QANTAS - Australia
Join Date: Oct 2006
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.....round and round we go
Talk about a positive vibe.
We all got on, the manager would come into briefings, sit on the lounge with us and talk to us before sign on,support as when required, occasionally attend "drinkies" with all of us at the Queens Hotel at Mt Lawley, organise social events and....................
.......................HE FLEW WITH US ON OPERATIONAL TRIPS.
Thats where this experiment has all gone wrong.
The people in the orifice have no idea of what we actually do OR how stuffed we feel; at the end of a 10hr QF 4 sector..........no wonder they could not answer their innane questions!!!!
Can we bring back Managers who fly OR have flown ?
Sure .....QF will never give us wimps who'll just roll over to our every command. BUT, watch "engagement" go up if we get people who support us and not their KPI's.
But then again I'm living in "fairy land".
This is a brave new world.
GREED IS GOOD.
........just ask any QF shareholder.
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The 'cancer' of any organisation is the KPI system itself - or more specifically, the way QF have structured the KPI system.
Now...don't get me wrong...I have nothing against rewarding deserving individuals with a financial (or other) bonus. In fact, it's a great tool for rewarding and motivating managers.
However...the KPI's themselves are flawed. The bonus is given simply for reaching the KPI - HOW that is reached is irrelevant, and that's the issue I think for a lot of us. Like most reasonable folk, I have nothing wrong with the idea of a manager doing their job and its' difficult tasks like managing sick leave, etc. The practice, however, is the key and their people skills to manage said tasks.
What I'd like to see is the KPI's linked to engagement from the crew, and 'upward feedback' scoring of that manager from line crew in areas like people skills, etc. I can just see the look of horror on the faces of some managerial individuals right now.
Could you just imagine - the 'two pronged' KPI - the figures AND the people? Lots more reporting, but a hell of a lot more say in the 'true' performance of that manager. If the FA's can do it to the CSM's, then why not keep the flow moving upward??
Now...don't get me wrong...I have nothing against rewarding deserving individuals with a financial (or other) bonus. In fact, it's a great tool for rewarding and motivating managers.
However...the KPI's themselves are flawed. The bonus is given simply for reaching the KPI - HOW that is reached is irrelevant, and that's the issue I think for a lot of us. Like most reasonable folk, I have nothing wrong with the idea of a manager doing their job and its' difficult tasks like managing sick leave, etc. The practice, however, is the key and their people skills to manage said tasks.
What I'd like to see is the KPI's linked to engagement from the crew, and 'upward feedback' scoring of that manager from line crew in areas like people skills, etc. I can just see the look of horror on the faces of some managerial individuals right now.
Could you just imagine - the 'two pronged' KPI - the figures AND the people? Lots more reporting, but a hell of a lot more say in the 'true' performance of that manager. If the FA's can do it to the CSM's, then why not keep the flow moving upward??
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the Rot
Winnie the fog horn started all of this and bought with her the concept of dobbing .She wanted a network of informers to let her know what was happening .
The rot has just continued with a number of crew and now managers continueing this trend.It is just like Germany during the 30's and 40's when people would dob neighbours and others in to gain favour with the people in charge.
The rot has just continued with a number of crew and now managers continueing this trend.It is just like Germany during the 30's and 40's when people would dob neighbours and others in to gain favour with the people in charge.
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It seems as though the company is not only willing but also able to destroy any enjoyment a crew member might have in their job.
then they want you to go to work and be all bubbly and friendly to the customers with clause 11's flying all over the place which is a really strange logic when you think about it.
Very strange
then they want you to go to work and be all bubbly and friendly to the customers with clause 11's flying all over the place which is a really strange logic when you think about it.
Very strange
Join Date: Sep 2005
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re held back onboard a/c ex hnl
does management have a legal right to hold crew
onboard an aircraft after duty complete?
if not, can crew call on the airport police to
remove the managers so as to allow crew to
leave and go home?
onboard an aircraft after duty complete?
if not, can crew call on the airport police to
remove the managers so as to allow crew to
leave and go home?
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Management
Have read with interest the comments regarding management tactics toward FA's and suggest that you all pay them too much attention. Don't tell them anything, don't trust any of them, don't ever believe that if you do them a favour that they will reciprocate.
You need to change your tactics, and you can start by complaining about THEM. Expose all their excesses, to the newspapers, CASA, the FAAA, the Government and opposition parties, federal and state. If anyone in QF management looks at you sideways lodge a complaint to their supervisor and stick by your guns. Management, for far too long have been getting away with all sorts of abuse against FA's and it's only going to stop if you all stick together and show them that you have all had enough of the mistreatment.
Like them or loathe them the FAAA is all you have and if they spend any amount of time "fighting" in-house matters, the less time they have to concentrate on matters that concern all FA's. Leave the politics to the ballot box. Your common enemy is QF management and apathy. Get involved and take the mongrels on. Rats in the ranks and quislings are nothing new, you must know who they are and be able to convince them to change their tune.
Co-operation with any of the industrial groups within Qantas has never been a priority with management so don't even try and in the present climate "pre-emptive" attacks are your best defence collectively. On an individual basis, there are remedies in common law to protect you from abuse, threats, intimidation and harassment from any person. Look them up and use them because the longer you allow management to get away with the abuse the longer they will continue to treat you like animals.
It's all up to you, collectively and individually.
You need to change your tactics, and you can start by complaining about THEM. Expose all their excesses, to the newspapers, CASA, the FAAA, the Government and opposition parties, federal and state. If anyone in QF management looks at you sideways lodge a complaint to their supervisor and stick by your guns. Management, for far too long have been getting away with all sorts of abuse against FA's and it's only going to stop if you all stick together and show them that you have all had enough of the mistreatment.
Like them or loathe them the FAAA is all you have and if they spend any amount of time "fighting" in-house matters, the less time they have to concentrate on matters that concern all FA's. Leave the politics to the ballot box. Your common enemy is QF management and apathy. Get involved and take the mongrels on. Rats in the ranks and quislings are nothing new, you must know who they are and be able to convince them to change their tune.
Co-operation with any of the industrial groups within Qantas has never been a priority with management so don't even try and in the present climate "pre-emptive" attacks are your best defence collectively. On an individual basis, there are remedies in common law to protect you from abuse, threats, intimidation and harassment from any person. Look them up and use them because the longer you allow management to get away with the abuse the longer they will continue to treat you like animals.
It's all up to you, collectively and individually.
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It's no joke: Qantas cabin crew interrogated
November 6, 2006 - 3:52PM
AdvertisementAdvertisement
A rude joke amongst Qantas cabin crew led to airline management intimidating flight attendants and interrogating them four days after the joke was made, a union says.
A Flight Attendants' Association of Australia memo says a group of Qantas cabin crew managers met an inbound flight from Honolulu on Friday, October 27 - four days after the joke had been made by a flight attendant during a staff briefing.
The union says cabin crew were then split up and interrogated.
"While disembarking our passengers we became aware of managers on the aero-bridge with more and more arriving as we helped wheelchair passengers," the memo says.
"When we had completed getting all our passengers off the aircraft, our customer service manager was taken away and we were informed that we were going to be interviewed on the aircraft in relation to an allegation that took place prior to our departure four days earlier."
"Tired, uninformed and unrepresented, we were isolated in different parts of the aircraft ... and read prepared questions.
"All of the crew involved I saw when we were released were shocked, dismayed and disorientated."
Qantas was approached for a response to the allegations but is yet to make a comment. Neither the union nor Qantas has revealed the nature of the joke.
The union says it has expressed outrage over the behaviour of management.
"In our view, this type of behaviour is more suited to Stalinist regimes and not modern workplaces," the memo says.
"Despite our representations, cabin crew management have stood by their conduct and have not ruled out further aircraft raids in the future."
AAP
http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/it...661603594.html
November 6, 2006 - 3:52PM
AdvertisementAdvertisement
A rude joke amongst Qantas cabin crew led to airline management intimidating flight attendants and interrogating them four days after the joke was made, a union says.
A Flight Attendants' Association of Australia memo says a group of Qantas cabin crew managers met an inbound flight from Honolulu on Friday, October 27 - four days after the joke had been made by a flight attendant during a staff briefing.
The union says cabin crew were then split up and interrogated.
"While disembarking our passengers we became aware of managers on the aero-bridge with more and more arriving as we helped wheelchair passengers," the memo says.
"When we had completed getting all our passengers off the aircraft, our customer service manager was taken away and we were informed that we were going to be interviewed on the aircraft in relation to an allegation that took place prior to our departure four days earlier."
"Tired, uninformed and unrepresented, we were isolated in different parts of the aircraft ... and read prepared questions.
"All of the crew involved I saw when we were released were shocked, dismayed and disorientated."
Qantas was approached for a response to the allegations but is yet to make a comment. Neither the union nor Qantas has revealed the nature of the joke.
The union says it has expressed outrage over the behaviour of management.
"In our view, this type of behaviour is more suited to Stalinist regimes and not modern workplaces," the memo says.
"Despite our representations, cabin crew management have stood by their conduct and have not ruled out further aircraft raids in the future."
AAP
http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/it...661603594.html
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I've got to say that after flying for around 30 years I'm not surprised at what happened.
A few of you might remember the take off towels incident a number of years ago when the 21 crew was asked if they would give towels out when a semi official dispute was going on regarding take off towels.Management cornered the last crew to leave Sydney on a Friday night if memory serves me correctly.
Those in the office normally have an inflated opinion of their importance and do not handle jokes regarding their position with any humility.I don't know what the joke was or who it was directed at but this is not the first time something like this has happened and it won't be the last.
The part that I would like to know is who let them know about the joke.Was it a visitor lurking around the briefing rooms or was it one of the crew in the actual room.With all the glass it would be hard for someone to lurk close enough to hear and maybe it was someone on the crew..
A few of you might remember the take off towels incident a number of years ago when the 21 crew was asked if they would give towels out when a semi official dispute was going on regarding take off towels.Management cornered the last crew to leave Sydney on a Friday night if memory serves me correctly.
Those in the office normally have an inflated opinion of their importance and do not handle jokes regarding their position with any humility.I don't know what the joke was or who it was directed at but this is not the first time something like this has happened and it won't be the last.
The part that I would like to know is who let them know about the joke.Was it a visitor lurking around the briefing rooms or was it one of the crew in the actual room.With all the glass it would be hard for someone to lurk close enough to hear and maybe it was someone on the crew..
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loyalty
thats exactly right, casuals do not have any loyalty to the qf brand.
when will mr qantas realise this?
hence why over 100 mam casuals have resigned this year (inc me!)
on another note are they hiring even more? This advertisement was recently put on seek
Our client is a major player in the airline industry and requires 5 experienced Recruitment Professionals.
You will be assisting with running group assessment centres and 1 on 1 interviews for Cabin Crew staff.
The dates you will be required are 16th, 17th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd November, this includes work on a Sunday. On most days you will be required for full days, and potentially to stay back if need be, so we are looking for flexibilty.
We are looking for senior recruitment professionals with extensive experience in behavioural style interviewing. The pay rate of the role is a flat hourly rate of $35. Corporate presentation is essential to your success in this role as the client has a strict dress code policy for both candidate's and assessors.
when will mr qantas realise this?
hence why over 100 mam casuals have resigned this year (inc me!)
on another note are they hiring even more? This advertisement was recently put on seek
Casual Interviewer/Assessors
Our client is a major player in the airline industry and requires 5 experienced Recruitment Professionals.
You will be assisting with running group assessment centres and 1 on 1 interviews for Cabin Crew staff.
The dates you will be required are 16th, 17th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd November, this includes work on a Sunday. On most days you will be required for full days, and potentially to stay back if need be, so we are looking for flexibilty.
We are looking for senior recruitment professionals with extensive experience in behavioural style interviewing. The pay rate of the role is a flat hourly rate of $35. Corporate presentation is essential to your success in this role as the client has a strict dress code policy for both candidate's and assessors.
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For the benefit of the great unwashed..
What is a clause 11 ?
And does anybody know the joke or what was said in the crew breifing that landed the CC on the QF 3/4. ( PM me if you don't want post it)
If its a good joke or line I will use it daily !
What is a clause 11 ?
And does anybody know the joke or what was said in the crew breifing that landed the CC on the QF 3/4. ( PM me if you don't want post it)
If its a good joke or line I will use it daily !
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Clause Eleven
This is a clause in our award that relates to disciplinary action.
When applied to its full extent it can lead to dismissal.
It has been use over the last few years to "manage"undesirable individuals out of the business.
Invariably it is also used to threaten and intimidate....with fairly predictable results.
Qantas has never won a clause 11 in the AIRC.
Usually a fairly generous offer is made so that the individual is disinclined to return.
The companys own protocols are never followed.
The CCTMs are not very conversant with the finer points of Clause 11...hence their unequalled lose rate.
The current management regime is based on threat and intimidation.
All part of keeping the pressure on.
Eps,KPIs are all part of the pressure protocol.
The pressure is all implied.
After a while you become immune and disengaged.
The CSM involved in this debacle is one such individual.
The company will lose its case for dismissal,offer him some bucks and he will retire.
A very expensive exercise for the company.
The bean counters will eventually wise up and the process will cease...hopefully
All this is run by the aptly named "Black Widow" and the petticoat platoon.
A totally dysfunctional group who are totally lacking in remorse or empathy.
"Malevolents with mammaries" if you will.
When applied to its full extent it can lead to dismissal.
It has been use over the last few years to "manage"undesirable individuals out of the business.
Invariably it is also used to threaten and intimidate....with fairly predictable results.
Qantas has never won a clause 11 in the AIRC.
Usually a fairly generous offer is made so that the individual is disinclined to return.
The companys own protocols are never followed.
The CCTMs are not very conversant with the finer points of Clause 11...hence their unequalled lose rate.
The current management regime is based on threat and intimidation.
All part of keeping the pressure on.
Eps,KPIs are all part of the pressure protocol.
The pressure is all implied.
After a while you become immune and disengaged.
The CSM involved in this debacle is one such individual.
The company will lose its case for dismissal,offer him some bucks and he will retire.
A very expensive exercise for the company.
The bean counters will eventually wise up and the process will cease...hopefully
All this is run by the aptly named "Black Widow" and the petticoat platoon.
A totally dysfunctional group who are totally lacking in remorse or empathy.
"Malevolents with mammaries" if you will.
Last edited by surfside6; 6th Nov 2006 at 10:46. Reason: spelling
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Well, this crew member has a real legal case against QF!
Any feedback has to be timely if that CCTM/ Manager heard whatever joke in the briefing, and did not address it then and there, but let the crew member continue off to the aircraft - then that manager has no case at all! he/she did not inform the crew member involved of the 'wrong behavour' at the time (yet had the opportunity), did not give them a chance to change/ apologise for their behaviour, so they have not addressed it in a timely manner.
This is a lawsuit against QF just waiting to happen ! Where do they get these managers from? And why dont they at least make them read the manuals the crew have to work to ! Jeez what a bunch of morons
Any feedback has to be timely if that CCTM/ Manager heard whatever joke in the briefing, and did not address it then and there, but let the crew member continue off to the aircraft - then that manager has no case at all! he/she did not inform the crew member involved of the 'wrong behavour' at the time (yet had the opportunity), did not give them a chance to change/ apologise for their behaviour, so they have not addressed it in a timely manner.
This is a lawsuit against QF just waiting to happen ! Where do they get these managers from? And why dont they at least make them read the manuals the crew have to work to ! Jeez what a bunch of morons
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QF Takeover?
A report in todays Fin Review(P.20)suggests that a private equity company has been conducting a a due diligence appraisal of the QF operation.
Probably why the share price has jumped a little.
Perhaps the takeover mob would sweep out the currwent management team.
Then again perhaps not...I can only dream.
Probably why the share price has jumped a little.
Perhaps the takeover mob would sweep out the currwent management team.
Then again perhaps not...I can only dream.
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This was posted on a tech crew site about the aircraft raid the other day and it is very good.
"cabin crew management have stood by their conduct and have not ruled out further aircraft raids in the future"
"Come in and shut the door behind you"
"Ma' am ?"
"Shhhh we have an issue"
"An issue? Do you mean a problem?
"No this Cabin Crew Land we have issues and challenges and...Anyway read the manual it's got all this yuk speak at the back under glossary. B for Buns etc"
"Now listen up-that's under L it means listen- somebody has told a rude joke at a meeting"
"A rude joke!!!!! Gasp!"
"Yes now we don't want to over-react to this issue so we are going to raid a plane"
"Raid a plane!!!!!"
"Will you stop repeating everything I say it's not an evacuation drill"
"Evacuate evacuate come this way hurry hurry form two lines jump and sit....."
"Look just be quiet help yourself to a miniature and try and get a grip"
"The Honolulu flight is arriving soon the C.C...."
"C.C?'
"Cabin crew, cabin crew under C. Read that glossary. This is getting painful.
No not now. Listen up"
"That's under L isn't it? it means listen"
"Yes well done. I said one miniature that's your third Now we are going to coordinate all 27 managers so they act as a team on this raid'
"Wow that's a first"
"What raiding a plane?
"No acting as a team that's never been tried before. Anyway if 27 managers are raiding a plane who will look after the office?"
"The other 47 managers and don't tell me it's going to be tight since we downsized I know that I deal with it every day. It's an issue"
"Another issue- groan..... "
"Don't mumble and put that meal tray down it's my breakfast"
"Now when the plane arrives let the passengers disembark and all 27 of you enter the aircraft discreetly and separate the C.C.
"I know that one Cabin Crew"
"Yes good have another miniature and a spoonful of muesli. Now ask them the list of prepared questions. Here it is"
"Hmmm question one Did you get the miniatures and the harpoon from Costco?"
"What! That's a private note give it back and don't mention the harpoon or the next ditching exercise will be ruined. Now off you go. On the way out get the big lights to shine in their faces and the handcuffs and batons and don't forget no visible marks. We don't need any more issues or challenges"
Hours pass and the raiders return.
"Well? Did they answer the prepared questions"
"Yes Ma'am"
"And?
"Identical answers to every question. I think some collusion may have occurred"
"What were the answers?"
"G.F. Ma'am.It in the glossary under R.
"R? And what does the R stand for"
"Reproduction I think Ma'am"
"cabin crew management have stood by their conduct and have not ruled out further aircraft raids in the future"
"Come in and shut the door behind you"
"Ma' am ?"
"Shhhh we have an issue"
"An issue? Do you mean a problem?
"No this Cabin Crew Land we have issues and challenges and...Anyway read the manual it's got all this yuk speak at the back under glossary. B for Buns etc"
"Now listen up-that's under L it means listen- somebody has told a rude joke at a meeting"
"A rude joke!!!!! Gasp!"
"Yes now we don't want to over-react to this issue so we are going to raid a plane"
"Raid a plane!!!!!"
"Will you stop repeating everything I say it's not an evacuation drill"
"Evacuate evacuate come this way hurry hurry form two lines jump and sit....."
"Look just be quiet help yourself to a miniature and try and get a grip"
"The Honolulu flight is arriving soon the C.C...."
"C.C?'
"Cabin crew, cabin crew under C. Read that glossary. This is getting painful.
No not now. Listen up"
"That's under L isn't it? it means listen"
"Yes well done. I said one miniature that's your third Now we are going to coordinate all 27 managers so they act as a team on this raid'
"Wow that's a first"
"What raiding a plane?
"No acting as a team that's never been tried before. Anyway if 27 managers are raiding a plane who will look after the office?"
"The other 47 managers and don't tell me it's going to be tight since we downsized I know that I deal with it every day. It's an issue"
"Another issue- groan..... "
"Don't mumble and put that meal tray down it's my breakfast"
"Now when the plane arrives let the passengers disembark and all 27 of you enter the aircraft discreetly and separate the C.C.
"I know that one Cabin Crew"
"Yes good have another miniature and a spoonful of muesli. Now ask them the list of prepared questions. Here it is"
"Hmmm question one Did you get the miniatures and the harpoon from Costco?"
"What! That's a private note give it back and don't mention the harpoon or the next ditching exercise will be ruined. Now off you go. On the way out get the big lights to shine in their faces and the handcuffs and batons and don't forget no visible marks. We don't need any more issues or challenges"
Hours pass and the raiders return.
"Well? Did they answer the prepared questions"
"Yes Ma'am"
"And?
"Identical answers to every question. I think some collusion may have occurred"
"What were the answers?"
"G.F. Ma'am.It in the glossary under R.
"R? And what does the R stand for"
"Reproduction I think Ma'am"
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i agree
all CSM's CSS's should print the FAAA newsletter about the raid and "pesent it in no uncertain terms to the b******s CCM whenever they try another stupid thing like that.
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Qantaslink Sunstate Airlines Interview-canberra
Hi Everyone !
I have an interview with the above this Saturday coming. First ever interview. Really nervous
, and dont know what to expect. A couple of you have been a really great help so far, but is there any pointers any one can give, or perhaps is anyone else going to this one ?
I have an interview with the above this Saturday coming. First ever interview. Really nervous
, and dont know what to expect. A couple of you have been a really great help so far, but is there any pointers any one can give, or perhaps is anyone else going to this one ?
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Mamslave,
you say over 100 casuals have resigned this year?! This year isnt over, but caculating over the past 12months......
I have heard of 2 in syd who went to emirates.
100 would mean just over 8 per month, more than 2 per week EVERY week of the year.
So this is correct???
I think with those figures i would have heard of more than 2 in the past year.
you say over 100 casuals have resigned this year?! This year isnt over, but caculating over the past 12months......
I have heard of 2 in syd who went to emirates.
100 would mean just over 8 per month, more than 2 per week EVERY week of the year.
So this is correct???
I think with those figures i would have heard of more than 2 in the past year.
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Mam Casuals
There has been a constant turnover of casuals this year with many seeking full time employment elsewhere. At the beginning of August - 80 casuals had resigned network wide in 2006. That number has increased in the last two months.
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Does not surprise me
MAM casuals are another way of exploitation. Who in their right mind would stick around with their conditions. Now, QF keeps training more. naturally the training costs will be subsidised by the various departments so the financial numbers keep looking good.