QANTAS - Australia
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AW`s Brief
AW(akaThe Fat Contoller)is like all QF management a "short termist"
Qantas is a top down company where Dixon dishes out the orders and the minions do as they are told..without question
AW has a family and ambition and realises she has a 3 to 5 tenure.
So she gets in there, implements the grand plan, makes as many bucks as possible and buggers off.
She is nothing more than an eloquent Iron Fist in a Velvet glove.
She does NOT give a rats rectum about morale because it doesnt exist.
Fear and intimidation are the only management tools.
Just ask the CSM who told a joke about Dixon in a briefing...the brownshirts came down on him like a ton of bricks.
The Irony of it all?...Dixon IS a bloody joke!!!
Qantas is a top down company where Dixon dishes out the orders and the minions do as they are told..without question
AW has a family and ambition and realises she has a 3 to 5 tenure.
So she gets in there, implements the grand plan, makes as many bucks as possible and buggers off.
She is nothing more than an eloquent Iron Fist in a Velvet glove.
She does NOT give a rats rectum about morale because it doesnt exist.
Fear and intimidation are the only management tools.
Just ask the CSM who told a joke about Dixon in a briefing...the brownshirts came down on him like a ton of bricks.
The Irony of it all?...Dixon IS a bloody joke!!!
Last edited by DEFCON4; 19th Nov 2006 at 04:27. Reason: spelling
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ahhhh
it is back. thanks twigg. so what you are saying is only certain long range sectors have a right to have more then whatever you regard as minimum rest.
then you end up doing trips like our kiwi friends lax back then up to asia and back with one day slips.
LL the A380 will be on the mel/syd -Lax and LHR via sin/hkg sectors. SFO/JFK/ will continue to have the 747. Fra is another story. rumor has it the yields aren't good enough and may move to J* by 2010.
then you end up doing trips like our kiwi friends lax back then up to asia and back with one day slips.
LL the A380 will be on the mel/syd -Lax and LHR via sin/hkg sectors. SFO/JFK/ will continue to have the 747. Fra is another story. rumor has it the yields aren't good enough and may move to J* by 2010.
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I didn't mention min rest after long range, only slipping formula.
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try doing a few back to back Joburgs and then tell me whether the 46 hrs is ..........."difficult to justify".
Twiggs.........go for a wander up on QCC/4-there is a spare office up there next to AW-with people like you giving advice-we're better off packing our bags now and working for Kingfisher Airlines!!!!
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What I am referring to is the 1 in three, then 1 in 2 , must be greater than 46hrs.
It has nothing to do with JoBergs as they are predominantly 1 slip trips.
(Although the minimum rest in JOBerg is only 36 hrs anyway)
Last edited by twiggs; 19th Nov 2006 at 04:59. Reason: add min rest for JoBerg
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The latest I've heard is that:
-Seniority for bidding will go
-Divisor will go up to around 220-240
Apparently, removing seniority for bidding will allow for a more effective utilisation of crew and subsequently allow for the divisor to be raised. So instead of being able to bid for all NRT and your days off, you'll be allocated a "fair share" of trips and days off (which will maximise you're duty hours).
Again, this is just port gossip, but it came from a reasonably good source who has been reliable with information in the past.
-Seniority for bidding will go
-Divisor will go up to around 220-240
Apparently, removing seniority for bidding will allow for a more effective utilisation of crew and subsequently allow for the divisor to be raised. So instead of being able to bid for all NRT and your days off, you'll be allocated a "fair share" of trips and days off (which will maximise you're duty hours).
Again, this is just port gossip, but it came from a reasonably good source who has been reliable with information in the past.
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Certainly ,bidding without seniority is one of the possibilities that "Carmen" is capable of and it can do it in a number of ways.
However,the seniority issue has little to do with the divisor or the generation of trips but is just another way of annoying senior crew as the same trips to NRT still have to be done.However,it would make the junior crew happy especially the ones that are coming back from LHR if they have that to look foward to.
So basically Ozskipper up there in the old dart is opening the old can of worms regarding seniority again..oh well it has to come up now and again I suppose and if someone is going to tell us we get too much in the way of allowances or slip time we might as well hear this one again
However,the seniority issue has little to do with the divisor or the generation of trips but is just another way of annoying senior crew as the same trips to NRT still have to be done.However,it would make the junior crew happy especially the ones that are coming back from LHR if they have that to look foward to.
So basically Ozskipper up there in the old dart is opening the old can of worms regarding seniority again..oh well it has to come up now and again I suppose and if someone is going to tell us we get too much in the way of allowances or slip time we might as well hear this one again
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Work Family Balance
Remove the bid system and sick leave will become endemic.
Many flight attendants who both fly and have children rely on the bid system to organize their lives.
For these people(and there are a great number)removal of seniority/bid system would create absolute chaos and hardship.
But then again the Black Widow and the Fat Contoller dont care.
Many flight attendants who both fly and have children rely on the bid system to organize their lives.
For these people(and there are a great number)removal of seniority/bid system would create absolute chaos and hardship.
But then again the Black Widow and the Fat Contoller dont care.
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Long Service Leave
Just received another letter from the company about directed LSL, (did'nt we just have about 400 crew leave with a VR package??!!), this time from the Tarantula, and thoughtfully some application forms. How considerate of her and how on earth did she know I was running short of toilet paper as the CC Ops manual is down to the last few pages??!! 
Believe the poms during WW2 had a night time torpedo raid on Taranto...he..he...heee
Believe the poms during WW2 had a night time torpedo raid on Taranto...he..he...heee
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Yes it is great isn't it Schlonghaul,
I'm waiting for someone here to suggest that we forego a certain amount of our accrued LSL in our negotiations with the company so as to retain our flying.
The part about the LSL that staff have accrued is that it is not costing the company anything as long as it is on paper.They are asking us to use it so they are paying us for it at any rate and as you pointed out they have just had around 400 take VR and now they still say they have too much crew.
The only reason I can see that the company has to reduce the level of accrued LSL is if they are intending to sell the company or at least a large portion of it and want the paper value of QF to involve as little inherited debt.In other words to get as much for the company as possible they want to reduce any unpaid debt.
If they have no intention of selling the company or altering the level of ownership then whether you take your LSL now or next year is of no consequence to the company as long as they have the crew to meet operational requirements at that point.
I'm waiting for someone here to suggest that we forego a certain amount of our accrued LSL in our negotiations with the company so as to retain our flying.
The part about the LSL that staff have accrued is that it is not costing the company anything as long as it is on paper.They are asking us to use it so they are paying us for it at any rate and as you pointed out they have just had around 400 take VR and now they still say they have too much crew.
The only reason I can see that the company has to reduce the level of accrued LSL is if they are intending to sell the company or at least a large portion of it and want the paper value of QF to involve as little inherited debt.In other words to get as much for the company as possible they want to reduce any unpaid debt.
If they have no intention of selling the company or altering the level of ownership then whether you take your LSL now or next year is of no consequence to the company as long as they have the crew to meet operational requirements at that point.
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Certainly ,bidding without seniority is one of the possibilities that "Carmen" is capable of and it can do it in a number of ways.
So basically Ozskipper up there in the old dart is opening the old can of worms regarding seniority again..oh well it has to come up now and again I suppose and if someone is going to tell us we get too much in the way of allowances or slip time we might as well hear this one again
So basically Ozskipper up there in the old dart is opening the old can of worms regarding seniority again..oh well it has to come up now and again I suppose and if someone is going to tell us we get too much in the way of allowances or slip time we might as well hear this one again
The above information came from a discussion I had while in a slip port with an Australian based crew member I've flown with on numerous occasions who is seemingly very well connected. Whether there is seniority or not is completely irrelevant to me to be honest - I knew what I was getting myself in for when I joined Qantas.
Personally, I still think it's a bit unfair on junior crew when there is no possibility of our global seniority rising in the next few years, but hey it's a personal opinion and I'm just sharing what I've heard lately.
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Junior Burger
I have been junior in my category for 18 years...I live with it.
Juniority,seniority..so what? I have a job,my super is growing and I earn good bucks.
I accept my opportunity for promotion is non existant..big deal.
Change what you have and what works and these management swine will use it against you.
They have done it time after time and we have helped them do it.
We have been complicit in our own demise because of our selfishness,stupidity and total lack of unity.
The stuff that masquerades as opinion in this forum only verifies that.
We all do the same job and thats where the cohesion ends.
In western society the self comes first and we get done over because of it.
Eventually everyone leaves and seniority improves by attrition.
Junior now..senior tomorrow..gee I wish we had kept the bid system and seniority.
Dont think short term like the jerks you work for......you WILL regret it..fact
Juniority,seniority..so what? I have a job,my super is growing and I earn good bucks.
I accept my opportunity for promotion is non existant..big deal.
Change what you have and what works and these management swine will use it against you.
They have done it time after time and we have helped them do it.
We have been complicit in our own demise because of our selfishness,stupidity and total lack of unity.
The stuff that masquerades as opinion in this forum only verifies that.
We all do the same job and thats where the cohesion ends.
In western society the self comes first and we get done over because of it.
Eventually everyone leaves and seniority improves by attrition.
Junior now..senior tomorrow..gee I wish we had kept the bid system and seniority.
Dont think short term like the jerks you work for......you WILL regret it..fact
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From today's Sydney Morning Hearld
Jetstar's aim to have a 40 per cent lower cost base than Qantas will be primarily helped by the lower wages and working conditions offered to its staff.
Jetstar long-haul flight attendants are expected to work around 30 per cent more hours than their Qantas counterparts and earn a base pay of $32,500 a year, around 35 per cent lower than Qantas crews.
They also are entitled to less sick and long service leave, and have their redundancy provisions capped at 16 weeks pay. This compares with 95 weeks for Qantas flight attendants. Jetstar long-haul crews, unlike Qantas crews, also do not have minimum standards of accommodation stipulated in their labour agreements. The airline is also looking to tighten its relationship with Qantas's 44.5 per cent Singapore Jetstar franchise in order to cut costs.
Jetstar's aim to have a 40 per cent lower cost base than Qantas will be primarily helped by the lower wages and working conditions offered to its staff.
Jetstar long-haul flight attendants are expected to work around 30 per cent more hours than their Qantas counterparts and earn a base pay of $32,500 a year, around 35 per cent lower than Qantas crews.
They also are entitled to less sick and long service leave, and have their redundancy provisions capped at 16 weeks pay. This compares with 95 weeks for Qantas flight attendants. Jetstar long-haul crews, unlike Qantas crews, also do not have minimum standards of accommodation stipulated in their labour agreements. The airline is also looking to tighten its relationship with Qantas's 44.5 per cent Singapore Jetstar franchise in order to cut costs.
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Butterfield8,
Well said and just like those who say our slipping formula cannot be justified we will end up doing something like...
SYD/MEL/ADL/SIN...one night slip
SIN/ADL/MEL...one night slip
MEL/ADL/SIN....one night slip
SIN/ADL/BNE...one night slip....etc...etc...etc...Wouldn' that be fun
If you give the company one cm they will want 10 cm.They are addicted to taking and we can only negotiate from a position of strength.
To appease an aggressor will only make the aggressor more aggressive. (try saying that after a drink or two)
Well said and just like those who say our slipping formula cannot be justified we will end up doing something like...
SYD/MEL/ADL/SIN...one night slip
SIN/ADL/MEL...one night slip
MEL/ADL/SIN....one night slip
SIN/ADL/BNE...one night slip....etc...etc...etc...Wouldn' that be fun
If you give the company one cm they will want 10 cm.They are addicted to taking and we can only negotiate from a position of strength.
To appease an aggressor will only make the aggressor more aggressive. (try saying that after a drink or two)
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Leanee7,
I agree with you 100% but you are missing the entire point of the exercise .
J* is not about a better deal for the punter as advertised airfares show and as it is only contributing 1.6% to total group profit , it is not about the share holder.
The entire purpose of J* is about lowering the pay and conditions of S/H and L/H QF staff ,he tried first with AO and did not get it right but learnt from his mistakes and gave birth to J*.Therefore Darth does not give a rats backside about the inconvenienced traveller ,he is only looking at the benefit gained from staff lowering their T & C's to retain their job.
What I would love to see is another airline starting up where the board and other senior managers are paid substantially less than QF's board.Then Darth would have to explain why he and the others are paid more unfortunately he has a monopoly so this is just wishfull thinking.
I agree with you 100% but you are missing the entire point of the exercise .
J* is not about a better deal for the punter as advertised airfares show and as it is only contributing 1.6% to total group profit , it is not about the share holder.
The entire purpose of J* is about lowering the pay and conditions of S/H and L/H QF staff ,he tried first with AO and did not get it right but learnt from his mistakes and gave birth to J*.Therefore Darth does not give a rats backside about the inconvenienced traveller ,he is only looking at the benefit gained from staff lowering their T & C's to retain their job.
What I would love to see is another airline starting up where the board and other senior managers are paid substantially less than QF's board.Then Darth would have to explain why he and the others are paid more unfortunately he has a monopoly so this is just wishfull thinking.
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Butterfield8,
Well said and just like those who say our slipping formula cannot be justified we will end up doing something like...
SYD/MEL/ADL/SIN...one night slip
SIN/ADL/MEL...one night slip
MEL/ADL/SIN....one night slip
SIN/ADL/BNE...one night slip....etc...etc...etc...Wouldn' that be fun
Well said and just like those who say our slipping formula cannot be justified we will end up doing something like...
SYD/MEL/ADL/SIN...one night slip
SIN/ADL/MEL...one night slip
MEL/ADL/SIN....one night slip
SIN/ADL/BNE...one night slip....etc...etc...etc...Wouldn' that be fun
What I am trying to say is that the best way of retaining a slipping formula, is to adjust it so that it is based on giving additional rest when it is needed.
Under our present system, we end up with trips like this:
SYD-DRW (short day sector) 24 hrs
DRW-SIN (another short day sector) 48hrs
SIN-DRW-ADL-MEL (night multi sector) 24 hrs
MEL-SIN (arduous day sector) 24 hrs
SIN-SYD
this trip does not give the long slip when it is needed, ie in MEL after the night multi sector.
The only way to argue for a slipping formula is to base the argument on the need for additional rest in a multi slip trip like this in an appropriate place.
If you are going to criticize my posts, don't read into them what is not there in the first place.
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Twiggs,
It is you that does not read and more importantly understand or care to understand posts by others.
I did not misunderstand you ..just re read what you have posted...
"will be very hard to retain as it applies regardless of the fatigue factor of the previous sectors."
Also the minimum length of it being 46hrs is probably difficult to justify."
You have just said the current slipping formula will be hard to retain regardless of fatigue and that 2 local nights which you have eqauted to 46 hours is difficult to justify.. So you don't believe that we need the 1,1,2 formula and the company has the right to not only question it but take it away. That is where I extrapolated my post regarding a possible trip with the 2 local nights removed.
The company adheres to the current slipping formula just not to the previous sector but also to what is the cheapest port to slip the crew.The company does not care whether or not you have a good nights sleep or whether you want to catch up with friends in Mel or wherever.The company is not a travel agency and is only interested in getting the maximum benefit from any rules and regulations they are forced to adhere to.
If we give away the 1,1,2 slipping pattern the company will introduce what they want and since there is no real protection from CASA guess what patterns we will get? Exactly what I posted and people like you will say but we need rest!!!!
As `it stands the company will not give you your 2 local nights because you have had a long day but because it is cheaper in some ports than others.
While we are on the subject and if you are indeed currently employed as cabin crew why did you suggest that the jump seats were perfectly suitable for crew rest.If you are so interested in re arranging our slipping formula to have suitable rest when we need it then it seems at odds with your sentiment.
I can see you emailing the moderator about this to get this post deleted as well
As far as reading into your posts is concerned only you know what you are thinking so don't spit the dummy in here.......................
is that clear enough
It is you that does not read and more importantly understand or care to understand posts by others.
I did not misunderstand you ..just re read what you have posted...
"will be very hard to retain as it applies regardless of the fatigue factor of the previous sectors."
Also the minimum length of it being 46hrs is probably difficult to justify."
You have just said the current slipping formula will be hard to retain regardless of fatigue and that 2 local nights which you have eqauted to 46 hours is difficult to justify.. So you don't believe that we need the 1,1,2 formula and the company has the right to not only question it but take it away. That is where I extrapolated my post regarding a possible trip with the 2 local nights removed.
The company adheres to the current slipping formula just not to the previous sector but also to what is the cheapest port to slip the crew.The company does not care whether or not you have a good nights sleep or whether you want to catch up with friends in Mel or wherever.The company is not a travel agency and is only interested in getting the maximum benefit from any rules and regulations they are forced to adhere to.
If we give away the 1,1,2 slipping pattern the company will introduce what they want and since there is no real protection from CASA guess what patterns we will get? Exactly what I posted and people like you will say but we need rest!!!!
As `it stands the company will not give you your 2 local nights because you have had a long day but because it is cheaper in some ports than others.
While we are on the subject and if you are indeed currently employed as cabin crew why did you suggest that the jump seats were perfectly suitable for crew rest.If you are so interested in re arranging our slipping formula to have suitable rest when we need it then it seems at odds with your sentiment.
I can see you emailing the moderator about this to get this post deleted as well
As far as reading into your posts is concerned only you know what you are thinking so don't spit the dummy in here.......................
is that clear enough
Last edited by lowerlobe; 21st Nov 2006 at 03:05.
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I am only suggesting that we must try to negotiate an agreement that gives sufficient rest when appropriate, not an agreement that can be utilised by the company to give rest when it suits them.
My comment about the crew rest seats was tongue in cheek, but I will refrain from such irony in the future, as it is lost on the pack of wolves that roam in here.
By the way, the slipping formula dictates 46 hrs minimum, not 2 local nights.
It seems that you don't even know what is in our EBA, so how on earth is any rational debate or negotiation going to take place if you don't even know what you are talking about.
My comment about the crew rest seats was tongue in cheek, but I will refrain from such irony in the future, as it is lost on the pack of wolves that roam in here.
By the way, the slipping formula dictates 46 hrs minimum, not 2 local nights.
It seems that you don't even know what is in our EBA, so how on earth is any rational debate or negotiation going to take place if you don't even know what you are talking about.
Last edited by twiggs; 21st Nov 2006 at 03:01. Reason: added last paragraph