing my job...that was bs ..mate your job is not to scare crew but represent us

[And5678]

Chill Pill!

Oh God, here we go again....

Back to the clubhouse for long islands teas while the girls slog it out on centre court!